So I got the crazy idea to run 2 naked black sun enforcers with a 50 point iggy B. My thought process was "well the x wing dies too quickly. 3 green die, check. The x wing isn't very maneuverable. All one and two speed maneuvers, check. The x wing can't readjust its position after moving. All movement actions, check."

I went 4-0 today with it, against a varied assortment of lists. The first was a vessery/gamma/2x alpha squadron combo that wasn't super competitive, but fun. The second was a Kath/Iggy C/binarye list. Followed by a quad B, and then a Pablo/2x cartel spacer/2x binarye pilot list. Iggy was equipped with PTL, FCS, mango, AT, and hot shot blaster. The blaster is up for debate, but pulled its weight today. I seldom wished for a different upgrade in its place.

The black sun enforcers and the aggressor can switch roles, either being the bait or the flanker. With the variety on the dial and boost, it's very easy to slow roll, snap off a one speed hard turn, and then book it as fast as possible while the enemy bites on those range three shots and your own flanker gets behind the line.

Not to mention, the blocking prowess. S-loops are insane for throwing in your weight around while keeping your opponent guessing, and at PS 1, you pretty much nail them everytime. the starviper is literally everything an x wing wishes it could be.

I can't seem to find the part where this is an X-wing fix. All you've said is that StarVipers are good.

Star Vipers cost too many points to be considered in the same category as an X-wing. The X-wing is a pilot skill 2 and in the 21-24 price range Sure jousting value it should only be 20 points so you could field 5 X-wings and yes you can have as many Star Vipers as you can have X-wing when stripped of all upgrades but once you cross that 25 point line you start to enter a different point costing bracket. Being a 3 attack 3 shielded ship with 5-6 hit points I would say put it on par with E-wings and TIE Defender even though it is far the cheapest of the option.

But don't worry the S&V counterpart to the X-wing is in Wave 7 with Cobra Commander as your leader and 1st PSkill 9 .

if Starvipers are the generic X-wing fix then we've gone nowhere

they're two points overpriced

the characters are badass...sounds familiar...

Generic Starvipers are more like somewhat reasonably priced Defenders and non-Corran E-Wings IMO.

The X-Wing is in between the swarm ship and the heavy Defender/B-Wing/E-Wing category. It shares similar point cost and roles with the generic TIE Interceptors of its price range and the (post fix) TIE Advanced.

I can't seem to find the part where this is an X-wing fix. All you've said is that StarVipers are good.

It's not your traditional "here's how we fix the x wing" thread. It's an "this ship with 4 wings works exactly like the other ship with 4 wings should." Thread

I can't seem to find the part where this is an X-wing fix. All you've said is that StarVipers are good.

It's not your traditional "here's how we fix the x wing" thread. It's an "this ship with 4 wings works exactly like the other ship with 4 wings should." Thread

it's even shaped like an X

The starviper (and other cost projections) are only deemed under/over compared to the tie fighter, as it is considered the games "base ship."

Why is that regarded as correct? Why don't we measure things to the z-95, its equivalent? Or the x wing itself? It's in the box you need to play the game, why wasn't it regarded as ground zero? It's entirely possible that point costing is different for each faction, in so much as FFG has said exactly as much. "Scum will pay a premium for pilot skill" literally means "you can't compare these across factions."

The starviper (and other cost projections) are only deemed under/over compared to the tie fighter, as it is considered the games "base ship."

Why is that regarded as correct? Why don't we measure things to the z-95, its equivalent? Or the x wing itself? It's in the box you need to play the game, why wasn't it regarded as ground zero? It's entirely possible that point costing is different for each faction, in so much as FFG has said exactly as much. "Scum will pay a premium for pilot skill" literally means "you can't compare these across factions."

the z95 is basically on par with the tie fighter

the x wing is crappy relative to it, which would make everything else better by comparison

btw, you know that box you need to play the game? Tie Fighter's in it

The tie fighter's been a competitive staple since the core set days, it's a good basis of comparison for judging how stat-point efficient a ship is since it is pretty much the poster-child thereof

And the Star Viper is decidedly not point efficient relative to the tie, even at 23 it isn't but at 23 you're not giving up so much for the boost + roll and privilege of taking auto-thrusters

The starviper (and other cost projections) are only deemed under/over compared to the tie fighter, as it is considered the games "base ship."

Why is that regarded as correct? Why don't we measure things to the z-95, its equivalent? Or the x wing itself? It's in the box you need to play the game, why wasn't it regarded as ground zero? It's entirely possible that point costing is different for each faction, in so much as FFG has said exactly as much. "Scum will pay a premium for pilot skill" literally means "you can't compare these across factions."

You got a good point when talking about measuring something intangible such as value. In a matter of fact when measuring anything you will need a standard. Now there can be an awful lot of debate as what is the standard. Just like how the debate of a mole being measured to 12g of Carbon12 instead of Hydrogen. Heck even with simple measurements like length is up for debate as we have yards and meters as two accepted standard units of measurement for length.

So while the TIE fighter is for now the standard when comparing other ships to it does make sense. After all it is the lowest point cost ship. Also in the start of the game the TIE swarm was the top of the meta making it the most efficient ship. So keeping it the standard make sense. Does it have to stay that way, no. Will making the Z-95 headhunter or even the X-wing affect jousting rankings of the other ships. Not at all they would just have different numbers just like a mile is about 1.61 km.

The starviper (and other cost projections) are only deemed under/over compared to the tie fighter, as it is considered the games "base ship."

Why is that regarded as correct? Why don't we measure things to the z-95, its equivalent? Or the x wing itself? It's in the box you need to play the game, why wasn't it regarded as ground zero? It's entirely possible that point costing is different for each faction, in so much as FFG has said exactly as much. "Scum will pay a premium for pilot skill" literally means "you can't compare these across factions."

If no ship from any faction is as good as the Tie Fighty, I'll stop playing with the other ships and factions. If _every_ S&V list loses to a well handled 8 Tie swarm, this game becomes a 16 ship scrum pretty fast.

Now: ships can be lousey jousters and still do well. They just need a compensating strength. The Squint is not a hood jouster, but is a tremendous flanker. And the Fat Turrets are actually bad at Jousting. Weirdly, the ships best built for jousting tend to be kinda bad values.

Also: if FFG wants me to pay a premyfor Scum PS, they'd better be giving me some discounted pilot skills to go with it.

Maybe I just got lucky for 4 straight games. All I'm saying is that the starviper can do exactly what people wish the x-wing can do, and won't cost you your whole list to do it. As far as I'm concerned, it fills the same point slot - the 3 attack filler.

Well, this info will be super handy once Rebels can field StarVipers.

I would at least put fcs on them. But focused fire should melt them pretty easy, right?

I'm curious, is any ship considered as cost effective or more cost effective than the TIE fighter? If not then maybe we've been wrong this whole time...

Well, this info will be super handy once Rebels can field StarVipers.

Savvy commentary as always.

I would at least put fcs on them. But focused fire should melt them pretty easy, right?

Depends. I ran three Vigo+AT with a Z at a 16 players tournament to try the ship and if you can time your approach correctly they can be extremely resiliant at range 3: 4 dice+Autothusters with 5 health behind is not that easy to destroy. So, they'll automatically go for the Z at first. Once the first confrontation is made, all hell break loose: exploit this wonderful dial to come from all side and continue to tail your target of choice. Like with Interceptors, don't be afraid to run away for a turn or two.

At the end of the day, I was very impressed with the squad.

Xwing comparisons aside, it is good to hear that people are having some success with the generic starvipers. while they may be overcosted, as we all know, mathwing cannot tell us everything, and the manuverabilty of a vessel counts for a lot. So, is it possible that a ship can be overcosted but still pull it's weight? I think sometimes that can be the case.

See also, tie defender. another ship that is likely overcosted, but anytime I play one it performs well, tears up lots of stuff, and goes down hard.

I would at least put fcs on them. But focused fire should melt them pretty easy, right?

But you can't put FCS on more than one Starviper and only if it's PS is high enough.

I've had great success and a lot of fun playing Xizor and Guri. I need to pick up and/or borrow another 2 StarVipers to try some multiple generic StarViper lists.

Also, I see the main point the OP is trying to make and I agree with it. Smartass comments be damned.

I think high (or just mid-level) HP with AGI3 is really useful (with or without Autothrusters). While it may be roughly similar average durability to a B-wing against a wide variety of shots, a Starviper has a completely different defensive profile. AGI 3 tends to make 2-dice attackers bad, particularly at range 3. This is important because 2-dice attackers often have strong jousting values overall. You can kind of undercut their power with the high every-attack defense of 3 green dice. This leaves you free to go after the high attack targets while reducing the worry that the 2-dice support is going to eat you alive as you chase something important. So far we've only had a few ships fit this defensive profile, Aggressors and TIE Defenders, and those are both centerpiece ships.

I can't seem to find the part where this is an X-wing fix. All you've said is that StarVipers are good.

It's not your traditional "here's how we fix the x wing" thread. It's an "this ship with 4 wings works exactly like the other ship with 4 wings should." Thread

But that's not helping the X-wing.

[double post]

I never said it did, chief. I said it was what everyone wanted from the x-wing.

You said it was "the x wing fix you've been looking for."

It's not.