And IG88B had other interests to protect, yes, but they coincided with the Empire's goals.

For anyone who doesn't know much about IG's: there are four of them. B is the one we see in the movies. C and D, we do not see. A...A is there, but you'd never know it.

A was the first to come online. He killed his creator, and activated the other 3, splitting his own consciousness into them. Their goal was to eliminate organic life. They almost did. They started by injecting a virus into a few droids on the planet Mechis III: a planet which manufactured the majority of the galaxy's droids. The virus spread, and the IG's turned every droid into a murderer. The droids killed the few organics on the planet, and C & D continued production of infected droids.

B was their face, their income; by picking up bounties, he could supply the team with resources and it put him in a position of power. While aboard the Executor, he hacked the computer and found information on the Death Star.

After hearing about this, A hijacked a ship carrying the Death STar II's power core or main computer or something: I forget what, specifically. A slipped his own consciousness into the computer, and voila.

IG-88 now had control over the Death Star II. It was the one blowing apart rebel cruisers in Episode VI. Had the DSII not been blown up, IG-88A would have used the DSII (now full of infected droids) to wipe out all organic life in the galaxy.

TL;DR version: IG-88A controlled the Death Star II, and IG-88B wants to protect him so he'd totally fly around and kill Rebels.

My largest issue with a scum faction is, why would they ever fight? Their whole purpose is to make dolla dolla and control whatever shadow empires they can hold on to. The smart ones would not brawl with the Empire. They'd scorch a whole planetary network at first whiff of the Empire because if they don't, the Empire will. There'd be little point to risking whatever precious capital ships they have, when the Empire easily could and most likely would just send more ships.

Rebels and Imperials have clear reasons to brawl. Scum just want their money, spice, and an easy life, they are far more likely to flee and regroup then fight for a lost cause.

Bounty hunters fight for cash (mostly). Who has more cash to throw at them than the Empire? They could pay enough to get Boba Fett's attention.

Dash Rendar worked with the Rebel's on several occasions (for pay and personal reasons) and Han flat out joined them.

Just to name a few examples.

I think he's talking about fleet-scale engagements.

Sure, the Hutts or the Black Sun or the Zann Consortium or whoever might have the means and the ability to field fleets of capital ships, but they really DON'T have any motive to do so, do they?

Building a big fleet of battleships doesn't make sense for a crime syndicate - the purpose of the fleets we see in Armada is to wipe an opposing military force off the map, and that's simply not the objective of a crime syndicate.

X-Wing is totally different in this regard because it's a skirmish level game. Of course Scum will fight a handful of TIEs if the Empire cracks down on their smuggling operation. But if the Empire sends a battlefleet to subjugate Nal Hutta, the Hutts aren't pulling a fleet of battleships out of their rear ends.

My largest issue with a scum faction is, why would they ever fight? Their whole purpose is to make dolla dolla and control whatever shadow empires they can hold on to. The smart ones would not brawl with the Empire. They'd scorch a whole planetary network at first whiff of the Empire because if they don't, the Empire will. There'd be little point to risking whatever precious capital ships they have, when the Empire easily could and most likely would just send more ships.

Rebels and Imperials have clear reasons to brawl. Scum just want their money, spice, and an easy life, they are far more likely to flee and regroup then fight for a lost cause.

Bounty hunters fight for cash (mostly). Who has more cash to throw at them than the Empire? They could pay enough to get Boba Fett's attention.

Dash Rendar worked with the Rebel's on several occasions (for pay and personal reasons) and Han flat out joined them.

Just to name a few examples.

I think he's talking about fleet-scale engagements.

Sure, the Hutts or the Black Sun or the Zann Consortium or whoever might have the means and the ability to field fleets of capital ships, but they really DON'T have any motive to do so, do they?

Building a big fleet of battleships doesn't make sense for a crime syndicate - the purpose of the fleets we see in Armada is to wipe an opposing military force off the map, and that's simply not the objective of a crime syndicate.

X-Wing is totally different in this regard because it's a skirmish level game. Of course Scum will fight a handful of TIEs if the Empire cracks down on their smuggling operation. But if the Empire sends a battlefleet to subjugate Nal Hutta, the Hutts aren't pulling a fleet of battleships out of their rear ends.

Think "hostile takeover" of a rivals assets...like really hostile.

I could easily see the Hutts fielding a fleet to steal from the rebels, or broker raw deals with them, or being payed off by the Empire to double-cross them.

I can also easily see the Hutts getting uppity and the Empire responding with typical brutality justice. Hell, the Hutts are just brazen enough to try stealing from the Empire. As I recall, the Empire forcibly seized a good chunk of Hutt space. Page 350 of Edge of the Empire makes mention of assorted Empire/Hutt confrontations. I'd imagine there was more than one fleet conflict in the process. Contrary to what some people think, the Hutts did have fleets and militaries of various sorts and at various times. Wookieepedia has details.

And one need look no further than the TIE Fighter and X-Wing PC games for plenty of examples of Empire/Rebel/Pirate/Criminal conflicts.

Also, in gaming, there's little reason to not come up with one's own narrative.

Think "hostile takeover" of a rivals assets...like really hostile.

I could easily see the Hutts fielding a fleet to steal from the rebels, or broker raw deals with them, or being payed off by the Empire to double-cross them.

I can also easily see the Hutts getting uppity and the Empire responding with typical brutality justice. Hell, the Hutts are just brazen enough to try stealing from the Empire. As I recall, the Empire forcibly seized a good chunk of Hutt space. Page 350 of Edge of the Empire makes mention of assorted Empire/Hutt confrontations. I'd imagine there was more than one fleet conflict in the process.

And one need look no further than the TIE Fighter and X-Wing PC games for plenty of examples of Empire/Rebel/Pirate/Criminal conflicts.

I've played all the TIE Fighter/space sims and I can't recall a pirate/criminal fleet with anything larger than maybe a strike cruiser.

Including the Hutts, or the Zann Consortium, or whoever in Armada would be akin to including North Korea or Iran or France or Sweden or even China in a Cold War-era fleet battle game. There, as in Armada, there are two major players - the USA and USSR - that so dwarf every other combatant in military strength that including any other combatant would be basically pointless.

The Empire fighting the Hutts would be like the USA going to war with North Korea tomorrow. The US Navy would send a couple of carrier battlegroups over, wipe out any North Korean surface ships in a matter of days, and that would be that. Maybe North Korea would have some swift boats or submarines striking against isolated targets or raiding rivers, but that's X-Wing, not Armada.

Think "hostile takeover" of a rivals assets...like really hostile.

I could easily see the Hutts fielding a fleet to steal from the rebels, or broker raw deals with them, or being payed off by the Empire to double-cross them.

I can also easily see the Hutts getting uppity and the Empire responding with typical brutality justice. Hell, the Hutts are just brazen enough to try stealing from the Empire. As I recall, the Empire forcibly seized a good chunk of Hutt space. Page 350 of Edge of the Empire makes mention of assorted Empire/Hutt confrontations. I'd imagine there was more than one fleet conflict in the process.

And one need look no further than the TIE Fighter and X-Wing PC games for plenty of examples of Empire/Rebel/Pirate/Criminal conflicts.

I've played all the TIE Fighter/space sims and I can't recall a pirate/criminal fleet with anything larger than maybe a strike cruiser.

Including the Hutts, or the Zann Consortium, or whoever in Armada would be akin to including North Korea or Iran or France or Sweden or even China in a Cold War-era fleet battle game. There, as in Armada, there are two major players - the USA and USSR - that so dwarf every other combatant in military strength that including any other combatant would be basically pointless.

The Empire fighting the Hutts would be like the USA going to war with North Korea tomorrow. The US Navy would send a couple of carrier battlegroups over, wipe out any North Korean surface ships in a matter of days, and that would be that. Maybe North Korea would have some swift boats or submarines striking against isolated targets or raiding rivers, but that's X-Wing, not Armada.

And yet the Korean and Vietnam wars happened with China being a big part of the conflict. Big nations using "lesser" nations as pawns in a war (both official and unofficial). Happens all the time...sadly.

Just because a war is a losing proposition to the outside observer doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. If history teaches us anything, it's that it will happen.

One difference is we're still talking strategic battles. Of course the Empire has more ships than Hutts and would crush them.

But Armada is about very small units. Three or four ships and their fighter squadrons. Pirates attacked these all the time in the games! Plus, the Rebels are a very small force as well. It's entirely concievable you could have pirate squadrons attacking Imps for their own purposes (perhaps the imperials are escorting a large convoy for example)

Just because the empire has thousands of star destroyers doesnt' mean Zann can't fight them. Just that when they do, it's 3 bulk cruisers vs 2 SDs.

Think "hostile takeover" of a rivals assets...like really hostile.

I could easily see the Hutts fielding a fleet to steal from the rebels, or broker raw deals with them, or being payed off by the Empire to double-cross them.

I can also easily see the Hutts getting uppity and the Empire responding with typical brutality justice. Hell, the Hutts are just brazen enough to try stealing from the Empire. As I recall, the Empire forcibly seized a good chunk of Hutt space. Page 350 of Edge of the Empire makes mention of assorted Empire/Hutt confrontations. I'd imagine there was more than one fleet conflict in the process.

And one need look no further than the TIE Fighter and X-Wing PC games for plenty of examples of Empire/Rebel/Pirate/Criminal conflicts.

I've played all the TIE Fighter/space sims and I can't recall a pirate/criminal fleet with anything larger than maybe a strike cruiser.

Including the Hutts, or the Zann Consortium, or whoever in Armada would be akin to including North Korea or Iran or France or Sweden or even China in a Cold War-era fleet battle game. There, as in Armada, there are two major players - the USA and USSR - that so dwarf every other combatant in military strength that including any other combatant would be basically pointless.

The Empire fighting the Hutts would be like the USA going to war with North Korea tomorrow. The US Navy would send a couple of carrier battlegroups over, wipe out any North Korean surface ships in a matter of days, and that would be that. Maybe North Korea would have some swift boats or submarines striking against isolated targets or raiding rivers, but that's X-Wing, not Armada.

And yet the Korean and Vietnam wars happened with China being a big part of the conflict. Big nations using "lesser" nations as pawns in a war (both official and unofficial). Happens all the time...sadly.

Just because a war is a losing proposition to the outside observer doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. If history teaches us anything, it's that it will happen.

You're right, except...what role did the Chinese navy play in either of those conflicts?

It's significant that no modern war, outside of World War II, has involved fleet-scale naval engagements. There's a reason for that - to really fight a naval war, the combatants must have relatively equal naval strength. The ocean is big, but it's not infinite, and while fleets of ships can run, they can't really hide. The more powerful force can usually force an engagement, and when it does so, it will usually win. Sometimes, the superior power doesn't even need to force a fight - in both World War I and World War II, the German navy (with the very notable exception of the U-Boats) spent pretty much the entire war holed up in the Baltic because if it sailed into the Atlantic it would've immediately been sunk by the British Navy.

Armada is a game of capital ship/fleet battles. Capital ships/fleets exist to fight other capital ships/fleets, or, if none exist, support other military elements.

Even if one can contrive a reason for these criminal elements or lesser federations of systems to have capital ships, it's basically impossible to conceive a reason why they would be fighting the Empire or Rebel Alliance on a fleet engagement scale. The best you can really do is something like the Hapans, who had a fleet of ships protecting their isolated star cluster, but avoided confrontations with the Empire and eventually fought on the side of the Alliance.

One difference is we're still talking strategic battles. Of course the Empire has more ships than Hutts and would crush them.

But Armada is about very small units. Three or four ships and their fighter squadrons. Pirates attacked these all the time in the games! Plus, the Rebels are a very small force as well. It's entirely concievable you could have pirate squadrons attacking Imps for their own purposes (perhaps the imperials are escorting a large convoy for example)

Just because the empire has thousands of star destroyers doesnt' mean Zann can't fight them. Just that when they do, it's 3 bulk cruisers vs 2 SDs.

That's fair, and fine. I don't think it really fits with my concept of what Armada is, or should be, but I'm just one person and that's just my opinion. If there really are a ton of people out there wanting to fight Star Destroyers with your local bulk cruisers, FFG will hear them, and they'll accommodate them.

Think "hostile takeover" of a rivals assets...like really hostile.

I could easily see the Hutts fielding a fleet to steal from the rebels, or broker raw deals with them, or being payed off by the Empire to double-cross them.

I can also easily see the Hutts getting uppity and the Empire responding with typical brutality justice. Hell, the Hutts are just brazen enough to try stealing from the Empire. As I recall, the Empire forcibly seized a good chunk of Hutt space. Page 350 of Edge of the Empire makes mention of assorted Empire/Hutt confrontations. I'd imagine there was more than one fleet conflict in the process.

And one need look no further than the TIE Fighter and X-Wing PC games for plenty of examples of Empire/Rebel/Pirate/Criminal conflicts.

I've played all the TIE Fighter/space sims and I can't recall a pirate/criminal fleet with anything larger than maybe a strike cruiser.

Including the Hutts, or the Zann Consortium, or whoever in Armada would be akin to including North Korea or Iran or France or Sweden or even China in a Cold War-era fleet battle game. There, as in Armada, there are two major players - the USA and USSR - that so dwarf every other combatant in military strength that including any other combatant would be basically pointless.

The Empire fighting the Hutts would be like the USA going to war with North Korea tomorrow. The US Navy would send a couple of carrier battlegroups over, wipe out any North Korean surface ships in a matter of days, and that would be that. Maybe North Korea would have some swift boats or submarines striking against isolated targets or raiding rivers, but that's X-Wing, not Armada.

And yet the Korean and Vietnam wars happened with China being a big part of the conflict. Big nations using "lesser" nations as pawns in a war (both official and unofficial). Happens all the time...sadly.

Just because a war is a losing proposition to the outside observer doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. If history teaches us anything, it's that it will happen.

You're right, except...what role did the Chinese navy play in either of those conflicts?

It's significant that no modern war, outside of World War II, has involved fleet-scale naval engagements. There's a reason for that - to really fight a naval war, the combatants must have relatively equal naval strength. The ocean is big, but it's not infinite, and while fleets of ships can run, they can't really hide. The more powerful force can usually force an engagement, and when it does so, it will usually win. Sometimes, the superior power doesn't even need to force a fight - in both World War I and World War II, the German navy (with the very notable exception of the U-Boats) spent pretty much the entire war holed up in the Baltic because if it sailed into the Atlantic it would've immediately been sunk by the British Navy.

Armada is a game of capital ship/fleet battles. Capital ships/fleets exist to fight other capital ships/fleets, or, if none exist, support other military elements.

Even if one can contrive a reason for these criminal elements or lesser federations of systems to have capital ships, it's basically impossible to conceive a reason why they would be fighting the Empire or Rebel Alliance on a fleet engagement scale. The best you can really do is something like the Hapans, who had a fleet of ships protecting their isolated star cluster, but avoided confrontations with the Empire and eventually fought on the side of the Alliance.

And yet there is plenty of fluff indicating that they did. Sure, they didn't have star destroyers, but they did have ships. No contrivance necessary. I could easily see a Scum faction fielding various and sundry smaller ships. Heck, that could be the entire theme of a Scum faction; the whole lotta diddly principle:

But speaking of contrivance, I refer to my previous point: in a game there is no reason not to come up with your own narratives if participants are so inclined.

Including the Hutts, or the Zann Consortium, or whoever in Armada would be akin to including North Korea or Iran or France or Sweden or even China in a Cold War-era fleet battle game. There, as in Armada, there are two major players - the USA and USSR - that so dwarf every other combatant in military strength that including any other combatant would be basically pointless.

The Empire fighting the Hutts would be like the USA going to war with North Korea tomorrow. The US Navy would send a couple of carrier battlegroups over, wipe out any North Korean surface ships in a matter of days, and that would be that. Maybe North Korea would have some swift boats or submarines striking against isolated targets or raiding rivers, but that's X-Wing, not Armada.

And yet the Korean and Vietnam wars happened with China being a big part of the conflict. Big nations using "lesser" nations as pawns in a war (both official and unofficial). Happens all the time...sadly.

Just because a war is a losing proposition to the outside observer doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. If history teaches us anything, it's that it will happen.

You're right, except...what role did the Chinese navy play in either of those conflicts?

It's significant that no modern war, outside of World War II, has involved fleet-scale naval engagements. There's a reason for that - to really fight a naval war, the combatants must have relatively equal naval strength. The ocean is big, but it's not infinite, and while fleets of ships can run, they can't really hide. The more powerful force can usually force an engagement, and when it does so, it will usually win. Sometimes, the superior power doesn't even need to force a fight - in both World War I and World War II, the German navy (with the very notable exception of the U-Boats) spent pretty much the entire war holed up in the Baltic because if it sailed into the Atlantic it would've immediately been sunk by the British Navy.

Armada is a game of capital ship/fleet battles. Capital ships/fleets exist to fight other capital ships/fleets, or, if none exist, support other military elements.

Even if one can contrive a reason for these criminal elements or lesser federations of systems to have capital ships, it's basically impossible to conceive a reason why they would be fighting the Empire or Rebel Alliance on a fleet engagement scale. The best you can really do is something like the Hapans, who had a fleet of ships protecting their isolated star cluster, but avoided confrontations with the Empire and eventually fought on the side of the Alliance.

I think that while it's entirely apropos to take a lot of inspiration from RW conflicts - just the way that George Lucas too inspiration from WWII fighter combat - we should recall that space in our fictional galaxy is fundamentally different than the RW seas. In the SW galaxy, fleets can hide, and space is - to all extents and purposes - infinite.

If your RW logic were to hold, then it would be just as true for the rebels as the cartels. Why would the rebels be able to mount a naval offensive and not the cartels?

Sure, the Hutts collectively would be in a tough spot if they attacked the Empire, because the Empire knows exactly where the Hutts are (Hutt Space). But maybe the Empire treats Hutt Space the way that the United States treats the Middle East - having a pattern of alliances with some Hutt kajidics, but not with others, and not being particularly capable of identifying friend from foe.

There's also the whole "empire is spread thin" bit esp after they fracture post death of the emperor

As that happens and the scattered remnants band together, previously guarded assets become dangerously understaffed. Opportunity makes the thief

The villainous scum of star wars are open to all sorts of horrible acts provided the money's right. Pirates and local warlords may waylay elements of scattered fleets or maybe intercept an important political figure or general VIP. Or maybe it's a quick hit and run to cripple the greatest power in the sector (generally a star destroyer)

It doesn't even have to be a direct engagement, as all the objectives with tokens award points independently of ships destroyed. It could be a race to collect important Intel.

Hell, ANY of the sneakiness the rebels are capable of can be replicated by s&v

They're both scum after all

Space is the limit! (But hopefully not until after at least 5 waves...)

Including the Hutts, or the Zann Consortium, or whoever in Armada would be akin to including North Korea or Iran or France or Sweden or even China in a Cold War-era fleet battle game. There, as in Armada, there are two major players - the USA and USSR - that so dwarf every other combatant in military strength that including any other combatant would be basically pointless.

The Empire fighting the Hutts would be like the USA going to war with North Korea tomorrow. The US Navy would send a couple of carrier battlegroups over, wipe out any North Korean surface ships in a matter of days, and that would be that. Maybe North Korea would have some swift boats or submarines striking against isolated targets or raiding rivers, but that's X-Wing, not Armada.

And yet the Korean and Vietnam wars happened with China being a big part of the conflict. Big nations using "lesser" nations as pawns in a war (both official and unofficial). Happens all the time...sadly.

Just because a war is a losing proposition to the outside observer doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. If history teaches us anything, it's that it will happen.

You're right, except...what role did the Chinese navy play in either of those conflicts?

It's significant that no modern war, outside of World War II, has involved fleet-scale naval engagements. There's a reason for that - to really fight a naval war, the combatants must have relatively equal naval strength. The ocean is big, but it's not infinite, and while fleets of ships can run, they can't really hide. The more powerful force can usually force an engagement, and when it does so, it will usually win. Sometimes, the superior power doesn't even need to force a fight - in both World War I and World War II, the German navy (with the very notable exception of the U-Boats) spent pretty much the entire war holed up in the Baltic because if it sailed into the Atlantic it would've immediately been sunk by the British Navy.

Armada is a game of capital ship/fleet battles. Capital ships/fleets exist to fight other capital ships/fleets, or, if none exist, support other military elements.

Even if one can contrive a reason for these criminal elements or lesser federations of systems to have capital ships, it's basically impossible to conceive a reason why they would be fighting the Empire or Rebel Alliance on a fleet engagement scale. The best you can really do is something like the Hapans, who had a fleet of ships protecting their isolated star cluster, but avoided confrontations with the Empire and eventually fought on the side of the Alliance.

I think that while it's entirely apropos to take a lot of inspiration from RW conflicts - just the way that George Lucas too inspiration from WWII fighter combat - we should recall that space in our fictional galaxy is fundamentally different than the RW seas. In the SW galaxy, fleets can hide, and space is - to all extents and purposes - infinite.

If your RW logic were to hold, then it would be just as true for the rebels as the cartels. Why would the rebels be able to mount a naval offensive and not the cartels?

Sure, the Hutts collectively would be in a tough spot if they attacked the Empire, because the Empire knows exactly where the Hutts are (Hutt Space). But maybe the Empire treats Hutt Space the way that the United States treats the Middle East - having a pattern of alliances with some Hutt kajidics, but not with others, and not being particularly capable of identifying friend from foe.

That's consistent with various fluff I've researched/seen/read on the topic.

I don't think there's an issue with 'Third, Neutral Faction' in general, as they don't need to be a unified 'faction'. Thus, An S&V Fleet could be a corporate fleet, local defense forces, pirates, Black Sun, Zann, Hutts whoever.

I hate to say it, but the most obvious choice for a third faction in my mind would be the Yuuzhan Vong. They had ships of every size, analogous to the roles played by light, medium, and heavy cruisers/ships in both the Imperial and Rebel fleets. They would also be quite different than either existing fleet, probably able to conduct unheard of maneuvers and utilitze their bioweapons to strip shields and deal out critical damage quite effectively.

With that being said: I hope this never happens. Thank God the Clone Wars were cancelled when they were so Filoni didn't have enough time to put the Vong into the now official canon.

My largest issue with a scum faction is, why would they ever fight? Their whole purpose is to make dolla dolla and control whatever shadow empires they can hold on to. The smart ones would not brawl with the Empire. They'd scorch a whole planetary network at first whiff of the Empire because if they don't, the Empire will. There'd be little point to risking whatever precious capital ships they have, when the Empire easily could and most likely would just send more ships.

Rebels and Imperials have clear reasons to brawl. Scum just want their money, spice, and an easy life, they are far more likely to flee and regroup then fight for a lost cause.

Bounty hunters fight for cash (mostly). Who has more cash to throw at them than the Empire? They could pay enough to get Boba Fett's attention.

Dash Rendar worked with the Rebel's on several occasions (for pay and personal reasons) and Han flat out joined them.

Just to name a few examples.

Apologies, I should have clarified that I meant as a faction. They make 100% sense to me working for the Rebels and Empire.

Including the Hutts, or the Zann Consortium, or whoever in Armada would be akin to including North Korea or Iran or France or Sweden or even China in a Cold War-era fleet battle game. There, as in Armada, there are two major players - the USA and USSR - that so dwarf every other combatant in military strength that including any other combatant would be basically pointless.

The Empire fighting the Hutts would be like the USA going to war with North Korea tomorrow. The US Navy would send a couple of carrier battlegroups over, wipe out any North Korean surface ships in a matter of days, and that would be that. Maybe North Korea would have some swift boats or submarines striking against isolated targets or raiding rivers, but that's X-Wing, not Armada.

And yet the Korean and Vietnam wars happened with China being a big part of the conflict. Big nations using "lesser" nations as pawns in a war (both official and unofficial). Happens all the time...sadly.

Just because a war is a losing proposition to the outside observer doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. If history teaches us anything, it's that it will happen.

You're right, except...what role did the Chinese navy play in either of those conflicts?

It's significant that no modern war, outside of World War II, has involved fleet-scale naval engagements. There's a reason for that - to really fight a naval war, the combatants must have relatively equal naval strength. The ocean is big, but it's not infinite, and while fleets of ships can run, they can't really hide. The more powerful force can usually force an engagement, and when it does so, it will usually win. Sometimes, the superior power doesn't even need to force a fight - in both World War I and World War II, the German navy (with the very notable exception of the U-Boats) spent pretty much the entire war holed up in the Baltic because if it sailed into the Atlantic it would've immediately been sunk by the British Navy.

Armada is a game of capital ship/fleet battles. Capital ships/fleets exist to fight other capital ships/fleets, or, if none exist, support other military elements.

Even if one can contrive a reason for these criminal elements or lesser federations of systems to have capital ships, it's basically impossible to conceive a reason why they would be fighting the Empire or Rebel Alliance on a fleet engagement scale. The best you can really do is something like the Hapans, who had a fleet of ships protecting their isolated star cluster, but avoided confrontations with the Empire and eventually fought on the side of the Alliance.

I think that while it's entirely apropos to take a lot of inspiration from RW conflicts - just the way that George Lucas too inspiration from WWII fighter combat - we should recall that space in our fictional galaxy is fundamentally different than the RW seas. In the SW galaxy, fleets can hide, and space is - to all extents and purposes - infinite.

If your RW logic were to hold, then it would be just as true for the rebels as the cartels. Why would the rebels be able to mount a naval offensive and not the cartels?

Sure, the Hutts collectively would be in a tough spot if they attacked the Empire, because the Empire knows exactly where the Hutts are (Hutt Space). But maybe the Empire treats Hutt Space the way that the United States treats the Middle East - having a pattern of alliances with some Hutt kajidics, but not with others, and not being particularly capable of identifying friend from foe.

I didn't say that couldn't, I was saying they wouldn't. There just doesn't seem to be much or any value in a cartel or syndicate pissing off the Empire or Rebellion. One of the main elements to the, well, criminal element, is a desire to stay under folks radar, and if you get noticed, be useful enough to not get gutted by the bigger fish. This is actually what leads to some of the greater narratives, to my mind. This is why scum work for the Empire, and why the less heroic smugglers worked for the Rebellion. If you are useful, you get a blind eye. I just don't see criminals picking these fights and risking the wrath of tyrants or rebels.

I'm all for folks creating their own narrative, but ostensibly Disney wants something more cohesive, hence the purge. I think we'll see criminals in smaller scale and thus more profitable for less risk style roles.

I didn't say that couldn't, I was saying they wouldn't. There just doesn't seem to be much or any value in a cartel or syndicate pissing off the Empire or Rebellion. One of the main elements to the, well, criminal element, is a desire to stay under folks radar, and if you get noticed, be useful enough to not get gutted by the bigger fish. This is actually what leads to some of the greater narratives, to my mind. This is why scum work for the Empire, and why the less heroic smugglers worked for the Rebellion. If you are useful, you get a blind eye. I just don't see criminals picking these fights and risking the wrath of tyrants or rebels.

I'm all for folks creating their own narrative, but ostensibly Disney wants something more cohesive, hence the purge. I think we'll see criminals in smaller scale and thus more profitable for less risk style roles.

Right, but I think you believe these cartels to be much more limited than I do. Just like I think real-world/persent-day navies might give us inspiration, criminal cartels in the SWU are structurally different from the way organized crime groups operate in the United States.

The United States, as well as other industrialized countries, have a fairly robust monopoly on the use of force within their jurisdictions. Sure, on Coruscant Black Sun might be akin to Los Zetas in Houston, but on the Outer Rim we're talking more like Los Zetas in Nuevo Laredo, or the Haqqani network in Afghanistan. These people understand that money is the road to power, and that power is what is desired for its own sake. Where there is a vacuum of the monopoly of legitimate force (such as is provided by the Empire in the Core), as there is on the Outer Rim, then power goes to whoever has a greater capacity for organized violence.

Because the Empire is only vaguely interested in the Outer Rim, and only devotes some resources to it, there's definitely room for the cartels to attempt to compete, so long as the Empire remains unclear on who exactly attacked them and where those people can be found - just like the Rebellion.

I don't think there's an issue with 'Third, Neutral Faction' in general, as they don't need to be a unified 'faction'. Thus, An S&V Fleet could be a corporate fleet, local defense forces, pirates, Black Sun, Zann, Hutts whoever.

I hate to say it, but the most obvious choice for a third faction in my mind would be the Yuuzhan Vong. They had ships of every size, analogous to the roles played by light, medium, and heavy cruisers/ships in both the Imperial and Rebel fleets. They would also be quite different than either existing fleet, probably able to conduct unheard of maneuvers and utilitze their bioweapons to strip shields and deal out critical damage quite effectively.

With that being said: I hope this never happens. Thank God the Clone Wars were cancelled when they were so Filoni didn't have enough time to put the Vong into the now official canon.

(shudder)

If I weren't a friendly Sith I would have you disintegrated for that.

I think the largest third-party ship I've seen from TIE Fighter is the Mon Calamari light cruiser Falaricae in the hands of the Dimok government. Both the Dimok and Ripoblus had a few corvettes, some Escort frigates, and a assorted group of armed transport. Their primary fighters were Y-Wings and Lambda-class shuttles.

But that's not a fleet that could hope to contend with an Imperial battle group. Even if it does, why not just call it a rebel fleet, because all their ships are rebels anyway?

Im also of the opinion that scum factions dont really have a cause to amass large fleets, either. The Empire does it to enforce control, the Rebellion does it to resist that control. Why would scum? There is no profit in amassing a large fleet to crush anything- their aims are better served by bribery and manipulation.

Again, it can work in X-Wing to represent small pirate bands, bounty hunter groups, and smashing parties who are too inquisitive. If an Imperial fleet shows up Scum doesn't stand up and fight, they break and run and consolidate in another secret spot.

Im also of the opinion that scum factions dont really have a cause to amass large fleets, either. The Empire does it to enforce control, the Rebellion does it to resist that control. Why would scum? There is no profit in amassing a large fleet to crush anything- their aims are better served by bribery and manipulation.

Please read my post above.

Why would scum amass large fleets? Because on the Outer Rim, scum cartels are not like organized crime gangs in Western cities. They're more like warlords in failed states. They wield contested violent power in swathes of space and one of the contestants for power in those regions of space is the Empire. They most definitely have an interest in having fleets capable of crushing others - e.g. rival cartels.

Also, let's be real about the scale of Armada. The fleets that we simulate in the game are really not all that large.

I don't think there's an issue with 'Third, Neutral Faction' in general, as they don't need to be a unified 'faction'. Thus, An S&V Fleet could be a corporate fleet, local defense forces, pirates, Black Sun, Zann, Hutts whoever.

I hate to say it, but the most obvious choice for a third faction in my mind would be the Yuuzhan Vong. They had ships of every size, analogous to the roles played by light, medium, and heavy cruisers/ships in both the Imperial and Rebel fleets. They would also be quite different than either existing fleet, probably able to conduct unheard of maneuvers and utilitze their bioweapons to strip shields and deal out critical damage quite effectively.

With that being said: I hope this never happens. Thank God the Clone Wars were cancelled when they were so Filoni didn't have enough time to put the Vong into the now official canon.

Don't worry, it will never happen, sadly. I would've loved this. The world is a cruel place where people hate the Yuuzhan Vong.

Maybe since the empire is stretched so thin, these little scum planetary fiefdoms are actually able to repel and defeat an outer rim patrol fleet of two VSDs and a Gladiator. And if they do, they may not expect further imperial reprisal in years potentially. That would allow 'set piece' fights.

For most criminal activity, they want to fight probably as much as the rebels do: Very limited or not at all. The Rebels spend all their time up until Endor avoiding combat whenever possible, except for key raids on objectives. Scum could do the same, as pirates trying to steal ultra-valuable cargo or get high value targets.

Im also of the opinion that scum factions dont really have a cause to amass large fleets, either. The Empire does it to enforce control, the Rebellion does it to resist that control. Why would scum? There is no profit in amassing a large fleet to crush anything- their aims are better served by bribery and manipulation.

Please read my post above.

Why would scum amass large fleets? Because on the Outer Rim, scum cartels are not like organized crime gangs in Western cities. They're more like warlords in failed states. They wield contested violent power in swathes of space and one of the contestants for power in those regions of space is the Empire. They most definitely have an interest in having fleets capable of crushing others - e.g. rival cartels.

Also, let's be real about the scale of Armada. The fleets that we simulate in the game are really not all that large.

As somebody with a degree in World History, I can say that many ideas and opinions expressed in this thread are indeed supported with factual evidence. Throughout history, disadvantaged criminal/barbaric/warlord/tribal/dictatorial/minority/expansionist communities have banded together in large scale to successfully challenge modern nations.

There's no debate that the Empire in Star Wars is spread thin across the galaxy, and being so "spread out" comes with many logistical consequences.

• The ancient Western Romans were spread thin and let the many independent barbarian tribes overwhelm their European and African frontiers. I think it's very plausible for the SnV to pick-and-chose favorable engagements in the Outer Rim, and Armada can definitely represent that on a table.
• The feudal Byzantines were spread thin, were in a seemingly unending economic crisis, and (eventually) lost the war of attrition on both sides of Constantinople. The Rebels and Empire are heavily invested in fighting each other, so it's plausible that the SnV black market, backed by the Hutt Cartels, can economically rival the tired and taxed war-economies of the Rebellion and Empire (again, especially if we're fighting in the Outer Rim). Thus, it's not a stretch for the SnV to be able to, fluff wise, match the "points" of another faction's fleet in Armada.
• As a rule, Attila the Hun didn't have any siege weaponry in his horde, but he brought down castles by using mercenary, stolen, or improvised siege equipment. The SvN faction doesn't necessarily need huge, grand, technologically advanced Super Star Destroyers from industrially developed ship yards from their deeply economically developed planets; they can improvise.
• Speaking of big ships, there were plenty of pirates in the Caribbean that stole, maintained, improved (and in some rare cases, built) their own battleships. Pirate warfare meant having fast frigates to board and steal huge ships of the line that they could use or sell. SvN can plausibly field Large starships in Armada, and they have every reason to fight and try to steal other large ships in Armada.

The American Navy was spread thin in the 1930s, and in anticipation of a war in the Pacific, they rendezvoused most of their fleet at Pearl Harbor (and in hindsight, suffered dearly for it on Dec 7, 1941). Some people in this thread have suggested that the Empire could easily form up and overwhelm the SnV faction(s), and that doesn't make sense to me from a real world perspective, especially with the Empire trying to maintain a front against the Rebels.

Real world nations hire mercenaries who fight alongside them in big wars all the time. I don't see a problem with Boba Fett or IG being involved in 400 pt Empire vs Rebel games in Armada. If the price is right, they'd be there.

Somebody said something about the United States being able to easily crush North Korea with only a handful of military hardware, and that's simply not true. North Korea has the 4th largest pool of active military personnel in the world. North Korea has the #1 largest military in the world if you combine that with their reserve and paramilitary personnel. Our commanders have said plenty of times on cable news networks that it would take months to raise our "military readiness" to a level that could compete with North Korea, and that's including a draft (again, because the United States military is so spread out). I do indeed think that, in the end, we would eventually win in a 1-on-1 war against North Korea. However, I also think that it would definitively be one of the toughest wars in our nations history, and we wouldn't be able to do it without help from our allies.

Mikael Hasselstein's comments about how Middle Eastern warlords control land, collect taxes, and fight wars is sound, correct, and would make sense for SnV in Armada.

I completely agree with Killionaire's last comment too.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

TL;DR Version: Star Wars: Forces of Corruption wasn't a stretch by means of real world examples.

Star Wars: Armada is my favorite game from FFG, I have a lot of money already invested in both factions, and if they are thinking about bringing SnV to the game someday in the future, they can definitely mark me as an eager customer.

"I don't like scum!"

I'm sorry, i don't know what came over me.

Why might there be a scum and villainy faction in Armada?

One- They might not like the rebels being goody-two-shoes all the time.
Two- They might not pick fights against the Empire, but the Empire is still going to run simulations and wargames with simulated S&V as the bad guys. They will want to train and practice to fight against the Hutts (or whoever) in case they ever do get sent on a punitive expedition into Hutt space (or where ever).

Think "hostile takeover" of a rivals assets...like really hostile.

I could easily see the Hutts fielding a fleet to steal from the rebels, or broker raw deals with them, or being payed off by the Empire to double-cross them.

I can also easily see the Hutts getting uppity and the Empire responding with typical brutality justice. Hell, the Hutts are just brazen enough to try stealing from the Empire. As I recall, the Empire forcibly seized a good chunk of Hutt space. Page 350 of Edge of the Empire makes mention of assorted Empire/Hutt confrontations. I'd imagine there was more than one fleet conflict in the process.

And one need look no further than the TIE Fighter and X-Wing PC games for plenty of examples of Empire/Rebel/Pirate/Criminal conflicts.

I've played all the TIE Fighter/space sims and I can't recall a pirate/criminal fleet with anything larger than maybe a strike cruiser.

Including the Hutts, or the Zann Consortium, or whoever in Armada would be akin to including North Korea or Iran or France or Sweden or even China in a Cold War-era fleet battle game. There, as in Armada, there are two major players - the USA and USSR - that so dwarf every other combatant in military strength that including any other combatant would be basically pointless.

The Empire fighting the Hutts would be like the USA going to war with North Korea tomorrow. The US Navy would send a couple of carrier battlegroups over, wipe out any North Korean surface ships in a matter of days, and that would be that. Maybe North Korea would have some swift boats or submarines striking against isolated targets or raiding rivers, but that's X-Wing, not Armada.

To be fair, France and the UK possessed (and still possess) significant naval assets. Their surface naval assets likely a rival for Soviet surface assets (remembering that the UK and France both have had more aircraft carriers than the Soviets or Russians ever did - in fact, the French were building Russia's aircraft carrier for them!).

I don't think there's an issue with 'Third, Neutral Faction' in general, as they don't need to be a unified 'faction'. Thus, An S&V Fleet could be a corporate fleet, local defense forces, pirates, Black Sun, Zann, Hutts whoever.

I hate to say it, but the most obvious choice for a third faction in my mind would be the Yuuzhan Vong. They had ships of every size, analogous to the roles played by light, medium, and heavy cruisers/ships in both the Imperial and Rebel fleets. They would also be quite different than either existing fleet, probably able to conduct unheard of maneuvers and utilitze their bioweapons to strip shields and deal out critical damage quite effectively.

With that being said: I hope this never happens. Thank God the Clone Wars were cancelled when they were so Filoni didn't have enough time to put the Vong into the now official canon.

(shudder)

If I weren't a friendly Sith I would have you disintegrated for that.

Can't you at least Force Choke him a little bit?

Im also of the opinion that scum factions dont really have a cause to amass large fleets, either. The Empire does it to enforce control, the Rebellion does it to resist that control. Why would scum? There is no profit in amassing a large fleet to crush anything- their aims are better served by bribery and manipulation.

Please read my post above.

Why would scum amass large fleets? Because on the Outer Rim, scum cartels are not like organized crime gangs in Western cities. They're more like warlords in failed states. They wield contested violent power in swathes of space and one of the contestants for power in those regions of space is the Empire. They most definitely have an interest in having fleets capable of crushing others - e.g. rival cartels.

Also, let's be real about the scale of Armada. The fleets that we simulate in the game are really not all that large.

Im also of the opinion that scum factions dont really have a cause to amass large fleets, either. The Empire does it to enforce control, the Rebellion does it to resist that control. Why would scum? There is no profit in amassing a large fleet to crush anything- their aims are better served by bribery and manipulation.

Please read my post above.

Why would scum amass large fleets? Because on the Outer Rim, scum cartels are not like organized crime gangs in Western cities. They're more like warlords in failed states. They wield contested violent power in swathes of space and one of the contestants for power in those regions of space is the Empire. They most definitely have an interest in having fleets capable of crushing others - e.g. rival cartels.

Also, let's be real about the scale of Armada. The fleets that we simulate in the game are really not all that large.

As somebody with a degree in World History, I can say that many ideas and opinions expressed in this thread are indeed supported with factual evidence. Throughout history, disadvantaged criminal/barbaric/warlord/tribal/dictatorial/minority/expansionist communities have banded together in large scale to successfully challenge modern nations.

There's no debate that the Empire in Star Wars is spread thin across the galaxy, and being so "spread out" comes with many logistical consequences.

• The ancient Western Romans were spread thin and let the many independent barbarian tribes overwhelm their European and African frontiers. I think it's very plausible for the SnV to pick-and-chose favorable engagements in the Outer Rim, and Armada can definitely represent that on a table.
• The feudal Byzantines were spread thin, were in a seemingly unending economic crisis, and (eventually) lost the war of attrition on both sides of Constantinople. The Rebels and Empire are heavily invested in fighting each other, so it's plausible that the SnV black market, backed by the Hutt Cartels, can economically rival the tired and taxed war-economies of the Rebellion and Empire (again, especially if we're fighting in the Outer Rim). Thus, it's not a stretch for the SnV to be able to, fluff wise, match the "points" of another faction's fleet in Armada.
• As a rule, Attila the Hun didn't have any siege weaponry in his horde, but he brought down castles by using mercenary, stolen, or improvised siege equipment. The SvN faction doesn't necessarily need huge, grand, technologically advanced Super Star Destroyers from industrially developed ship yards from their deeply economically developed planets; they can improvise.
• Speaking of big ships, there were plenty of pirates in the Caribbean that stole, maintained, improved (and in some rare cases, built) their own battleships. Pirate warfare meant having fast frigates to board and steal huge ships of the line that they could use or sell. SvN can plausibly field Large starships in Armada, and they have every reason to fight and try to steal other large ships in Armada.

The American Navy was spread thin in the 1930s, and in anticipation of a war in the Pacific, they rendezvoused most of their fleet at Pearl Harbor (and in hindsight, suffered dearly for it on Dec 7, 1941). Some people in this thread have suggested that the Empire could easily form up and overwhelm the SnV faction(s), and that doesn't make sense to me from a real world perspective, especially with the Empire trying to maintain a front against the Rebels.

Real world nations hire mercenaries who fight alongside them in big wars all the time. I don't see a problem with Boba Fett or IG being involved in 400 pt Empire vs Rebel games in Armada. If the price is right, they'd be there.

Somebody said something about the United States being able to easily crush North Korea with only a handful of military hardware, and that's simply not true. North Korea has the 4th largest pool of active military personnel in the world. North Korea has the #1 largest military in the world if you combine that with their reserve and paramilitary personnel. Our commanders have said plenty of times on cable news networks that it would take months to raise our "military readiness" to a level that could compete with North Korea, and that's including a draft (again, because the United States military is so spread out). I do indeed think that, in the end, we would eventually win in a 1-on-1 war against North Korea. However, I also think that it would definitively be one of the toughest wars in our nations history, and we wouldn't be able to do it without help from our allies.

Mikael Hasselstein's comments about how Middle Eastern warlords control land, collect taxes, and fight wars is sound, correct, and would make sense for SnV in Armada.

I completely agree with Killionaire's last comment too.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

TL;DR Version: Star Wars: Forces of Corruption wasn't a stretch by means of real world examples.

Star Wars: Armada is my favorite game from FFG, I have a lot of money already invested in both factions, and if they are thinking about bringing SnV to the game someday in the future, they can definitely mark me as an eager customer.

They were discussing a naval conflict between the USN and the KPN. Directly comparing the immediate land warfare capabilities of both states is not hugely relevant in a discussion of the relative abilities of their naval forces.

As for the Middle-East and South and Central-American narco cartels... well, let's include much of Africa, too. Short version is that they pose a threat, but only in small skirmishes. Whenever they get together a large group to have a stand-up, knock-down fight against even moderately modern, relatively disciplined, trained forces, they get knocked down.

NATO forces in Afghanistan basically kicked the Taliban's forces out in a period of a couple of months (and then bungled the end game). The US-led coalition that invaded Iraq conquered the entire country in a period of three weeks. Executive Outcomes were able to succeed in defeating UNITA and the RUF in exceptionally short periods of time, without access to the sorts of equipment that the ineffective UN peacekeepers in the region had. In Nigeria, Boko Haram's ability to wage an open war against the government has been practically eliminated by PMCs like EO. Al-Shabaab doesn't fare well against the Kenyan military - and the Somali warlords who preceded them fared poorly against the US two decades ago. In Mexico and Colombia, narco-terrorists don't make a habit of actively seeking out and engaging the local militaries. And while they may win small engagements, they aren't assembling companies or larger equivalents (land war equivalent to the squadrons of Armada) and picking fights with the local military.

The last time I'm aware that a ragtag group of guys took a stand against a well-disciplined, well-led, well-equiped force and won was Dien Bien Phu. And that was 60 years ago.

Put simply, these sorts of enemies only become easier targets when they band together into one large group. They are much more effective as small groups scattered around, attacking only targets of opportunity.

To me, S&V makes perfect sense as mercenaries for the Empire and Rebels at this scale. They also make plenty of sense for attacking the rebels. But they make less sense for attacking the Empire (although for the right amount of money, they might take a swing at the Empire basically on behalf of the rebellion, but they're not going to stand and fight for long: If they start to feel like they're losing the battle or they're making no headway, they'll break and run. Can't spend money when you're dead. Of course, if the mission is just poke the Empire, they might keep on attacking if they think they will win, even after it would make more sense to break contact and cut their losses).

Oh...alright. But I prefer a more hands-on approach.

You've failed me for the last time knott!