I really like Scum and Villainy but only as it's own faction.

While the Empire did indeed take advantage of Bounty Hunters it was for specific reasons and not as part of Fleet engagements.

In the case of Rebels I am more amenable to having these armed freighters as part of their fleet since they will utilise anything in their fight against the Empire plus you've just got to have the Millenium Falcon!

I agree that it would have been better to have included Empire ships of this class such as the Decimator, etc rather than ships like IG88 and Bhosk.

I disagree that Scum and Villainy shouldn't be a part of the game though. After all if they do that I'll never get an official version of Drea Renthal's pirate fleet (CR90, Carrack-class Light Cruiser, Customs Corvette, Customs Frigate, Y-wings and Headhunters).

How can a few individual scum or rogues make a difference?

You mean like how Luke and Han destroyed the first Death Star? or Lando and Wedge destroyed the 2nd one? The fleet battle at Endor was really nothing more than a diversion to cover the real attack, namely the ships flying into the DSII to blow it up.

How can a few individual scum or rogues make a difference?

You mean like how Luke and Han destroyed the first Death Star? or Lando and Wedge destroyed the 2nd one? The fleet battle at Endor was really nothing more than a diversion to cover the real attack, namely the ships flying into the DSII to blow it up.

Don't take that one line out of context please.

The focus of this game is big capital ships and and lots of squadrons. It's a miniatures wargame, this isn't a hero's journey adventure movie, so having little 'hero' units buzzing about feels wrong to me when each is as powerful as multiple squadrons.

Don't take that one line out of context please.

I'm not, you asked how a single ship can make a difference and I pointed out two examples of just that.

It's a miniatures wargame based on Star Wars, so the hero is going to be a part of the game. Just like it is in X-Wing, or Flames of War, or Warmachine, or 40k... They all have hero units that are super powerful compared to a stock unit.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you that your opinion is wrong. Just pointing that most other games have similar hero units in them.

I could see Han and Dash rendar fighting in the big engagements of the rebellion, see lando at battle of endor.

My prediction is this:

right now Rebel Fighters are Super Solos that do well stand alone. Imperial fighters seem to synergize well with each other.

I see the rebel scums being synergistic. Buffing rebel fighters the same way Howlrunner can.

I see the Imperial villians being the super solos that are on par with Wedge, Luke, Dutch.

its a simple game balance thing.

hey boba intel says wedge will be on this capital ship our plan is to attack them in open space. 10million credits if you kill him..... bam boba fett in massive space battle. and if goes through the BH guild, you no the other BHs will show up.

I hope their is an animosty rule where if 2 Bounty Hunters are within band 1 of each other and their is no enemy ship/squadron, they attack each other.

FWIW after the fall of Coruscant there were a lot of warlords running around with fleets easily in the scale of Aramada. A scum faction is do-able in armada depending on timeline.

Having bounty hunting scum fight in engagements is not so different than hiring mercs

Given how thin the empire must spread itself to cover its territories I don't doubt at all that they hire mercs

As for giving boba or co a reason to exist in your fleet...well give him one. Maybe he's hunting the rebel commander and needs the imp fleet to have a chance at breakint through the escort. Maybe they're there to assassinate high profile squadron pilots

It's up to ffg to enable bounty hunters in character ful ways (probably through their single target damage representing them chasing specific bounties, or with something like Prey in warmachine)

It's up to the player's imagination to explain why they're there (or why some aggressor/firespray/yv-666 pilot is there)

You mean like how Luke and Han destroyed the first Death Star? or Lando and Wedge destroyed the 2nd one? The fleet battle at Endor was really nothing more than a diversion to cover the real attack, namely the ships flying into the DSII to blow it up.

I know, I know... Star Wars, Han Solo, blah blah blah...

I am on the record as being disappointed with the Imperial offerings in this pack, but I have not expressed my biggest disappointment of all:

Unless there is a big surprise waiting in the wings, I do not get a version of the Falcon with Lando flying.

And I know, I can just say it's Lando. But a hero Falcon made for Han is going to be built rogueishly around everyone's favorite smuggler. I wanted one that reflects General Calrissian leading the fighter screen and commanding all of those squadrons. Hell, what we can see of the Lando officer card in the wave two article looks to even show him in the Falcon's cockpit!

I know, imagination time. Custom card, house rule an ability, all of that. I was just hoping they would have thought outside of the Han Solo box when introducing the Falcon to a fleet combat game. Maybe they still are...???

General calrissian is at least showing up as an officer card in wave 2

Basically he gave the falcon back and got the keys to something a little more fancy

Not playing forces of corruption might disqualify my opinion, but for whatever it's worth, it felt to me like the the Zann consortium was forced into the lore. New Imperial craft were designed specifically for Zann to steal, and from what I've read of the campaign Zann does what any self-insertion fan fiction author does by being a pupil of Jabba's, Thrawn's personal enemy, and even stealing the Eclipse (letting it go not because Dark Empire says so it, but because "It's too high profile of a target").

I can believe in individual pirate bands but not an entire criminal faction. S&V works in X-Wing because it can represent raiding parties or a bounty hunter crew... apart from the mary-sue faction Zann leads, the only other significant third parties in the Galacitc Civil war were other minor governments. I feel they should get the limelight before any Scum factions show up.

I'd like to see a Hapan Battle dragon long before an Aggressor.

A thousand times this, except for the part about Hapan Battle Dragons.

Armada is fine with two factions. If there are going to be others, they ought to be from the new trilogy.

It has to make sense for FFG on a monetary level, too, and realistically how many people are going to play HAPANS or ZANN CONSORTIUM and drop a hundred bucks instead of playing Rebels or Imperials?

Not playing forces of corruption might disqualify my opinion, but for whatever it's worth, it felt to me like the the Zann consortium was forced into the lore. New Imperial craft were designed specifically for Zann to steal, and from what I've read of the campaign Zann does what any self-insertion fan fiction author does by being a pupil of Jabba's, Thrawn's personal enemy, and even stealing the Eclipse (letting it go not because Dark Empire says so it, but because "It's too high profile of a target").

Pretty much dead on. Fun gameplay, but that's it. And even then more than half their ships were just stolen from one side or the other (only the best stuff too).

FWIW after the fall of Coruscant there were a lot of warlords running around with fleets easily in the scale of Aramada. A scum faction is do-able in armada depending on timeline.

That's not really "scum", though, that's "Imperials with maybe a couple extra old Republic/Imperial hulls taken out of mothballs, and a mercenary fighter squadron or two". The vast majority of the warlords were originally Imperials; many eventually regrouped with one of the Imperial resurgences or another; and they overwhelmingly used Imperial equipment, personnel, and doctrine, as well as making claims to being a continuation of the Empire itself.

Scum as a truly distinct third faction would have...what, exactly? DP-20s, Marauders, and Interceptor IVs? The only ships above small size that wouldn't fit better into existing factions (or the Republic and CIS) are the Zann Consortium ships, which have exactly one source, and you'd run out of those in a single wave of releases.

I should point out that we really don't need a third faction yet

seriously, we're not even wave

just saying that if there ever comes a time, we're well stocked with awesome ships from discontinued models to mandel motors and their awesome creations

Scum as a truly distinct third faction would have...what, exactly? DP-20s, Marauders, and Interceptor IVs? The only ships above small size that wouldn't fit better into existing factions (or the Republic and CIS) are the Zann Consortium ships, which have exactly one source, and you'd run out of those in a single wave of releases.

Po-ta-to, po-tah-to. The warlords used a lot of mercs and non-standard equipment. Its not like they aren't reusing equipment for the scum faction already. If you wanted completely independent factions, maybe something like the Chiss? There are plenty of options really. Sith, trade federation, etc.

I should point out that we really don't need a third faction yet

seriously, we're not even wave

just saying that if there ever comes a time, we're well stocked with awesome ships from discontinued models to mandel motors and their awesome creations

Having a Mandalorian faction would be sweet. Not necessarily correct to the lore, but who would even care?

I should point out that we really don't need a third faction yet

seriously, we're not even wave

just saying that if there ever comes a time, we're well stocked with awesome ships from discontinued models to mandel motors and their awesome creations

....now I want them to make some Bes'uliik squadrons

I didn't like the inclusion of S&V into X-wing at first, but now I love them.

However, I don't like how S&V are implemented in Armada for several reasons. Firstly, the scum should be their own faction. Secondly, due to the scale of the game I just don't see how scum can compete with the Rebels and Imperials when it comes to capital ship combat. Third, I also agree that having single ships act as a squadron feels wonky to me.

Lastly, Armada feels more military to me due to the fact the sides are committing tens of thousands of servicemen to each fight. How can a few individual scum or rogues make a difference?

I don't agree with all of your points, but that one makes sense to me after a fashion. Seeing pirate fleets and corporate sector armies and the like would be interesting.

That said, bounty hunters and smugglers each have their own well established place among both sides of the galactic conflict, so I don't think excluding them makes sense. After all, a certain smuggler ship blew up the second Death Star and helped make the destruction of the first one possible. Nobody with a shred of sense thinks the Falcon wasn't an important addition to the rebel's fleet and didn't make a difference.

I will grant you that they seem a little odd when added to the scale and theme of fleet engagements at first glance. But at the Battle of Endor, I think it's fair to assume the Falcon had a kill count to rival any fighter squadron.

Thematically speaking.

I don't think there's an issue with 'Third, Neutral Faction' in general, as they don't need to be a unified 'faction'. Thus, An S&V Fleet could be a corporate fleet, local defense forces, pirates, Black Sun, Zann, Hutts whoever.

It's mostly since I think there's a lot of good ships that won't find a home without them. They'd either not fit in with Imps (who likely are going to be triangular for a while to come, just like how all Imps in X-Wing are sadly TIEs instead of Gun/Missile boats too), or be redundant with Rebels (Oh yay, MORE small ships functionally similar!)

Like. Where will the Dreadnaught fit in with the Rebels, who have two models of assault frigate, the MC40?

Where will star galleons and bulk cruisers fit in when Rebels have Neb-B, Neb-B2 and MC30?

Okay, so I'm reading lore reasons and marketing reasons for not having an S&V faction in Armada. The arguments contrary to S&V actually convince me in the other direction.

Lore

I'm not sure why scum factions could not have big ships. Now, I'm going to cringe if I see a salmon-pink colored ISD for Booster Terrik, but a scum don't need to have ships quite that big to make them fitting for the setting, but still to scale with Armada.

The use of the phrase 'military' suggests to me that many people here are thinking too much in our (present-day) world than in a galaxy far, far away. In our world, mercenaries do exist, but the Westphalian state system essentially did away with them, with states being the monopolies on the use of large-scale force. But the SW galaxy has a much different political structure. There are factions other than the Rebellion and the Empire that could afford ships at capital scale quite easily. The Hutts are the elephant in the china closet, in that respect, but you also have the Corporate Sector and the Hapans, etc. Beyond that, with the Outer Rim being like Afghanistan, Northern Iraq/NE Syria, the DRC, Somalia write huge, there's absolutely room for cartels to have capital-scale ships.

Marketing

Yeah, all that was said about S&V for X-Wing too. Guess what: S&V are a huge success in X-Wing. I would much rather they introduce S&V than that they scrape the bottom of the EU barrel to get all the weird and wacky ships that one might find at those depths. (e.g. Sun Crusher).

Still, there are some factions that are - IMO - too obscure (Hapans, sorry guys), or too bland (Corporate Sector) to warrant inclusion. I don't see a broad public going for them. However, I can see the Hutts and (other) cartels absolutely being a hit, the way that S&V has been a hit in X-Wing.

One objective I did have for this thread was to see if anyone had any Imperial preferred replacements for the scum ships? A bit hard without knowing the stats, but we can make some generalities?

For instance, I think the JV-7 Escort shuttles would be adequate replacements for Firesprays, given the two different arcs. And what they lack in warheads they more than make up for in laser batteries.

Lambdas, DX-9s, and Sentinel shuttles are also good candidates.

Classic problem of wrongly named thread. The title suggests a discussion about pros and cons about S&V, not on how to replace them. A proper name could have been: "Which imperial crafts could be stand-ins for the S&V imperials?" The forum user would regard the topic with a completely different set of mind.

Stand-ins wasn't the only purpose for the thread though, I don't mind the discussion on the vitality of scum. I bring substitutions up now, because I'm interested in what people feel they would like to see with substitutions.

My largest issue with a scum faction is, why would they ever fight? Their whole purpose is to make dolla dolla and control whatever shadow empires they can hold on to. The smart ones would not brawl with the Empire. They'd scorch a whole planetary network at first whiff of the Empire because if they don't, the Empire will. There'd be little point to risking whatever precious capital ships they have, when the Empire easily could and most likely would just send more ships.

Rebels and Imperials have clear reasons to brawl. Scum just want their money, spice, and an easy life, they are far more likely to flee and regroup then fight for a lost cause.

One objective I did have for this thread was to see if anyone had any Imperial preferred replacements for the scum ships? A bit hard without knowing the stats, but we can make some generalities?

I had been hoping to see the VT-49 right away. Its role as a heavy assault ship and patrol craft seemed to immediately fit Armada. I think it would be bananas to not see it in wave three. And with Vader arriving as a commander in wave two, I am hoping to see some more decisions to be made with list building and unique characters... Maybe use the good Admiral Chiraneau as the hero version VT-49 as well?

I had just already had this vision in my head of some TIE stands around a Decimator. I don't know the stats, but the Hound's Tooth appears to be the Imperial 7-health scum ship, and that one would be my Decimator choice.

I feel like the Decimator and Lambda are shoe-ins when we finally get a pack with true Imperial equipment though, and the JV-7 and DX-9 would also be great options.

I would actually be super happy if the next Imperial fighter pack included two of each of the following: Decimator, Lambda, Defender and Phantom.

(And I will beg and plead endlessly for a Lando variant Falcon... Could throw some E-wings and Zs in there if with it if you must.)

My largest issue with a scum faction is, why would they ever fight? Their whole purpose is to make dolla dolla and control whatever shadow empires they can hold on to. The smart ones would not brawl with the Empire. They'd scorch a whole planetary network at first whiff of the Empire because if they don't, the Empire will. There'd be little point to risking whatever precious capital ships they have, when the Empire easily could and most likely would just send more ships.

Rebels and Imperials have clear reasons to brawl. Scum just want their money, spice, and an easy life, they are far more likely to flee and regroup then fight for a lost cause.

Bounty hunters fight for cash (mostly). Who has more cash to throw at them than the Empire? They could pay enough to get Boba Fett's attention.

Dash Rendar worked with the Rebel's on several occasions (for pay and personal reasons) and Han flat out joined them.

Just to name a few examples.

Okay, so I'm reading lore reasons and marketing reasons for not having an S&V faction in Armada. The arguments contrary to S&V actually convince me in the other direction.

Lore

I'm not sure why scum factions could not have big ships. Now, I'm going to cringe if I see a salmon-pink colored ISD for Booster Terrik, but a scum don't need to have ships quite that big to make them fitting for the setting, but still to scale with Armada.

The use of the phrase 'military' suggests to me that many people here are thinking too much in our (present-day) world than in a galaxy far, far away. In our world, mercenaries do exist, but the Westphalian state system essentially did away with them, with states being the monopolies on the use of large-scale force. But the SW galaxy has a much different political structure. There are factions other than the Rebellion and the Empire that could afford ships at capital scale quite easily. The Hutts are the elephant in the china closet, in that respect, but you also have the Corporate Sector and the Hapans, etc. Beyond that, with the Outer Rim being like Afghanistan, Northern Iraq/NE Syria, the DRC, Somalia write huge, there's absolutely room for cartels to have capital-scale ships.

Marketing

Yeah, all that was said about S&V for X-Wing too. Guess what: S&V are a huge success in X-Wing. I would much rather they introduce S&V than that they scrape the bottom of the EU barrel to get all the weird and wacky ships that one might find at those depths. (e.g. Sun Crusher).

Still, there are some factions that are - IMO - too obscure (Hapans, sorry guys), or too bland (Corporate Sector) to warrant inclusion. I don't see a broad public going for them. However, I can see the Hutts and (other) cartels absolutely being a hit, the way that S&V has been a hit in X-Wing.

And never underestimate the desire some people have to put their own stamp on something. In Warmachine, in my area, Mercenaries are ridiculously popular because of the personalization factor. I can absolutely see some people jumping at the chance to establish their own personalized mercenary/pirate/cartel/madmenwithguns fleets.