Okay, so this is kind of an open letter/rant to the developer team. My question is simple: now with the Dúnedain, Noldor and Ents getting established as defined archetypes in the game, when in the heck are we going to see the themes of magic and magical artifacts getting a proper development? I know I've gone on and on about this with my custom cards, but as some may have guessed this is a favorite theme of mine, and strangely, one of the least developed in the game, so I decided to make a special thread about it. What I'm talking about is wizard-related cards, spells, Palantiri (actual unique, viable, PLAYER card palantiri), various magic rings, jewels, etc. Not only that, but the theme of magic artifacts being also dangerous and prone to corrupt its bearer. You would have thought that we would see this in The Voice of Isengard and the Ring-Maker cycle, not only with those titles but also with the Doomed mechanic, which would represent these themes perfectly. So why didn't the developers even consider this possibility? It seemed that in VoI they were pointing towards that (especially with cards such as Keys of Orthanc, Power of Orthanc, Wizard's Voice, please more of that!) and then BAM, Silvan cards galore, and Doomed gets relegated to Mirkwood Pioneers and whatnot. It seemed like a huge wasted opportunity. Probably the worst dissapointment I've experienced since Gondor supposedly being the chief theme in the ATS cycle. I am aware that Caleb and Matt probably won't reply to this openly since obviously they can't speak of future designs, even if hypothetical, but hopefully they'll know that this theme is rather important and IMO we should have more of it. I am also aware that the developers have been careful not to trivialize these themes by making them mundane and easily accesible, but again, we also know that in ME these things existed and were available to the most learned individuals (we know that there are many magic rings, even if they're hidden), but if there was a way to make them avalable while still make them special it would be awesome. Maybe you need to have an Istari or Noldor character in play to use these? Maybe this is the best way to develop the Doomed mechanic? I would love to have an actual deck based around these themes, maybe not a 100% but still having them being prevalent. Saruman hero would be most welcome. So, is this something the developers are aware of? Do they have any plans for developing this in the future? And most importantly, would you, the community, like to see these themes represented in the game? Please reply to the thread if so, so at least I can confirm that I'm not alone in this.

Spell absolutely. Artefacts, gems, items surely. I was suggesting even some sort of crafting, where multi-part attachments could be created, or attachments of attachments... Basically you could have the possibility to go almost allyless and with over-buffed two three heros.

That idea sounds really great! You would need a way to protect your attachmets from attachment hate though. Maybe an attachment that gives you attachments immunity to encounter cards? It would need an incredibly specific condition, but again, these items are almost exclusive to Wizards and Elves, so maybe only if you control an Istari hero or something like that. The idea of using some artifacts to then find or create better artifacts reminds me of MECCG and the testing of gold rings, which again would be a great idea. I didn't mention it because I don't want this game to be basically another version of MECCG, but they could certainly use some inspiration (and that is THE game they should take inspiration from!).

As of attachment hate there could be 0 cost "leather pouch" that would have Setup: Leather pouch can be chosen to be in your starting hand. Response: if any number of attachments should be discarded, discard leather pouch instead.

I mean, to make sure you save your gear.

I have to be honest here, I actually do not want this. At least not on too large a scale. While it would be nice to still get Narya (even though I don't use Gandalf hero), another version of the palantir as a player card that is a little more playable and perhaps a few other items I don't think it would be thematic to have too many magic items and treasures.

The whole concept and presentation of magic in Tolkiens world is subtle and mysterious and we don't even really see or read about it very often. Also I know that many people want a Gollum or Saruman hero or both which I also think is very risky and not in line with Tolkiens world. Yes Saruman was once noble but we already have a nice ally card for him that reflects him well. Gollum is just not a hero in any way, regardless of whether without him everything would have failed, regardless of the fact it is thanks to him the ring is destroyed, regardless of anything. He is not a hero, plain and simple. He is a corrupted and miserable shade of his former self completely enslaved to the ring and its machinations. Whether he redeems himself or not is a different question altogether but he is certainly not a hero.

Saruman as a hero card is at least feasible as long as its not in a saga pack as the timeline of the main game (non saga) is set back when he may not have turned yet. The only issue with this is that if released now it would be chronologically after the events of VOI and the ring maker cycle in which he is already secretly trying to breed Uruk-Hai and craft his own ring of power. We really needed to get a hero card for him then and there as now it doesn't really make sense..... Then again player cards are not really specifically tied to the quest they come with so it could be Saruman before the events of Ring Maker just given to us in a later pack.

So yeah I do think that doing this to a degree would be a good idea but if overdone it could be tacky and unthematic. I certainly don't want to see lesser rings of power, for some reason to me that just seems wrong

Hey, all the feedback is welcome. As I said in the OP, I wouldn't like magic to be mundane or trivial, but magic is there. There were lesser rings made by the elves prior to the rings of power (it's right there in Fellowship), so it's not something out of canon. The developers ARE already stretching the theme by making the Mount Gram quest for example, not to mention pretty much anything of the Angmar cycle, so making a couple of magic rings in addition to the rings of power sounds pretty feasible. Again, I understand your concern and that some players would not like to give Éomer a magic ring of valor, for example, that's why I suggested that these cards could only be played on a Wizard or Noldor or Noble, PLUS some Doomed drawback. But this is just the whole Steward of Gondor discussion again. If you think it's unthematic, you can impose that on yourself. The developers just make the cards from stuff that is in the books, and as I said, there were numerous magic rings, as well as a couple different Palantiri that still survived (Elostiron, Minas Tirith and Orthanc). It seems like a waste not to explore this and just make an awful generic Palantir card.

As for Gollum, this thread is not about Gollum hero and I understand both sides of the argument. I would prefer to actually have him as a hero, if only so that we have more options available. As for Saruman, we already have Saruman ally so the threshold has been crossed; I don't see any reason not to have him as a hero, obviously representing him before he turned (or even, while he was turning and no one knew).

Perhaps just one or two rings that must be attached to a Noldor or Istari....

Also I know they are canon but we have absolutely no idea what they look like, what they do or who might actually have them so all of this would be made up. Then again the developers are awesome at fitting in extra stuff that isn't canon and it still seems far more authentic than anything else set in Middle Earth so the rings would probably be amazingly done.

To start, I really like the idea of Doom mechanic used to represent the threat of corruption. So far it has been used to represent something like urgency, but temptation is better.

Second, the developers are already doing what you suggest. We have 2 rings of power. We have gandalf's staff. We have flames of anor and word of command. If I were a betting man I would put good money down to bet that we will see Nenya. This next cycle is about noldor magic and how it is represented by mechanics that manipulate the victory display. I mean come on, there is a ton already.

Third, what is with all the Palantir hate? That card is sweet. As long as you keep you threat in check (which is easy) you draw a ton of cards and see what is coming. Plus, the potentially corrupting effect is represented by... (wait for it)... raising your threat!!

In conclusion, me thinks though dost protest too much.

There are 2 things I don't like about the Palantir card:

1) It is generic. The theme of its mechanic is good, I'm not denying that, but the fact that it is just called "Palantir" when they could have developed 3 different palantiri each with its own theme and abilities seems, again, like a wasted opportunity. They did a great job with the Palantir of Orthanc boon, but boons are not as exciting to me as a new card that I can include in my decks and take wherever I can.

2) As an exclusively solo player, the Palantir is just not viable. Sure, you can design a deck completely to work with Keeping Count, but at the end of the day, you're wasting a lot of deck space just to get some more attack and defense strength, and there are many other, better ways to do this. Same with Palantir. You have to include lots card to compensate for the drawbacks of that card when you can just include some card draw and scrying, something that lore excels at. Sure, you could include both and guess exactly what you need, but then it becomes redundant and unnecessary. I know that you can make decks to work with the Palantir, but they will never cease to be experimental decks that just won't have a chance against harder quests. The only way i can see the Palantir being redeemed is if they made a victory display card that worked with repeatable scrying effects.

I wouldn't call 3 ring cards in a game called Lord of the Rings "a lot". A couple of unrelated spells are also not enough to develop a disctinct theme. Again, I know we have a couple spell cards here and there, and most probably more are coming along the way, but I'm talking about a distinct theme of magic, artifice and corruption. Maybe not as restricted as the traits like Dúnedain, Silvan, etc, but maybe something more like what they'll do with the victory display mechanic. Cards that clearly work with each other to develop a theme and mechanic, but that are still good, general purpose cards. I'd be happy if the only thing they had in common was the Doomed keyword.

Bottom line, I am aware that the designers have not completely forgotten this theme, and you can see it with the Palantir and spells, but what i'd like to see is more of a cohesive mechanic, that goes deep with exploring obscure theme and even some speculation (just like the excellent job they did with the Dunlendings, for example):

Also I know that many people want a Gollum or Saruman hero or both which I also think is very risky and not in line with Tolkiens world. Yes Saruman was once noble but we already have a nice ally card for him that reflects him well. Gollum is just not a hero in any way, regardless of whether without him everything would have failed, regardless of the fact it is thanks to him the ring is destroyed, regardless of anything. He is not a hero, plain and simple.

Gandalf had two ally version of himself before he became a hero. And about Gollum - there is a Grima hero. And even without him, there is plenty "non-hero" heroes. So your argument is extremely subjective at best.

Also I know that many people want a Gollum or Saruman hero or both which I also think is very risky and not in line with Tolkiens world. Yes Saruman was once noble but we already have a nice ally card for him that reflects him well. Gollum is just not a hero in any way, regardless of whether without him everything would have failed, regardless of the fact it is thanks to him the ring is destroyed, regardless of anything. He is not a hero, plain and simple.

Gandalf had two ally version of himself before he became a hero. And about Gollum - there is a Grima hero. And even without him, there is plenty "non-hero" heroes. So your argument is extremely subjective at best.

Saruman once fought against Sauron. Gríma once held Rohan´s honor close. I do not seem to recall Gollum ever caring about anything than Gollum and the precious. He seems at one point to be a little bit on a road to redemption, which seems to be nicely handled in upcoming Gollum/Smeagol card.

...and his road to redemption can be represented by a hero card outside the Land of Shadow. And please, don't tell me that in the game where Treebeard can help Frodo out of the Bree, Smeagol hero cannot be. He certainly can. In the very same article where Grima was presented, a designer wrote about a different course of events where Grima chose to ride with Theoden. Why there can't be a different course of events where Smeagol chose (and actually could) resist the lure of the ring and his dark side?

I've tried to use the palantir but it's just not very good... While I do like the idea of a deep scry on the encounter deck, the cost is so high it's essentially unpayable. The whole point of the palantir is that it's supposed to be tempting. As it stands, it's just not. And I'm not just talking about the threat increase either. I'm also talking about the fact that you have to exhaust a hero to use it, and this can only be done in the planning phase. It's those two things together that kill this card for me. If it was just an action and exhaust (not planning action), it might be playable. Or you know, not needing to exhaust your hero would be even better. For so iconic an item to be so poor of a player card is sort of tragic, I think we need a new Palantir.

With that being said, I am currently happy with the level of magic in the game. There are some spells, some artifacts, but not too many. I think that is about right for tolkien. Tolkien is about how ordinary people can do extraordinary things, and sometimes it's the actions of those who are humblest of all that are the most critical. Adding more wizardry would somewhat lessen that, I think.

I've tried to use the palantir but it's just not very good... While I do like the idea of a deep scry on the encounter deck, the cost is so high it's essentially unpayable. The whole point of the palantir is that it's supposed to be tempting. As it stands, it's just not. And I'm not just talking about the threat increase either. I'm also talking about the fact that you have to exhaust a hero to use it, and this can only be done in the planning phase. It's those two things together that kill this card for me. If it was just an action and exhaust (not planning action), it might be playable. Or you know, not needing to exhaust your hero would be even better. For so iconic an item to be so poor of a player card is sort of tragic, I think we need a new Palantir.

Try using it with Boromir.

um, no. Because frankly, palantir in a Boromir deck is asking to die.

This Palantir talk is going to derail the thread. But I like the topic, so I'm going to make a new thread.

Another thing which would be cool to see, and at least here I know I'm not alone in this since many other players either supported this or made the custom cards, is the last of the Seven rings of the Dwarves. Considering that we have cards "set" in the time period of the Hobbit I don't think it wouldn't be too much of a stretch, even if a few years prior to the story Sauron already had it. What do you think? Is the Last of the Seven untouchable for this game?

Actually, some Dwarven rings sounds totally cool. I wish we could go back in time and prevent Dain from ever happening (or at least change how he works), so that Dwarves could exist without him and be mor varied.

I think dwarven magic rings could be a good alternative to making non-overpowered dwarf decks. I mean, you can make them, but a new mechanic or archetype for dwarves would be cool to see in the future, kinda like what they started to do with the whole "mining" mechanic in the Morgul Vale.

And then again, while this game is chiefly thematic and tries to be as respectful as possible to the source material, it still is an exercise of exploration of the whole mythos, of making these "what if" scenarios and creating non-canon but still verosimile stuff in the universe. So yeah, if people would like to see magic rings and whatnot, I'd say go for it. And if people would think giving magic rings to Theoden or more "mundane" characters is unthematic, then don't do it. I mean, in this game it is possible to give Eomer a Palantir, something which in the book would probably have been madness.

Tolkien is about how ordinary people can do extraordinary things, and sometimes it's the actions of those who are humblest of all that are the most critical.

This is actually a really good point. While I agree that the message of the novels could be spelled as that, I don't think it should restrict this game at all. I always grow more and more interested about the more arcane aspects of Middle Earth... the magic of the Elves, the relics of the Dúnedain, the noble ancestries of some characters, the secrets of Orthanc, etc. These were important aspects of the books too, and IMO they should be properly represented in the game. I don't think they currently are, and that's why I made this thread.

...and his road to redemption can be represented by a hero card outside the Land of Shadow. And please, don't tell me that in the game where Treebeard can help Frodo out of the Bree, Smeagol hero cannot be. He certainly can. In the very same article where Grima was presented, a designer wrote about a different course of events where Grima chose to ride with Theoden. Why there can't be a different course of events where Smeagol chose (and actually could) resist the lure of the ring and his dark side?

Because the lure of the ring is inherently too strong? We could debate this into infinity I suspect.

I could ask for a Sauron hero as well seeing as he once did good work for the men of Númenor and he is one of the Maiar, which puts him in the same general category as Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, Alatar, Palando etc though not forbidden to gather power as they were, he could have seen to error of his ways and that of his master Melkor and chosen the path of light instead.

Maybe a Bolg hero; when Bolg discovers that it was Sauron´s master who corrupted the ancient elves, so they became orcs he seeks retribution upon Sauron (since Morgoth is long since banished to the abyss/great beyond).

Because the lure of the ring is inherently too strong? We could debate this into infinity I suspect.

I could ask for a Sauron hero as well seeing as he once did good work for the men of Númenor and he is one of the Maiar, which puts him in the same general category as Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, Alatar, Palando etc though not forbidden to gather power as they were, he could have seen to error of his ways and that of his master Melkor and chosen the path of light instead.

Maybe a Bolg hero; when Bolg discovers that it was Sauron´s master who corrupted the ancient elves, so they became orcs he seeks retribution upon Sauron (since Morgoth is long since banished to the abyss/great beyond).

It doesn't matter in the terms of this game, because this game explores stuff that falls under the category "what if not". For example, if we were to discuss the probability of Grima hero before he got released, you could as well say "Grima hero cannot be because Saruman's influence on him is too strong", which would not prevent him from being a good hero candidate, as well as the Smeagol is. We could indeed discuss it endlessly, but in the end, you'll turn out to be wrong anyways, because no matter what you say - there is always a way around it in terms of LotR LCG, because it's not canon.

Those two you have mentioned are far less likely, but still sort of valid. The only difference is that in the timeline where LotR LCG is happening both of them, unlike Grima or Smeagol, have no redeeming qualities.

Those two you have mentioned are far less likely, but still sort of valid. The only difference is that in the timeline where LotR LCG is happening both of them, unlike Grima or Smeagol, have no redeeming qualities.

LotR LCG is happening in the time between the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. What story in that timeframe do you have in mind for Smeagol´s redemption? I was specifically thinking about his interaction with Frodo during LotR.

Bolg, being a villain from the Hobbit, could easily have existed in the way I described, in that timeframe (now that we are discussing what-if-scenarios anyway).

And Sauron, being an immortal being anyway, in the light of the what-if-discussion, could have tried to redeem himself whenever (including the Hobbit -> LotR time period).

We could indeed discuss it endlessly, but in the end, you´ll turn out to be wrong anyways, because no matter what you say - once you introduce radioactive superheroes fighting against invading aliens it´s just not LotR anymore, regardless of how many times you say "it´s not canon".

Well, if for you Smeagol that could have resisted his dark side for the longer period than he actually did is equal to introducing radioactive superherous and aliens, then this conversation is over. Have a nice day

I never equalled those 2 things but merely pointed out that Smeagol´s resistance falls outside the timeframe setup of LotR LCG.

If the conversation is over it is because you just realized that, even if the premise is non-canon there are still some changes that you won´t accept (see I can put words in other people´s mouths as well )