So, a Guardsman can kill a Chimera with an autogun, manstoppers and a few talents that aren't all that hard to get.

Base damage 1d10+3. +3 dam mighty shot, +3 pen manstoppers, +6 pen tank hunter, +3 damage from the shield of humanity talent that adds +1 damage for every size category something is bigger than you (for +3 dam).

Final total of 1d10+10, pen 9. Enough to punch through a Chimera's side armor of 18. Given like, 35 wounds, you could kill a Chimera with average damage in six shots.

With an autogun. To the side armor.

This system has some serious issues, methinks.

Don't have the book here, but isn't Might Shot +1 for every 2 points of Ballistic Skill bonus? So a +3 Might Shot would be from a BS of 60? Does Tank Hunter apply to any time of weapon? Even fists?

Regardless, an experienced tank hunter with rare armor piercing bullets, knowing where to aim exactly on a Chimera to hit some important fuel line or ammo magazine? Doesn't seem that broken or out of character. However, if you want to spend all that XP to kill Chimeras in 6-10 rounds, go for it. How often do you think you'll be fighting Chimeras? How often do you think you'll be able to shoot uninterrupted at its side armor without being harassed by other troops or say the Chimera rotating 90 degrees? Free will is a blessing and a curse

Yeah, not that broken.

You're talking about a very specialized and experienced warrior. Some kind of action-movie hero (think "the Expendables").

Remember that this same guardsman can hit the ground with a single multilaser burst.

Problem is, it's not overspecialization. Even when not used to fight Chimeras, the autogun is still a completely viable main weapon, if an ammunition hog.

This is a total of three talents required, and good BS skill optional for maximum number of hits, which allow a schmuck with an autogun to take out an armoured vehicle.

BS 60 is no schmuck, that's a Veteran. Consider what a 60 does in other stats - 60 AGI is lightning fast, dodgy and stealthy. Toughness 60 with True Grit has about 18 DR when in crits (tougher than Chimera side armor, though vulnerable to multiple hits). Int 60 can recover 6+DoS with first aid. Will 60 with a few items and talents is statistically unlikely to balk at a Greater Demon.

BS 40 will have 1 less damage, 2 less pen, and will roll at 70 against a Chimera if using a half action aim in short range (75 with custom grip). So, 2-3 average hits at d10+8 pen7, inflicting d10-1 vs Chimera side armor. Against a TB 6 size 4 Ork, the damage will be the same d10-1, with a lower hit chance.

The lesson here is ultimately "don't present side armor", or "Bring a Lemann Russ".

Also don't forget, if a Chimera is loaded with troops, you are facing a broadside of 3 of its mounted lasguns, the turret Multilaser/Flamer and the pintle Stubber/Storm Bolter

It helps to just rule that any non-plasma/melta non-heavy weapon simply can't do significant damage to an armoured vehicle.

This system has some serious issues, methinks.

So if you go out of your way to combine a bunch of different abilities together to achieve maximum possible efficiency you might be able to take out a vehicle notorious for its thin side/rear armour in about 6 or so shots?

And this is an "issue"?

BYE

Yes, this esoteric combination of talents is completely unheard of. Who would think of taking something to maximise your damage output in such a manner, when your basic enemy is orks, which this setup is pretty much made to kill? Why, no, that's completely unheard of. No one ever takes the powerful, damage-increasing talents which you need to even scratch the foes official campaigns drown you in!

The real issue is that small arms fire can affect armoured vehicles at all, and that tank hunter is a talent applicable to any weapon, rather than a weapons' quality (!) that should be applied to munitions and weaponry, such as anti-material rifles, krak grenades and rocket launchers .

Yes, this esoteric combination of talents is completely unheard of. Who would think of taking something to maximise your damage output in such a manner, when your basic enemy is orks, which this setup is pretty much made to kill? Why, no, that's completely unheard of. No one ever takes the powerful, damage-increasing talents which you need to even scratch the foes official campaigns drown you in!

The real issue is that small arms fire can affect armoured vehicles at all, and that tank hunter is a talent applicable to any weapon, rather than a weapons' quality (!) that should be applied to munitions and weaponry, such as anti-material rifles, krak grenades and rocket launchers .

This. Also, because it's totally unheard of for a Weapons Specialist to take a talent for hunting vehicles in case he ever needs to, y'know, kill a vehicle in case the actual dedicated anti-armour guy can't.

Also, given the same stats as above with a Missile Launcher loaded with krak, you'd have Pen 8 + 9 for 17. Given 35 wounds and a maximum damage of 3d10+8 (+3 for The Bigger They Are for 3d10+11), and Proven 2, the missile launcher would take 1 or 2 rounds, depending on damage rolls, to kill a Chimera. Granted, that doesn't account for Concussive, which would likely neutralize the vehicle's crew for a round if it hits.

The autogun, with 1d10+10 Pen 9, fires 10 shots (assuming full auto), and with a good BS roll to maximize number of hits and then decent damage rolls, could hit enough to do it in about the same time, possibly a round or two more. This is an assault rifle equivalent that can take down an armoured vehicle about as well as the dedicated anti-tank missile launcher can.

With 60 BS we're talking 90 + aim & range mods to single shot with the krak missile vs 70+aim&range for the autogun. That sets the average for the Krak at 1 hit, with the average for the autogun at an ideal 4 hits. That's 3d10+11 vs 4d10+16, favoring the autogun. At 50 BS the comparison is 3d10+10 vs 3d10+6.

If you fire on front armor instead of side, using 60 BS, it's 3d10-2 vs 0. I wouldn't say that the autogun matches up *that* well against the krak missile.

My question is. What are you send them against that a player thinks this is a Necessity? It is only a problem if the entire squad does this.

This is the example of someone knowing exactly where to place their rounds, thus the extra pen (tank Hunter) and damage (Giant Killer) only should apply to the first shot.

1d10+10 Pen:9 first shot all extra shots are 1d10+7 Pen:3 Much more manageable. Both talents are about precision shots to weakened points.

Also I have a player who's starting BS was 61 (and they bought it up with starting XP so 66 when we started playing), the lowest BS is I think 42?

It should be impossible to start play with 61 BS with no advances. How on terra did a human get to be so good at shooting?

I remember reading that you can disable a BMP IFV (a long time ago so probably an out of version of it) by firing a burst from a 7.62mm machine gun at the wheel arch.

Being bullet proof is harder than it looks especially when specialist ammo is taken into account.

Severe mini-maxing was always going to be an issue when they got rid of levels. There's always a trade off though, hoping that that Chimera presents it's side armor to you without buying any stealth skills, or driving to make it happen, I'd still put my money on the Multilaser.

It should be impossible to start play with 61 BS with no advances. How on terra did a human get to be so good at shooting?

Start with 30 base +20 Rolled 50 + 3 From imperial world 53 +3 from Hunter Killer Regiment 56+ 5 from Weapon Specialist 61

You start with 20 base. 51 I could buy, though.

Yeah, 30 start would be for Elite Dark Heresy characters.

Characteristics are rolled at 2d10 + 20. The odds of getting a perfect 40 are 1/100 so even getting to 60 with characteristic advancement is difficult.

Yes sorry I was going from memory you are correct 51

Chimeras are not supposed to be impervious to heavy weapons fire. I don't know where anyone got that idea.

Only problem is that it's kind of hard to use automatic weapons unless you specialize due to that -10 to hit, so it's actually hard to hurt infantry with a standard guardsman in there using a multilaser or heavy bolter. There's no 'wide burst' option that actually enhances your accuracy vs. single shot.