With reading the Sourcebook Stay on Target, I have a semi-serious question: Since the Z-95 Headhunter was "upgraded", would the V-Wing benefit from such an upgrade?

I'm thinking it would benefit from such an operation. Increasing the handling and/or speed will give the fighter a run on the A-wing, while adding a hyperdrive and navicomputer will offer operational mobility. While this might not be feasible for the greater conflict, I feel that a small cell that runs across a Clone Wars cache of these fighters would have an interesting opportunity.

Has anyone comes across this before?

From what I understand, at least in the Legends continuity, there were V-Wings modified with hyperdrives and navicomputers that served as escorts for Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine's shuttle (although their navicomputers might have been slaved to the shuttle) late in the Clone Wars.

There is only one V-wing... it does not fly in space...

From what I understand, at least in the Legends continuity, there were V-Wings modified with hyperdrives and navicomputers that served as escorts for Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine's shuttle (although their navicomputers might have been slaved to the shuttle) late in the Clone Wars.

It's not Legends, you see them escorting his ship to Mustafar near the end of Episode III, and no carrier is shown.

As for the OP, although I can't think of any incident involving V-Wings in particular, plenty of other Clone Wars-era material shows up in Rebel hands. Y-Wings were originally Republican, a Lucrehulk (the Trade Federation freighter-battleships) was used in one of the attacks on the DS I, and the Dreadnaught was the basis for the Alliance Assault Frigate program. I believe some of the Separatist holdouts even modified Vulture droids to hold a sentient pilot in a very cramped cockpit, so that they could be flown without the master control signal that Vader disabled in Episode III.

In my own campaigns, which are set in the "Dark Times" between Episodes III and IV, the Empire is still phasing out old Republican ships and starfighters, while the precursors to the Alliance will use anything they can get their hands on, especially caches of old Separatist or Republic militia material.

From what I understand, at least in the Legends continuity, there were V-Wings modified with hyperdrives and navicomputers that served as escorts for Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine's shuttle (although their navicomputers might have been slaved to the shuttle) late in the Clone Wars.

Those V-Wings had relatively angular forward hulls, similar to the Delta fighter and the fighters flown by Kenobi and Skywalker in ROTS. They probably used hyperspace rings..

From what I understand, at least in the Legends continuity, there were V-Wings modified with hyperdrives and navicomputers that served as escorts for Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine's shuttle (although their navicomputers might have been slaved to the shuttle) late in the Clone Wars.

It's not Legends, you see them escorting his ship to Mustafar near the end of Episode III, and no carrier is shown.

[...]

In my own campaigns, which are set in the "Dark Times" between Episodes III and IV, the Empire is still phasing out old Republican ships and starfighters, while the precursors to the Alliance will use anything they can get their hands on, especially caches of old Separatist or Republic militia material.

By the time of "Lords of the Sith", which is set just a few years after Ep III, the Empire is still using V-Wings, This is before they're roles were filled by TIE fighters.

In any case, as I recall, the explanation was not that they were using hyperspace rings (which makes sense, of course) but that they were actually equipped with hyperdrives. (If I'm the Emperor, I wouldn't want my escorts to be tied to something that hangs around defenseless in space and could easily be destroyed, even accidentally, thereby stranding my escorts.)

The V-Wing is a solidly Imperial craft by the time the Rebel Alliance really gets up and running. The Z-95 is a lot sturdier in comparison, and probably much easier to acquire through various channels since it's not as affiliated with a specific military outfit (in this case, the Empire) as the V-Wing was.

So while the V-Wing could be retro-fitted, at this point it'd be an insanely expensive custom job, where the Z-95 Heavy had the benefit of being an Alliance-sponsored refit initiative.

Also it's worth noting the Z-95 is stupid popular. I get the feeling Incom/Subpro was selling it to anyone with credits and flying the republic flag. By extension by civil war times you probably have millions of qualified Z-95 pilots in circulation throughout the galaxy. So there's a clear and present market for a rebuild of the Z-95.

By comparison most of the V-wing pilots were either clones and.... did whatever clones do when they retire them out.... or were fresh newbies that were around long enough the majority of them just transitioned to the TIE series. So less of a market.

Also it's worth noting the Z-95 is stupid popular. I get the feeling Incom/Subpro was selling it to anyone with credits and flying the republic flag. By extension by civil war times you probably have millions of qualified Z-95 pilots in circulation throughout the galaxy. So there's a clear and present market for a rebuild of the Z-95.

By comparison most of the V-wing pilots were either clones and.... did whatever clones do when they retire them out.... or were fresh newbies that were around long enough the majority of them just transitioned to the TIE series. So less of a market.

The V-Wing is a solidly Imperial craft by the time the Rebel Alliance really gets up and running. The Z-95 is a lot sturdier in comparison, and probably much easier to acquire through various channels since it's not as affiliated with a specific military outfit (in this case, the Empire) as the V-Wing was.

So while the V-Wing could be retro-fitted, at this point it'd be an insanely expensive custom job, where the Z-95 Heavy had the benefit of being an Alliance-sponsored refit initiative.

I'm not too sure about that, but it makes sense for the V-Wing to be more tightly regulated since it was a "premier" fighter for the Empire.

Good points here. It just felt like the V-Wing could be worthwhile fighter if modified. The Z-95 has the advantages of being both ubiquitous before and during the Clone Wars as well as being obsolete by the time the TIE fighter is brought into production and distribution.

That goes double since the V-Wing was a very finicky fighter that requires specialized knowledge. The only real similarity between the two fighters is that they have a concussion missile launcher, but since missiles are considered to be restricted in the Empire it was a mitigated risk.

Let me ask this question: As a player, what would be (your) recommended course of action if the GM lets your group run across a cache of V-Wings? This also include the droids to help support the fighters (but no munitions).

This can include multiple responses if there are different characters in play, as well.

Since this thread is in the Age of Rebellion subforum....

I would pack the V-Wings up and send them to the rebel fleet (or have them pick them up). They can probably be put to good use flying from Nebulons or for system defense forces, where their lack of an integrated hyperdrive is not an issue. Some of the ships might need to be instantly cannibalized to ensure a good supply of spares for the remainder. But they have engines and guns and that should be good enough for the rebels. If the rebels want to upgrade them, by all means.

I imagine a well-led squadron of V-Wings flying in direct support of a Nebulon (meaning close enough to take advantage of the Nebulon's anti-fighter weapons) would be murder on slower Imperial ships like TIE Bombers - and can probably put up a good fight against TIE Fighters. Compared to the swarms of droid fighters and bombers the V-Wing was designed to combat, the TIEs should make nice, fat targets.

Probably not the sort of craft you want to have flying unsupported against swarms of TIEs, though. But if nothing else, the V-Wings can be used as target drones and training craft.

So, V-Wing=Potent close defense craft, target drone, trainer. (Imagine Luke getting a training flight on a V-Wing before being cleared to fly an X-Wing against the Death Star... otherwise his first flight in an X-Wing would be his first flight in space!)

Rebel fighter doctrine doesn't deploy non-hyperdrive equipped fighters on board fleet vessels. They probably deploy some in the Sector forces though.

Let me ask this question: As a player, what would be (your) recommended course of action if the GM lets your group run across a cache of V-Wings? This also include the droids to help support the fighters (but no munitions).

This can include multiple responses if there are different characters in play, as well.

As a player... there's a lot to consider that isn't included in that question....

As a GM... If I had time I'd love to make 5ish adventure campaign putting the players in the role of TIE pilots. Needless to say if you want to make your campaign a V-wing campaign, I'll totally back you up. Just make sure the players know that too so they can spec accordingly. Likewise I'd also do what I'd do with my TIE campaign and ensure that in addition to the players getting ground crew they'd also get additional pilots so they can run Squadron rules and not get obliterated on sortie 1.

As for mods, I'd allow modifications using existing rules, but I don't think I'd go so far as making a rebuild version of the V-wing. Honestly, with a weapons upgrade and some other minor tweaks it'd be plenty competitive as is.

On a related note: have you ever heard of the Graveyard of Alderaan adventure module? That thing is crazy and would totally set up the situation you're talking about.

A little off-topic, but...

Does anyone else think the new T-70 X-wings in the upcoming movie look like Z-95's with an S-foil? Except for the split wing, and a more flattened and squarish cockpit and rear fuselage, they look almost identical. To me, they look a lot more like a Z-95 than they do the T-65. I'm wondering if this was intentional.

A little off-topic, but...

Does anyone else think the new T-70 X-wings in the upcoming movie look like Z-95's with an S-foil? Except for the split wing, and a more flattened and squarish cockpit and rear fuselage, they look almost identical. To me, they look a lot more like a Z-95 than they do the T-65. I'm wondering if this was intentional.

Very intentional. And not at all intentional

It's an odd artifact really. The original Z-95 description was actually supposed to resemble an F-14. WEG, not wanting to spend money on an artist to make that happen, instead recycled some of the old concept art for the x-wing. Since WEG was essentially writing the book back then, the concept as Z-95 stuck.

TFA (and oddly Rebels too) decided to go back and use that early concept art as the basis for the Film's overall look as a way of ensuring a certain visual continuity. Since the early X-wing designs were actually smoother and more aerodynamic looking, they had a more "advanced" look then the original finalized X-wing. As a result, a little polish on that concept gives you something that looks like a "new" version of the X-wing.

(Image: Original concept art of an X-wing showing sleek lines and a more aerodynamic fuselage. Used by WEG as the "Z-95" and also the inspiration for the T-70 X-wing)

Edit: Ninja'd by the Ghost.

A little off-topic, but...

Does anyone else think the new T-70 X-wings in the upcoming movie look like Z-95's with an S-foil? Except for the split wing, and a more flattened and squarish cockpit and rear fuselage, they look almost identical. To me, they look a lot more like a Z-95 than they do the T-65. I'm wondering if this was intentional.

That was intentional.Both designs (the z-95 and the T-70) were based on Ralph Mcquarrie's original design of what would later become the X-Wing .

Very cool! At least I wasn't just imagining it It makes you wonder whether or not they'll have Z-95's in one of the new movies (or Rebels), and whether or not they'll redesign it to look different from the original X-wing concept art. It might confuse people if they look too much alike.

Well technically Clone Wars already did it. Z-95s in that series look like this:

I would have thought that there would have numerous V-wings taken out of service as the TIE was introduced. It makes sense unless every V-wing was "flown 'til blown" and even the Empire couldn't maintain the needed numbers of pilots in that case.

I would have thought that there would have numerous V-wings taken out of service as the TIE was introduced. It makes sense unless every V-wing was "flown 'til blown" and even the Empire couldn't maintain the needed numbers of pilots in that case.

Maybe with the shift toward large battleships and away from fights and bombers the empire decided sending the v-wings to the bone yard was more cost effective from a political position.

I mean it's not so far fetched "eliminating the astromech requirement and hyperdrive expenses in our fighters will show a savings of 345 billion credits over the next 10 years through reductions in maintenance costs alone!"

I mean it's not so far fetched "eliminating the astromech requirement and hyperdrive expenses in our fighters will show a savings of 345 billion credits over the next 10 years through reductions in maintenance costs alone!"

Emperor Palpatine continues to do away with the excess spending of the corrupt and bloated Republic! No longer will taxpayers credits be wasted!

I would have thought that there would have numerous V-wings taken out of service as the TIE was introduced. It makes sense unless every V-wing was "flown 'til blown" and even the Empire couldn't maintain the needed numbers of pilots in that case.

Maybe with the shift toward large battleships and away from fights and bombers the empire decided sending the v-wings to the bone yard was more cost effective from a political position.

I mean it's not so far fetched "eliminating the astromech requirement and hyperdrive expenses in our fighters will show a savings of 345 billion credits over the next 10 years through reductions in maintenance costs alone!"

My point was that it shouldn't be too far-fetched to find old V-wings that could be refurbished and put back into action. It's possible that Imperial Customs and the Sector Rangers still use them even if the Navy has gone over to TIEs. If nothing else, they should be pretty popular in the Corporate Sector.

I would have thought that there would have numerous V-wings taken out of service as the TIE was introduced. It makes sense unless every V-wing was "flown 'til blown" and even the Empire couldn't maintain the needed numbers of pilots in that case.

Maybe with the shift toward large battleships and away from fights and bombers the empire decided sending the v-wings to the bone yard was more cost effective from a political position.

I mean it's not so far fetched "eliminating the astromech requirement and hyperdrive expenses in our fighters will show a savings of 345 billion credits over the next 10 years through reductions in maintenance costs alone!"

The only trouble with that theory is that the Empire isn't real big on cutting military spending or military savings.

The Empire wants extravagance. Every military decision the Empire makes is inherently extravagant. Only the Empire would devise a battle station... housing a superweapon... with a hyperdrive! And then when they decided that the Imperial- class Star Destroyer - already the largest military vessel in the known galaxy - wasn't large enough, they built the Executor -class Super Star Destroyer that was, IIRC, something like 17 times longer than an Imperial -class Star Destroyer. And if that wasn't enough, they went and make the most bonkers starfighters in the galaxy: the TIE Defender and the Missile Boat.

The only reason the Empire would cut spending on a starfighter is so they can spend even more on something else.

I would have thought that there would have numerous V-wings taken out of service as the TIE was introduced. It makes sense unless every V-wing was "flown 'til blown" and even the Empire couldn't maintain the needed numbers of pilots in that case.

Maybe with the shift toward large battleships and away from fights and bombers the empire decided sending the v-wings to the bone yard was more cost effective from a political position.

I mean it's not so far fetched "eliminating the astromech requirement and hyperdrive expenses in our fighters will show a savings of 345 billion credits over the next 10 years through reductions in maintenance costs alone!"

The only trouble with that theory is that the Empire isn't real big on cutting military spending or military savings.

The Empire wants extravagance. Every military decision the Empire makes is inherently extravagant. Only the Empire would devise a battle station... housing a superweapon... with a hyperdrive! And then when they decided that the Imperial- class Star Destroyer - already the largest military vessel in the known galaxy - wasn't large enough, they built the Executor -class Super Star Destroyer that was, IIRC, something like 17 times longer than an Imperial -class Star Destroyer. And if that wasn't enough, they went and make the most bonkers starfighters in the galaxy: the TIE Defender and the Missile Boat.

The only reason the Empire would cut spending on a starfighter is so they can spend even more on something else.

And that's different from a real world government how?

Let's cut those old, but still perfectly effective and useful fighter jets so we can save $50million annually while we simultaneously aquire another fighter jet that doesn't quite replace the one we cut and costs $1billion each!

Since this thread is in the Age of Rebellion subforum....

I would pack the V-Wings up and send them to the rebel fleet (or have them pick them up). They can probably be put to good use flying from Nebulons or for system defense forces, where their lack of an integrated hyperdrive is not an issue. Some of the ships might need to be instantly cannibalized to ensure a good supply of spares for the remainder. But they have engines and guns and that should be good enough for the rebels. If the rebels want to upgrade them, by all means.

I imagine a well-led squadron of V-Wings flying in direct support of a Nebulon (meaning close enough to take advantage of the Nebulon's anti-fighter weapons) would be murder on slower Imperial ships like TIE Bombers - and can probably put up a good fight against TIE Fighters. Compared to the swarms of droid fighters and bombers the V-Wing was designed to combat, the TIEs should make nice, fat targets.

Probably not the sort of craft you want to have flying unsupported against swarms of TIEs, though. But if nothing else, the V-Wings can be used as target drones and training craft.

So, V-Wing=Potent close defense craft, target drone, trainer. (Imagine Luke getting a training flight on a V-Wing before being cleared to fly an X-Wing against the Death Star... otherwise his first flight in an X-Wing would be his first flight in space!)

Let me ask this question: As a player, what would be (your) recommended course of action if the GM lets your group run across a cache of V-Wings? This also include the droids to help support the fighters (but no munitions).

This can include multiple responses if there are different characters in play, as well.

As a player... there's a lot to consider that isn't included in that question....

As a GM... If I had time I'd love to make 5ish adventure campaign putting the players in the role of TIE pilots. Needless to say if you want to make your campaign a V-wing campaign, I'll totally back you up. Just make sure the players know that too so they can spec accordingly. Likewise I'd also do what I'd do with my TIE campaign and ensure that in addition to the players getting ground crew they'd also get additional pilots so they can run Squadron rules and not get obliterated on sortie 1.

As for mods, I'd allow modifications using existing rules, but I don't think I'd go so far as making a rebuild version of the V-wing. Honestly, with a weapons upgrade and some other minor tweaks it'd be plenty competitive as is.

On a related note: have you ever heard of the Graveyard of Alderaan adventure module? That thing is crazy and would totally set up the situation you're talking about.

I haven't heard of that module. However, a quick dive into wookieepedia shows that's where Another Chance was rediscovered.

As for inspiration, it was a combination of Star Wars reading/history, the spots in the Stay on Target sourcebook, Star Wars Rebels, and my experience while being deployed to Iraq.

Seeing that Old Republic base with those creatures from Rebels made me realize that the Empire made the "cost-effective" decision to just leave the material behind. Even though it wasn't much, that material can still be useful, especially if the parts can be either acquired easily or rebuilt.

I would have thought that there would have numerous V-wings taken out of service as the TIE was introduced. It makes sense unless every V-wing was "flown 'til blown" and even the Empire couldn't maintain the needed numbers of pilots in that case.

Maybe with the shift toward large battleships and away from fights and bombers the empire decided sending the v-wings to the bone yard was more cost effective from a political position.

I mean it's not so far fetched "eliminating the astromech requirement and hyperdrive expenses in our fighters will show a savings of 345 billion credits over the next 10 years through reductions in maintenance costs alone!"

I would have thought that there would have numerous V-wings taken out of service as the TIE was introduced. It makes sense unless every V-wing was "flown 'til blown" and even the Empire couldn't maintain the needed numbers of pilots in that case.

Maybe with the shift toward large battleships and away from fights and bombers the empire decided sending the v-wings to the bone yard was more cost effective from a political position.

I mean it's not so far fetched "eliminating the astromech requirement and hyperdrive expenses in our fighters will show a savings of 345 billion credits over the next 10 years through reductions in maintenance costs alone!"

The only trouble with that theory is that the Empire isn't real big on cutting military spending or military savings.

The Empire wants extravagance. Every military decision the Empire makes is inherently extravagant. Only the Empire would devise a battle station... housing a superweapon... with a hyperdrive! And then when they decided that the Imperial- class Star Destroyer - already the largest military vessel in the known galaxy - wasn't large enough, they built the Executor -class Super Star Destroyer that was, IIRC, something like 17 times longer than an Imperial -class Star Destroyer. And if that wasn't enough, they went and make the most bonkers starfighters in the galaxy: the TIE Defender and the Missile Boat.

The only reason the Empire would cut spending on a starfighter is so they can spend even more on something else.

Mostly that's from the idea of doctrine as well as maintenance. Why pay 50,000+ credits on the V-wing, droid, training, and maintenance when three TIE Fighters can be bought. In addition, crosstraining from the Fighter to later versions of the TIE series was easier. And frankly, new TIE Pilots could be easily recruited and trained.

Add to it that it was reminiscent of Republic bureaucracy and corruption, and all of a sudden it makes sense for the V-Wing to be scrapped (especially as it helped downgrade the starfighter division of Kuat Systems Engineering).

For me, it gives another option, since there are already units flying the Z-95 and the Y-Wing. Heck, cells with some serious tech access might also modify the V-wing to take the role of a first strike fighter.

And that's different from a real world government how?

Let's cut those old, but still perfectly effective and useful fighter jets so we can save $50million annually while we simultaneously aquire another fighter jet that doesn't quite replace the one we cut and costs $1billion each!

Over $1 billion each and still won't be able to due it's blasted job for another 5 years. Heck, the weapon system still it's suppose to carry might not be ready for another 10 years!

I hate it when my science fiction is being tainted by my reality.