Another question would be, if the bonus hull points vanish upon his death, does damage suffered by ships during a match eat up the bonus hull points first or last.

Damage doesn't eat up hull. The hull remains constant during the match, aside from special effects like Motti.

A ship is destroyed, when the damage it suffered at least equals the hull points.

Thus, there is no first or last, it is just a comparison between two values: hull (which may sink ue to Motti's death) and damage (which may sink due to repairs and rise due to...damage dealt).

why does this keep coming up? It's a pretty basic concept used in MANY games...if a card goes away that created a static/ongoing effect the effect goes away too.

why does this keep coming up? It's a pretty basic concept used in MANY games...if a card goes away that created a static/ongoing effect the effect goes away too.

Because most other games track health points remaining, rather than damage points sustained. The possible ship destruction domino effect from a Motti effect doesn't happen in other games, so it feels really weird here. Even though the other thread on the issue convinced me that the rules do support the domino effect, it still feels weird to me and I'm hoping for next errata update changes it.

Just look at the squadrons in this game, which track health in the more traditional way. Imagine there was a commander card that granted 1 extra health to all squadrons, and told you to turn their hitpoint dial one notch past their normal max value to indicate the extra health. The squadrons go about their battles and get reduced to one health each. The commander dies. Do you now remove 1hp and blow up all the squadrons? I'm guessing you wouldn't. The extra health the squadrons were given was the first health to get damaged away, and that 1hp left is considered part of the squadrons' "original" health pool.

That's why the Motti domino effect feels so weird. He gives a ship 3 extra health, that ship takes 3 damage, but the ship is not really back to its original health like in other games. Motti is just sort of telling the player to hold their hand over those 3 damage cards and pretend they're not there.

He could definitely use errata to make it clear, but I'm pretty sure the intent is for it to be permanent.

You have no basis for that belief as nothing in the rules hints at such bonuses ever being permanent. All the rules say is that upgrade cards on out of play ships are inactive.

More over the damage rules allow for the possibility of this type of destruction.

You want the rules to work differently, you hope they will be errata'd to work differently, but you don't have any basis to assert designer intent on the subject.

So I get hit with the upgrade that turns my defensive tokens over. If I kill the ship with that upgrade do I turn my tokens back over? I can see both sides of the discussion, is this an effect that like a damage effect triggers, updates my hull with a new value then never works again or it a continuous effect that is only active when the character is around?

Narratively could he not have heavier ships, reinforced bulkheads and such? Just as much as he inspires his repair crews to work harder.

For me there isn't as much certainty and the question seems reasonable to ask.

if you get hit by a ship that has an effect to turn your defensive tokens over, they are turned over as part of the effect resolving. They dont reset until the end of the round. Even if you kill that enemy ship afterwards, your tokens wouldnt reset. They only reset at the end of the round. The rules are pretty clear on this.

With Motti has a continous effect, not one that only resolves when certain conditions are met---like attacking and rolling a *critical* to resolve an effect. Once Motti dies his continuous ability goes away, its the exact same for every other commander out there. Their abilities all stop working once they die, nobody is arguing over anybody else's ability.

I really like how several people explain the fluff behind Motti's ability. He has such a commanding pressence he can make crew work passed their percieved limits. Realistically, it is incredibly hard to completely destroy a warship. They can take a large amount of punishment. Occaisionally you get that lucky shot to the ammo storage and then the whole thing sinks. But otherwise you could still fight even if the ship is taking on water.

Also, just because a ship reaches its hull limit in damage doesnt mean that it "exploded". It could mean that the ships crew all decided to abandon ship, escape into hyperspace, that sort of thing.

So Motti increases the hit points of his ships because of his commanding pressence. If you dont continue to fight he is going to kill you. If his ships have taken their normal hull points of damage worth and then Motti dies, its the equivelent of the crews saying "well he aint around no more to threaten my life so screw this."

with Motti:

without Motti:

You don't keep minting tarkin bucks when he dies, so yes you lose the Motti hull points. Mottie builds will be tankier and more defensive in nature. While Screed increases damage output, Motti will increase survival of your fleet. Two unique play styles.

Losing your Fleet Commander is supposed to be devastating. Imagine if a Vette spam loses Mon Motha, or Dodanna, the survivability or Damage output is greatly reduced.

If there was no punishment for losing a Fleet Commander the game wouldn't feel right. I like how there is no Morale punishment like over games, but you lose a key ability instead, which feels just as devastating.

With Motti has a continous effect, not one that only resolves when certain conditions are met---like attacking and rolling a *critical* to resolve an effect. Once Motti dies his continuous ability goes away, its the exact same for every other commander out there. Their abilities all stop working once they die, nobody is arguing over anybody else's ability.

You hit the nail on the head there. There is no question about any other upgrade card, period.

As for the fluff - Motti may be the most awkward to explain into the game (Or maybe why Mon Mothma makes every ship more slippery?), but I think that all the commanders can fall under the same umbrella. The commander buff is more of a "presence" thing, force of will, their personality reflected in the battle, whatever you prefer.

The fleet can obviously fight on, but it's no longer as flexible without Tarkin... or as surgical without General Dodonna... or perhaps upon the loss of Motti, the crews no longer have as much belief in their technological terrors.

Because most other games track health points remaining, rather than damage points sustained.

That's true, most other tabletop games or RPG's subtract your HP's by the amount of damage taken. In X-Wing and Armada you don't ever reduce the amount of hull, just compare it to the amount of damage taken.

But that doesn't change how the rules actually work, just because they use a different method.

All upgrades cease to function once they are removed from play, so in this case the increased hull would also go away, that does in fact mean a ship could be destroyed because Motti is removed.

As far as intent, no one can really say what the intent is, until they release a FAQ with a ruling it it. The only people to take a RAI argument seriously is the one making it, because no one can ever really know what the intent is, other then the people who made the rule.

That said, there is something simular in X-Wing that can provide a precedence. The IG-2000 title which lets all IG-2000's use the pilot ability of all other IG-2000's in play. If a IG-2000 is removed from play, then all other IG-2000's lose access to that ability.

So you have something that works roughly the same way. Both provide a upgrade to other ships in play, but only for as long as that ship is around.

Of course that's X-Wing and not Armada, and FFG can and will rule however they want. But between that ruling in X-Wing and RAW (but mostly RAW), I don't see how anyone can interpret Motti as anything other than a upgrade that goes away when he does.

As a TO I would rule that Motti has an instant and persistent effect even after his ship is destroyed.

I'd be fine with that as long as the same there for other leaders on the rebels side ... mon motha etc...

What I'm saying is if their other effects go ... so does Motti's.

He could definitely use errata to make it clear, but I'm pretty sure the intent is for it to be permanent.

You have no basis for that belief as nothing in the rules hints at such bonuses ever being permanent. All the rules say is that upgrade cards on out of play ships are inactive.

More over the damage rules allow for the possibility of this type of destruction.

You want the rules to work differently, you hope they will be errata'd to work differently, but you don't have any basis to assert designer intent on the subject.

This shouln't be a topic. The defeat of imperial warships in combat is inconceivable.

I'm actually a rebel player, so I would prefer it to go away. The reason I think it persists is because what would be the point if it goes away? It could be a completely useless ability if it goes away. If his ship dies first the imperial player would pitentially get no use from it. Can you say that about any other commander?

.... Uh, yeah? I can say that about every other Commander. That is exactly how Commander cards work. If Mon Mothma gets 1-shot 2nd turn, no other ships are going to get the Evade modification. She could conceivably die before any other ship gets to use an Evade. If Screed gets KO'd, no ship gets the spend dice for crit effect, again this could happen before he ever gets to use his ability. If Tarkin gets blown up, no more tokens beyond the first round. Etc, etc, etc.

as has been repeatedly pointed out, every other commander's ability goes away when they die. The difference is that their ability is a triggered event that occurs once (when enemy ship is dealt a crit, when a dodge is used, during the beginning of round 1 7 5, during the beginning of every round, during an attack...)

I've had Garm die on round 4 before. That **** is heartwrenching

Motti's is constant, until he bites the dust

it is hardly useless, in fact it's going to be kind of silly esp when imperials arrive. a 10 hull victory is almost ludicrous enough as is, and forcing the decision between shooting at Motti to remove his ability or at...say the Dominator is quite a powerful ability to have.

There isn't a single other commander in the game right now, that can be used as example of why Motti should stay in effect after he's dead.

In fact of all of them, he's the most likely to not have an effect on the game, due to the nature of his ability.

Because most other games track health points remaining, rather than damage points sustained.

That's true, most other tabletop games or RPG's subtract your HP's by the amount of damage taken. In X-Wing and Armada you don't ever reduce the amount of hull, just compare it to the amount of damage taken.

But that doesn't change how the rules actually work, just because they use a different method.

The damage card method does change the way buffs like this work.

Think of almost any other game that has a hitpoint system of some kind as well as some way to buff a unit's hitpoints. RPGs, Hearthstone, first person shooters, you name it.

I have 10hp. I get a buff that grants me 5 extra hp. I now have 15. I then take 14 damage and have 1hp left. Next, the buff gets removed.

In just about every other kind of game, the removal of the buff means I stay at 1hp. I don't lose 5hp, go into the negative and die.

So again, I did get convinced in the other thread that a Motti death can indeed cause other ships to spontaneously combust, but it still feels weird compared to how hitpoints work in other games. People seem to be baffled at why this rules situation keeps getting brought up, but this is the reason. It does play out very different than how a Motti death situation would play out in other games.

to counter the above example, magic the gathering would like a word with you

and again, ships don't have to spontaneously combust. These are big capital ships we're dealing with, they're not going to go *poof* like the...deathstar apparently. Anyway, it can take a long time for these behemoths to start coming apart, Motti could just be "inspiring" crews to remain at their stations long after it's safe to do so. We get no idea of how many men and women are dying aboard as the ship shambles on in a state of near death, their last thoughts filled with "well, at least it's better than what Motti'd do to me." Motti's kind of an *******.

It also makes sense as to why Motti's ability scales with size. The bigger ships are going to take a lot longer before they finally, actually die, while something relatively tiny can get torn asunder far more easily. Not to mention there's not as many expendable crewmen...

Once he's gone though, abandon ship!!!!!

The damage card method does change the way buffs like this work.

No it doesn't, it may be a reason to change how a buff like this works. But that doesn't inherently change how the rules work. It just makes it work differently than we might expect them to work.

Yes normally when you subtract damage from HP, a buff that increases your HP means the first HP to be lost is the ones from the buff. But that doesn't mean it has to work that way. In some editions of D&D for example there were buffs that when they ran out could mean your character died.

People seem to be baffled at why this rules situation keeps getting brought up, but this is the reason.

I agree that's why, because it's somewhat counterintuitive to how we expect things to work. You see the same thing in X-Wing from time to time, where people think you lose Hull points, so things like Flechette torpedoes should work on a ship that's lost a few hull.

For you folks here who think Motti's effect is a permanent one time buff that happens at the start of the game, here's the argument from another thread that convinced me it's the other way.

Motti says: "The hull value of each friendly ship is increased according to its size class"

I totally get how that can read like Motti increases hull values everywhere, the deed is done, the buff is permanent, Motti isn't needed anymore.

But Expanded Launchers says:

"The battery armament for your front hull zone is increased by 2 black dice"

This card uses the word 'increased', same as Motti. If your opponent somehow makes you discard your Expanded Launchers, you wouldn't expect to continue having 2 extra black dice for the rest of the game, would you? So if an increase to your armament isn't a permanent effect, it follows that an increase to your hull value wouldn't be permanent either.

I'm actually a rebel player, so I would prefer it to go away. The reason I think it persists is because what would be the point if it goes away? It could be a completely useless ability if it goes away. If his ship dies first the imperial player would pitentially get no use from it. Can you say that about any other commander?

.... Uh, yeah? I can say that about every other Commander. That is exactly how Commander cards work. If Mon Mothma gets 1-shot 2nd turn, no other ships are going to get the Evade modification. She could conceivably die before any other ship gets to use an Evade. If Screed gets KO'd, no ship gets the spend dice for crit effect, again this could happen before he ever gets to use his ability. If Tarkin gets blown up, no more tokens beyond the first round. Etc, etc, etc.

For you folks here who think Motti's effect is a permanent one time buff that happens at the start of the game, here's the argument from another thread that convinced me it's the other way.

Motti says: "The hull value of each friendly ship is increased according to its size class"

I totally get how that can read like Motti increases hull values everywhere, the deed is done, the buff is permanent, Motti isn't needed anymore.

But Expanded Launchers says:

"The battery armament for your front hull zone is increased by 2 black dice"

This card uses the word 'increased', same as Motti. If your opponent somehow makes you discard your Expanded Launchers, you wouldn't expect to continue having 2 extra black dice for the rest of the game, would you? So if an increase to your armament isn't a permanent effect, it follows that an increase to your hull value wouldn't be permanent either.

Not wrong, but kind of a flawed analogy as there ISN'T a way to discard a modification. Personally, I see legitimate well founded arguments on both sides of this and would like to see a ruling from FFG

I'm actually a rebel player, so I would prefer it to go away. The reason I think it persists is because what would be the point if it goes away? It could be a completely useless ability if it goes away. If his ship dies first the imperial player would pitentially get no use from it. Can you say that about any other commander?

.... Uh, yeah? I can say that about every other Commander. That is exactly how Commander cards work. If Mon Mothma gets 1-shot 2nd turn, no other ships are going to get the Evade modification. She could conceivably die before any other ship gets to use an Evade. If Screed gets KO'd, no ship gets the spend dice for crit effect, again this could happen before he ever gets to use his ability. If Tarkin gets blown up, no more tokens beyond the first round. Etc, etc, etc.

He could die turn 6 and his ability still becomes useless. The other commanders have abilities that you use. The entire usefulness of his ability would rely on him surviving.

I'm confused, mostly because you don't seem to be making the point you think you're making. You are aware that all of the other Commander's abilities are also lost when they die as well, correct?

For you folks here who think Motti's effect is a permanent one time buff that happens at the start of the game, here's the argument from another thread that convinced me it's the other way.

Motti says: "The hull value of each friendly ship is increased according to its size class"

I totally get how that can read like Motti increases hull values everywhere, the deed is done, the buff is permanent, Motti isn't needed anymore.

But Expanded Launchers says:

"The battery armament for your front hull zone is increased by 2 black dice"

This card uses the word 'increased', same as Motti. If your opponent somehow makes you discard your Expanded Launchers, you wouldn't expect to continue having 2 extra black dice for the rest of the game, would you? So if an increase to your armament isn't a permanent effect, it follows that an increase to your hull value wouldn't be permanent either.

Thats it! +1

I'm actually a rebel player, so I would prefer it to go away. The reason I think it persists is because what would be the point if it goes away? It could be a completely useless ability if it goes away. If his ship dies first the imperial player would pitentially get no use from it. Can you say that about any other commander?

.... Uh, yeah? I can say that about every other Commander. That is exactly how Commander cards work. If Mon Mothma gets 1-shot 2nd turn, no other ships are going to get the Evade modification. She could conceivably die before any other ship gets to use an Evade. If Screed gets KO'd, no ship gets the spend dice for crit effect, again this could happen before he ever gets to use his ability. If Tarkin gets blown up, no more tokens beyond the first round. Etc, etc, etc.

He could die turn 6 and his ability still becomes useless. The other commanders have abilities that you use. The entire usefulness of his ability would rely on him surviving

I'm confused, mostly because you don't seem to be making the point you think you're making. You are aware that all of the other Commander's abilities are also lost when they die as well, correct?

He increases hit points! Even the hit points of his own ship.

What worth would it be if at the end of the game all your ships have taken their normal hull points minus 1 of damage cards. They would still be alive even without Motti. Its all part of the game.