With the talent Two-weapon weilder (balistic) and recoil gloves, its it possible to wield a 2h lasgun 1handed and 1 lasgun in both hands.

You can, but the abilities which let you fire two guns in one round each apply only to pistols.

Only with regards to semi and full auto fire. You could fire two flamers, for example, or two shotguns or other basic weapons on single-fire.

But: It's cheesy. We've had this discussion before, several times. Do a little search, and all shall be revealed

Oh, hey. How about that. Mm, Shotguns just got more delicious. And Flamers.

-10 to each shot (I guess that would be +10 to the agility test against the flamer), but worth it.

I just rechecked the rules and the errata but I couldn't find anything indicating that you cannot fire two basic weapons on autofire. Recoil gloves or pistol grips both seems to let you fire them without penalty.

Errata doesen't seem to say anything about forbidding FA with basic weapons, core rules allow FA when wielding two weapons. And yeah it's definetly cheesy, but afaik allowed by RAW.

The actual rules for full and semi-auto fire specificy that you may fire two weapons on autofire at once if both are pistols. The passage under two-weapon wielding is a little confusing because of this, since it simply mentions the possibility of firing two guns on autofire. This has to be read in light of the basic rule that only allows pistols to be used in such a manner, since an explicit exception would be needed to override this rule and the later mention under two-weapon fighting does not actually provide one.

(The text under two-weapon fighting seems to assume you've been just that moment been reffered there by the text under full-or-semi-auto burst which specifies that you must use pistols and then directs you to two-weapon fighting for more details.)

Hodgepodge said:

The wording is fairly inconsistent, and both the errata and the main book uses "pistols" as the intended weapon for two-weapon fighting. However it also says "When firing a ranged weapon with each hand, you may fire each weapon on a different mode(...)" emphasis mine. Note it doesen't specify pistols here, and if it was a hard fast rule they could have made it a point(or "dot") in this text. Besides I'm not sure if the rules should always be interpreted antithetical, so rules saying "you may fire pistols" might not mean "you may not fire anything but pistols"

The errata on the other hand specify if pistols can be used or not, noting that Gunslinger talent only reduces penalty for pistols, just as in the talent description. It fails to clarify wether basic weapons can be fired at full auto from both hands. Only in the description of full auto and semi auto fire are the words "pistol" used, but they say only that pistols can be fired in either hand, without specifying mode. So I think it can be interpeted both ways.

Realistically, there is nothing physically in the way if firing to automatic rifles like that (except lack of accuracy), but who cares.

I think it's just clumsy wording, and/or leaving the wording open for future possibilities. You have the option to when wielding ranged weapons in both hands to autofire on two seperate modes, true. But the rules for using autofire narrow the range of possible ranged weapons that can be used with either form of autofire to pistols.

Likewise, if the rules read "when using a ranged weapon in melee, you may...etc" then it would be rather clear that the only ranged weapon that can be used in this way would currently be a pistol.

But if there were, for example, a specific basic weapon that had the special rule "can be used in melee," or "can be fired in either hand on autofire when firing another weapon which is a pistol or has this ability in the other on autofire," then those rules would also apply to it.

Friend of the Dork said:

Right, so you could fire the autopistol on Full Auto with one hand, while simultaneously make a single shot with the shotgun in your other. This would be legal under the RAW.

Darth Smeg said:

Yes, but arguably you could also fire both on autofire (if such shotgun had that capability). Or, as per the example in the rules itself, one on full auto and one on semi-auto. Note that this is in the same sentence that says "ranged weapon."

Hodgepodge, I didn't get your example.. the rules are very clear that you cannot use a ranged weapon in melee, UNLESS it is classed as a pistol. This allows for pistols and basic weapons classed as pistols (crossbow pistol for one), and clearly forbids everything else from flamers to heavy bolters.

Now if the rules had said "Only pistols may be used to fire 2 weapons in full-auto or semi-auto mode simultaneously" or some such I would concede the point.

Then again there is RAI.. why would you want to allow someone to fire 2 hunting rifles at once (single shots) but not two autoguns at once in full auto?) Is it matter of balance? Then why not ban all non-pistols to be used when dual-wielding (ranged) weapons?

Well, let's try again:

The rules for two weapon fighting state that if you have a weapon in each hand, you may fire each on a different autofire mode.

So, we look at the rules for autofire modes to find out what weapons may be fired in this way:

Under what circumstances may you fire a second weapon while one is being fired on Full Auto? According to the rules for Full Auto, "if you have a pistol in either hand, you may fire them both."

Under what circumstances may you fire a second weapon while one is on Semi-Auto? According to the rules for Full Auto, "if you have a pistol in either hand, you may fire them both."

So, while the rules for two-weapon fighting state that, when holding a weapon in each hand, you may fire each on a different mode, the rules for all the available modes of fire (semi-auto and full auto) narrow the circumstances under which a weapon may be fired while another is being fired in either mode down to one: when you are holding a pistol in both your hands.

So, you cannot apply the rule outlined in two-weapon fighting to basic weapons, because while firing a basic weapon on either mode, you do not have the ability to fire another weapon at all. The rules for all the currently available modes of fire have precluded the possibility of doing so by outlining a requirement for firing another weapon while using that mode of fire, and you do not meet that requirement unless you are holding a pistol in each hand.

IF you wanted the penalties for things again yes you could ( and i would institute the full penalty for semi-fully auto fire and offhanded to BOTH as if you didnt have the skill if you wanted to so your fire would count as wildfire/suppression fire. UNLESS you had 2 weapon wielder / Ambidexterity / AND Bulging biceps ( and a big damned PC ( none of the scrawny dudes ).

Im currently considering something like that for a NPC im running in one of my games. He is a techpriest Myrmidon so he has the Machinator array talent that increases his size and bulk ( gains 3x mass and due to that and the description given of myrmidons being towering figures that that talent has also increased his size by 1 category as well ( in effect making him the size of a space marine but with more bulk weighing in at approx 300kg base). He is using a specially crafted ( by him since he is a armor/weapons specialist as the myrmidons are portrayed ) power armor setup ( which increases his size 1 more step again ) because it is full PA not the light suits. These make his raw size and strength able to take 2 ( normally 2 handed assault rifles ) and wield them 1 handed dual without penalty ( he has the 3 afore mentioned prerequisites i use ) Effectively turning him into a nightmare of a battle tech priest .

If you were to take the 3 talents and had the largest category of size ( or a strength bonus of 5+ then i can see dual wielding assault or basic weapons easily enough.

If I may impose this question: What MUNCHKIN of a character has enough strength to not only CARRY two great weapons, but WIELD EACH ONE HANDED?

Our teams Meat Mountain of a Guard had ONE, and had 50 strength, and could STILL only wield one due to how bulky and hard to use it was. I mean, you don't even see that happening in ANIME and that alone is known for crazy stuff that probably shouldn't happen ever.

Kylen said:

I realize that there's a lot of decay on this thread and after months of being dead and burried, it can be hard to really pick out features from the festering rot that has set in, but if you read the OP you'll see that the two-handed weapons in question are Basic Ranged weapons wich can be duel weilded with recoil gloves ;-)

Weight is still a matter to consider. A loaded autogun weighs in at some 3,5 to 5 Kgs, depending on make and model. If you add an Ammo-selector and an extra 2 clips (and come on, which recoil-glove-wearing, dual-wielding munchkin isn't) you can add another kilo or 2.

While this is not exceptionally heavy compared to other things one might lift around, the weight distribution of these things is awkward. The rifles are usually around 1m in length, and you grab onto them fairly close to one end. Holding these long metal things out in front of you, and trying to keep them pointing in the same direction in a somewhat steady manner is heavy work, even if you no longer have to worry about the recoil. You'd need very strong wrists to pull this off.

You'd need to add "pistol grips" and rework the trigger mechanisms to get a more balanced grip, but now we're almost talking complete rework and tech-heresy here

well get a terminator armor and mount it on the arms then it's perfectly fine...

else then that? you can't wield a heavy weapon one handed... but you don't heavy to...

psyker -> shape flesh (4 arms equals 2 heavy weapons, 6 arms equal 3 heavy weapons)

tech-priest -> manipulator array to hold the dam weapon and one hand to aim/pull the trigger so with 2 manipulators you're good to go

(I never did it but many people seem to allow using 2h weapons with 1 hand and a manipulator array)

everyone else needs mutation for extra arms

and for carrying purposes... just a character with 40/40 toughness/strength (or use point buy or add starting packages or homeworld) buy up to 60/60 and youre good to carry 112 kg which is enough for 2 heavy bolters or even 2 auto cannos... 2 assault cannons still aren't in there without exceeding carrying limits except for being a tech-priest with machinator array (+10/+10) or helot mining device for everyone (+10/10) then you are at a carrying capacity of 3337kg / 675kg because after a combined bonus of 12 the carrying limits rise insanely

at ascencion level where oyu can buy another +10/10 and get unnatural tough and strength as a techpriest you are at a combined bonus of 32... fit for carrying a rhino I think (or lifting a small tank maybe?... pushing a house?)

if it isn't enough go radical add a mutation or two and add homeworld/starting package if you really want a character which can carry loads of **** you can do it...

Simple....bulging biceps to account for the weight issues and stabilization / recoil gloves to deal with kickback and a S bonus of 4+ at minimum ( 5+ is best unless you wound up with the mutation for unnatural strength bonusAlso BQ weapons an be custom ordered/made but for a price...much the same as custom armor. If you have a PC that for whatever reason is bigger than avg ( mutation or mechanicus influence ) then that makes the size issues of the weapons not as big an issue at all. There are tables ive found that allow you to custom order your weapons at good and best quality that give you options of picking the trait(s) that it will have in addition to any particular drawbacks to offset things...as well as the higher than usual price of the weapon.

Custom AND BQ...easily turn a 50 throne pistol into a 500+ throne weapon. As far as the bigger / biggest guns go...just make them compact...i dont go with the restriction of only the smaller ones that way...ANY weapon can be made smaller if your willing to pay the fee for the work and reduced range/hitting power AND weight ( something that was left out of the actual description BUT less material and smaller size = less weight as well ). Use GM priveledge and tinker with the rules a bit .....The cost multipliers alone will limit how many and how often the PCs can aquire the special custom items....not to mention they still have to FIND someone with the necessary skills for it ( i require a trade armorer with +20 bonus AND related stat bonus of at least 4 in order to perform the work ) In addition to having to have the necessary equipment TO do so to begin with...so getting a custom item can be a adventure in its own right

If you upgrade your basic weapon to Pistol Grips, the weight is only a third of the weapon, bringing it to the level of regular handguns in many cases. Then add Recoil Gloves to emulate wielding them with two hands, so you avoid the range penalty.

revak said:

omg you are right how is this possible? I thought it was +1/3 the whole time how can a weapon possible have less weight with extra stuff added to it (normal grip remains on the weapon as for the errata)

Looks like a misstake. Not sure if it is fixed in the errata, but compare it to compact. It has all the benefits (and more) with less detriments. Yet it costs less? No, I have a hard time believing its not a missprint.

Honn said:

thing is first time I read it I was like compact *1/2 WOOT? I add half the weight to it for it being compact???

I think x1/2 or x1/3 is not very self explaining if used for diferent meanings with the same syntax

but of course I'm still playing it like + 1/3

Well no, using x1/2 and x1/3 for completely different things is not very smart of them, hence why I think its a mistake and a missprint.