ramming --> cheap dirty tricks --> Warmachine!?

look, I came from Warmachine. The cheap, dirty tricks there come from exploitation of the minutia of complex model interactions across a lot of models, and from tons upon tons of special abilities and interactions that takes many dozens of games to get used to.

Ramming is an incredibly basic and straightforward rule found in the teeny tiny (relative to WM) main rule book.

I can understand being salty (my name...), but the comparison here is off base and you will be better off adapting to the tactic. Trust me, it is an incredibly rare scenario and almost suicidal if your opponent is even the least bit prepared for it.

Next we'll be having someone claim that black dice are a flaw in the rules, a dirty trick, and that they don't like being shot to bits when they fly too close to a Gladiator...

Next we'll be having someone claim that black dice are a flaw in the rules, a dirty trick, and that they don't like being shot to bits when they fly too close to a Gladiator...

it's like ramming, but ranged !

(and so many many times more devastating)

FFG just can't win. They come out with x-wing and one of the most common complaints with it is that ships can block, you can put yourself in a position to be overlapped (rammed) and it is commonly a good thing. Entire strategies in the game revolve around there being no penalty when your ship is hit by another. Now in armada they fixed it - "people complain because you can block your own ships and effectively move zero, let's have overlaps in armada cause damage so people won't do that" -and now people are complaining about ramming

It is an unavoidable consequence of these style of movement systems that there are GOING to be overlaps. There is simply no way around it, it WILL happen. Therefore the rules have to address the situation. If the rules don't cause significant penalties when overlapping occurs, then players will do it deliberately to manipulate their own movement (by fortressing up like in x-wing and still using defense tokens), if overlapping does cause a significant penalty, players will do it deliberately to their opponent to block and inflict that penalty on them.

There is literally nothing that can be done about this, the game will enable one of these tactics or the other. Deal with it.

FFG just can't win. They come out with x-wing and one of the most common complaints with it is that ships can block, you can put yourself in a position to be overlapped (rammed) and it is commonly a good thing. Entire strategies in the game revolve around there being no penalty when your ship is hit by another. Now in armada they fixed it - "people complain because you can block your own ships and effectively move zero, let's have overlaps in armada cause damage so people won't do that" -and now people are complaining about ramming

It is an unavoidable consequence of these style of movement systems that there are GOING to be overlaps. There is simply no way around it, it WILL happen. Therefore the rules have to address the situation. If the rules don't cause significant penalties when overlapping occurs, then players will do it deliberately to manipulate their own movement (by fortressing up like in x-wing and still using defense tokens), if overlapping does cause a significant penalty, players will do it deliberately to their opponent to block and inflict that penalty on them.

There is literally nothing that can be done about this, the game will enable one of these tactics or the other. Deal with it.

And eventually tactics will be developed that (more or less) deal with the situation. Then, a new tactic will come along, and the process will repeat. It's the circle of...err...life.

I think it's best to move away from the thread, as the points showing ways to get out of or not engage in ramming, or its adverse affects aren't really being argued anymore and the poster of the thread has stated they basically don't care for what anyone is really saying. Best to move on to other topics or start a new one talking overall about the pro's and con's, or overall using ramming as a tactic.

we should start encouraging Gladiator commanders to ram more

it's like the zen teachings of the imperial academy:

"Do not simply fire the missile, be the missile."

If your point of posting here was to try to get agreement for your viewpoint, you aren't likely to find much. As you have seen, it quite to the contrary.

This isn't a flaw, the rules have an entire section devoted to ramming, including multiple methods of resolving the movement. It's clear that ramming was part of their intent with the game. If they didn't intend people to cause damage when they ram, they would have simplified their job in writing the rulebook by not writing extra paragraphs.

Claiming injury based on "the good money" you paid, is disingenious. Almost everyone here paid "good money" to get the game as written. I mean, FFG went ahead and released the rules before you could even buy the products.

You can absolutely state that you feel like ramming, a legitimate tactic, is a tad too powerful. Similar to some people saying Demolisher is a tad too powerful. But painting people that use it with a broad brush of using "cheap dirty tricks" tends to raise hackles. Thus, the pushback you're seeing in this thread.

Your posts smack too much of "I am so amazing that if I lost, my opponent must have used illegitimate means to win." or "the only way I have fun is when I stomp an opponent. If I lose, no fun may be had". Maybe both, they do tend to go hand in hand. Your comments about warmachine and "cheaty tricks" tends to agree. You get stomped repeatedly in that game as you are learning. I would say that if you can't have fun when losing, that's definitely not the game to play. But really, there isn't a competitive game you should play.

To be honest, if are this emotional about losing, we would prefer you didn't play. FFG games have tended to have a fantastic group of players that are laid back, and have fun just playing the game, win or lose. Assimilate into this type of mindset, or take this type of attitude back to whatever toxic playerbase you came from.

I have yet to see anyone use the "ramming as tactic" play in our FLGS, but no one's played a tournament yet. So who knows? Frankly, I don't see every Rebel player doing this ALL the time. The sky is still up there....

Look at it from a different point of view here.

When the bigger ships get released, they will have what 10-13 hp or so. So a group of 5 rebel ships which would be understandable at 400 pts, could kill it through ramming in 2-3 turns with the loss of a ship in return. Take out shooting because that is a random factor.

So maybe Forgottenlore is on to a good idea where smaller ships take a face up card and if you are two bases smaller than the ship that hit you or you hit takes a face down and face up card to show the difference in ship sizes. Thus making my point about ramming larger ships much more risky.

"The circumstances of how I was rammed are of no concern to this thread. I was rammed and my ship died"

boo hoo?

if people can't discuss your situation...you know the one YOU MADE A THREAD ABOUT...then you should just get rid of this whole thread.

When we take out shooting, we take out the only way the big ship can possibly win. Of course, than is ramming dirty tricks. But when we account for shooting, than a moderate volley of an ISD on point blank will reduce a CR90 to rubble. Considdering the fact, that the ISD will not be alone on the field, those 'Vettes won't be mint anymore - I don't see a problem. If the tournaments are dominated by Ram'vettes, when wave 2 arrives (or even now, what I don't see), FFG will address this problem. But I don't believe this will happen.

Look at it from a different point of view here.

When the bigger ships get released, they will have what 10-13 hp or so. So a group of 5 rebel ships which would be understandable at 400 pts, could kill it through ramming in 2-3 turns with the loss of a ship in return. Take out shooting because that is a random factor.

So maybe Forgottenlore is on to a good idea where smaller ships take a face up card and if you are two bases smaller than the ship that hit you or you hit takes a face down and face up card to show the difference in ship sizes. Thus making my point about ramming larger ships much more risky.

how the hell are rebs expected to enact some kind of interspace NC-17 scene? Are the imperials just going to trundle the ISD out, have it wave a laced hankercheif and coo out a yoou-whoooooo?

If so, Akbar's seen this **** before

And if the rebs get a legitimate 5 ship ram, then what the hell is the rest of the fleet doing? Picking space daisies again!?

Escort your star destroyers you lazy tossers !

I swear, we oughta execute the lot of them for their incompetence

oh well, good thing the ISD is speed 3 and easily able to run out of ram range while the rebs have to circle around. I'm sure it'd rather die of shame than admit it had to run away from corvettes and nebs because its buddies were out frolicking in the asteroids, but hey at least it's safe.

"You have failed me for the last time, Admiral Piett."

If you get rammed to death with an ISD capable of chucking 7 dice at close range and posessing the same manueverability as a Space Whale you deserved to lose.

Even with your Victory, if they outmanuevered you that badly you deserved to lose. Because ramming is counterable, avoidable, and high risk.

While playing in my first tourney yesterday, I came across a major design flaw in the rules.

Apparently, the rebel ships can have more capital ships than the empire. Thus my opponent then rammed my Victory 2 until it died. The speed was reduced to one to ensure that I could not get by the rebel ships. So in short he used them to keep me from moving then ignored the shields by just ramming me 2-4 times a turn until it died.

Does anyone else see this as very much a flaw in the system?

Should we not ask for an FAQ that prevents damage when rammed but has some other effect?

Has anyone else encountered this issue in game play?

Run a victory 1 with Dominator and enhanced armament. Your problems will be over. You would have to be pretty dumb to ram V1Domiator wit kit.

I think that smaller ships that run into larger ships should take one damage, plus one for size differential.

I think that smaller ships that run into larger ships should take one damage, plus one for size differential.

Agreed.

I think that smaller ships that run into larger ships should take one damage, plus one for size differential.

In order for a player to ram you to death they have to telegraph their plan.

They need the following.

A list full of CR-90's. While good this has a number of weaknesses.

They need to slow to speed 1 to sustain the impact. They need to line up their ships perfectly so they aren't ramming themselves. In doing so they need to stock up on Navigation tokens, telegraphing their plan even more than the build does.

They have to sacrifice a ton of their own hull points to damage you.

And they're gambit basically involves sacrificing themselves on the approach to kill one of your ships. Leaving them crippled and unable to handle whatever else your list holds.

In summary. Stupid tactic that doesn't in any way break the game.

Next we'll be having someone claim that black dice are a flaw in the rules, a dirty trick, and that they don't like being shot to bits when they fly too close to a Gladiator...

Black dice are OP. They need to be nerfed down to gray...

I never said the game was broken. I said there is a game flaw that I found to be an issue.

Ramming should not be allowed because I pay good money to play a game based on upgrades and movement and not cheap dirty tricks. If you like to use cheap dirty tricks that you and your opponent are in agreement to then go play Warmachine.

Maybe one day I can go to an event where everyone is not trying to find loopholes in the rules to win a game and plays it as it was intended to be played.

Thus by ramming your ships into mine takes away from my experience in the game and fun in playing it. This is only wave one and people are already pushing the limits of what can or should be done.

The circumstances of how I was rammed are of no concern to this thread. I was rammed and my ship died and took damage by an unintended rule was found. I have simply asked if others have had this issue and feel that it takes away from the game or their fun (like it did mine).

This can't be a real post. This has got to be you trolling us.

Take your Victory, lay it out on your table. Now, OP didn't indicate how many corvettes he faced, but since he said between 2 and 4, we can assume 4 corvettes. If you have 4 corvettes place them around the hull of your Victory. Now, wonder how the hell 4 corvettes got that close to your victory and are still alive. Then, wonder how the hell he flew them so perfectly that regardless of which way you were turning all 4 of them could hit you every turn. Then remember that he would have had to avoid his own ships, while fitting 4 of his into a very tiny space around your ship, while your ship is moving, and hammering them. And if at the end of all that you still believe that this actually happened to OP, then congratulations ...we found the worst Armada player in the world.

We found the worst Armada player in the world.

Nah keep looking, you'll never find me.

When facing a tactical challenge you can overcome this in two ways, learn and improve or change the rules.

As a fencer I was always taught to overcome the tactical challenge and as a consequence I will never say that a problem can't be solved.

we should start encouraging Gladiator commanders to ram more

it's like the zen teachings of the imperial academy:

"Do not simply fire the missile, be the missile."

Looking back and analyzing my most recent battle, I'm actually lamenting the choice not to ram a Nebulon frigate when I knew my Gladiator was on the ropes. Honestly it didn't cross my mind at the time, but it should have. At least it would have got one final act of spite before exploding. What's more, the range was close enough to the Nebs that I should have turned into them and fired one full frontal volley on them before ramming them. My position made it feasible, but I tried to get it to run for it. A poor choice in hindsight. It's within the realm of possibility that I could have taken one out since I was on their flank where Nebs are the weakest. And my range was just outside of black dice range do to clever flying by my opponent. it wouldn't have taken much to get a solid final volley before they finished it off. Hindsight is that of an eagle.

(well that and I'm lamenting that I forgot I could burn defense tokens...(head desk). Still won the battle though )

"You have failed me for the last time, Admiral Piett."

No Joch, that was Admiral Nozzel.

we should start encouraging Gladiator commanders to ram more

it's like the zen teachings of the imperial academy:

"Do not simply fire the missile, be the missile."

Played a game against a Gladiator last night. Had it on the ropes, one hit left. My opponent engineered back up to two hits left, unleashed hell on my Assault Frigate with all those black dice taking it down to a single remaining hit, then rammed it. Because of the engineering the Gladiator survived and my Space Whale exploded in a cloud of blubber.

It was pretty awesome, to be honest. Because ramming is cool.