You also pay for that with over half your list...

I think the current meta is extremely boring to watch and it'll do more harm letting things stay stagnant than it will doing something to change things up.

It's also bad for business if new players come in see people only using two ships and copy them it drives down sales if people really think there's no other option.

See, I find watching Swarm is boring. Generic Tie Fighters isn't really exciting either.

What I actually like, both in playing and in watching, is seeing more named pilots get used. I actually try hard not to use too many generics when I play. I find the experience to be more fun, and I generally feel more like I'm 'in the Star Wars Universe'. I find that with generics only on the table that it sometimes feels like any other game, not like a Star Wars game.

One thing can be said of the current Meta - it's got a high ratio of named pilots. I like that. I hope others do too.

Jacob

You also pay for that with over half your list...

Yeah, but you can do more with it than spending your points on anything else.

Spending more points on something doesn't really justify itself if that sum of points is better than spending those points on more of lesser ships.

See, I find watching Swarm is boring. Generic Tie Fighters isn't really exciting either.

What I actually like, both in playing and in watching, is seeing more named pilots get used. I actually try hard not to use too many generics when I play. I find the experience to be more fun, and I generally feel more like I'm 'in the Star Wars Universe'. I find that with generics only on the table that it sometimes feels like any other game, not like a Star Wars game.

I agree that watching "swarms" flying in formation is boring. A bunch of Tie Fighters actually swarming the enemy is a lot of fun, though. I like the arc dodging, bumping, and slipping behind the enemy that happens with Tie Fighters and find it really fun. Flying in formation through different maneuvers is boring to me.

One thing can be said of the current Meta - it's got a high ratio of named pilots. I like that. I hope others do too.

Not me. Generics all the way. But I was the same way with 40k or any other game with special named characters. It felt odd to see the Galaxy's greatest warriors showing up at every backwater skirmish.

See, I find watching Swarm is boring. Generic Tie Fighters isn't really exciting either.

What I actually like, both in playing and in watching, is seeing more named pilots get used. I actually try hard not to use too many generics when I play. I find the experience to be more fun, and I generally feel more like I'm 'in the Star Wars Universe'. I find that with generics only on the table that it sometimes feels like any other game, not like a Star Wars game.

I agree that watching "swarms" flying in formation is boring. A bunch of Tie Fighters actually swarming the enemy is a lot of fun, though. I like the arc dodging, bumping, and slipping behind the enemy that happens with Tie Fighters and find it really fun. Flying in formation through different maneuvers is boring to me.

From the beginning of my play in the game my preference has been fewer, more maneuverable ships. I love Interceptors, the IGs, and the YT2400. These are a few of my favourite things. In addition to having that nostalgic, Star Warsy feel, I like the play style.

It's funny that people are down on the Big Turrets right now, calling them 'easy mode'. I find playing a YT2400 a big challenge, and I find playing any MF that's not Han to be more fun but also more difficult than people give it credit to be. My Chewbo list has been one of the most fun, exciting and difficult I've ever played, even though many would call it 'easy mode'...

Jacob

Turret vs non-turret games are the most exciting games for me because it discourages a joust. The turret player has to ensure they are capitalizing on that ability, staying out of the way and make sure they can get value out of all the points they paid for it. The non-turret player has to work on corralling that ship with bumps or chasing it into obstacles and corners and make sure it pays dearly for how inefficient it is. It is a game about jockeying for position.

I think watching two swarms slam into each other and see who comes out the other side is really boring. If your swarm gets blocked and your opponent's doesn't, you will lose the dice fest.

It's funny that people are down on the Big Turrets right now, calling them 'easy mode'. I find playing a YT2400 a big challenge, and I find playing any MF that's not Han to be more fun but also more difficult than people give it credit to be. My Chewbo list has been one of the most fun, exciting and difficult I've ever played, even though many would call it 'easy mode'...

I don't think flying Big Turrets is easy. It can be very challenging. I think it's easier to fly them than other ships. I think they have some advantages that other ships don't have. I think that given even player ability that the Big Turrets will win more often than not. It's my opinion that it's easier for a BT to recover from a mistake than it is other lists, which makes them easier to fly. Not easy to fly, but easier.

It's funny that people are down on the Big Turrets right now, calling them 'easy mode'. I find playing a YT2400 a big challenge, and I find playing any MF that's not Han to be more fun but also more difficult than people give it credit to be. My Chewbo list has been one of the most fun, exciting and difficult I've ever played, even though many would call it 'easy mode'...

I don't think flying Big Turrets is easy. It can be very challenging. I think it's easier to fly them than other ships. I think they have some advantages that other ships don't have. I think that given even player ability that the Big Turrets will win more often than not. It's my opinion that it's easier for a BT to recover from a mistake than it is other lists, which makes them easier to fly. Not easy to fly, but easier.

I don't think it's easier to fly them, I think that the general strategy that one would/should use while flying them is a bit easier. I do think that flying them well can be more challenging than small base ships. Fitting in and around asteroids and the various small base blockers that are sent your way is very difficult at times, and a good opponent will defeat you, usually by capitalizing on the movement issues you face. The strategy might be easier, but the ship itself is more difficult to fly than a small base.

Jacob

If you make a mistake with a Fat Turret, it's still easier to recover than with other ships. That's my point. Not that it's easy to fly a Fat Turret or that it isn't challenging. This, though, gives them an edge.

I have to ask, though. Do you think that the current Regionals results have such lopsided results for Fat Turrets is just due to the popularity of those lists?

I wouldn't agree

flying a large base is more challenging than flying a small base (more room for ****-ups), but it's not analogous to flying a large base with a 360 degree range 1-3 attack. You'll never have to sacrifice your shot unless your opponent can't shoot you, which is an insurance firesprays and aggressors will never enjoy, while maintaining a slew of action-step independent benefits.

Coupled with m.o.v advantages and complete lack of partial scoring, I can't really imagine a more forgiving ship.

If said forgiving nature was enough to win games at competitive events on its own, well we wouldn't even be having this discussion as the fatties would have been fixed already. But it remains that these ships are still forgiving, as evidenced by the fact that even 1 or 2 hull left over from even one or two poor throws of the dice from your opponent will reward him with exactly nothing, whereas one poor defense roll against the unavoidable turret can grant an unprecedented lead.

of course, a fattie could disappear after a few sustained rolls of hot dice eat through its plentiful health, but there is a crucial difference

the fattie can avoid having dice rolled at it. its opponents cannot. Well, unless it's a mirror match, in which case hope you roll better

If you make a mistake with a Fat Turret, it's still easier to recover than with other ships. That's my point. Not that it's easy to fly a Fat Turret or that it isn't challenging. This, though, gives them an edge.

I have to ask, though. Do you think that the current Regionals results have such lopsided results for Fat Turrets is just due to the popularity of those lists?

I think it's not because of the popularity that they're winning more, I think it's that they've been played more. Good players have been potentially been flying a Han with support or a dual YT-1300 or a Dash a lot longer than someone flying a couple IGs or some other Scum list. People have moved on from the Tie Swarm (yay!) from wave 1/2, but wave 3/4/5's stuff is still here and has been here much longer than wave 6's. I think a combination of experienced players playing what they know, good players having optimized good lists, and a strong preference for people to play things that they're familiar and comfortable with in a competitive situation has led to there being a high percentage of winners using a turret.

Note that while we see have seen turrets in more than %80 of the winning lists, not all of them have been fat, and some of them have been counter to the specific turrets that people hate the most (Phat Han).

My point is, the lists that people are using for Regionals has more variety, and significantly so, than ever before. It's more interesting and more fun to play this game. The fact Turrets are winning has less to do with the fact that Turret ships are overpowered, and more to do with the need for the game to develop a little bit further to increase the quality of the new variety.

Jacob

Also, I'd point to this recent (today I think) batrep that showed a grudge match between a XXB list (X-wings!) and a pair of YT-1300s (Fat Chewie and assisting Lando). Basically, the XXB player learned from his earlier loss, then the second match changed his tactics and had more success.

I had a similar experience while playing my Chewbo list at a tournament. In the Pre-lims I faced a Brobots list, something I had never faced, and was both shocked by the effectiveness of Autothrusters as well as caught off guard by some of the Advanced Sensor shenanigans they can get up to. In the final I faced the same list and was able to effectively win because I changed my tactics and won.

I believe that given time, experience, and a little help from future expansions, people will catch up to the Turrets and make them less of a factor. We will always see them, but I think that's appropriate. Han, Chewie, Lando and Dash are CORE to the Star Wars Universe. We should see them on the table, they should be rocking awesome abilities, and they're freaking expensive to play with so you have to be sure you WANT to play them.

Heaven forbid that my awesome Star Wars game never has Luke, Han, Wedge, or Chewie on the table anymore because they're the characters I want most to see.

jacob

Oh god why does the mirrored falcon look so horrifying

Also I doubt anyone's against seeing iconic characters. My problem is the rules they chose to represent the primary turret is just such a silly catch-all that can't be avoided without specific upgrades unless you don't want to shoot them either

Oh god why does the mirrored falcon look so horrifying

Also I doubt anyone's against seeing iconic characters. My problem is the rules they chose to represent the primary turret is just such a silly catch-all that can't be avoided without specific upgrades unless you don't want to shoot them either

I just don't agree with that statement. It's too pessimistic for me.

Jacob

I have to ask, though. Do you think that the current Regionals results have such lopsided results for Fat Turrets is just due to the popularity of those lists?

I think it's not because of the popularity that they're winning more, I think it's that they've been played more. Good players have been potentially been flying a Han with support or a dual YT-1300 or a Dash a lot longer than someone flying a couple IGs or some other Scum list.

I do get what you are saying, but I think that there is something more. Oh, it's not easy to pin point and I don't think people should be in an uproar, but I think that some of these serious guys play a lot of this game. There are a number of people who have played enough games that it shouldn't be a problem. While I agree that there are some lists that people will get better with, but I do think there is more too it then that. It's just my humble opinion, though.

Also, I'd point to this recent (today I think) batrep that showed a grudge match between a XXB list (X-wings!) and a pair of YT-1300s (Fat Chewie and assisting Lando). Basically, the XXB player learned from his earlier loss, then the second match changed his tactics and had more success.

Heaven forbid that my awesome Star Wars game never has Luke, Han, Wedge, or Chewie on the table anymore because they're the characters I want most to see.

jacob

I don't think they are unbeatable or that we shouldn't see them. What I do think is that they have a proper percentage of placement at the top listings as much as any other ship. Yes, you can improve against them. It's also easier to build a list that is targeting a specific build. It's harder to build a list that is good against all comers.

If you make a mistake with a Fat Turret, it's still easier to recover than with other ships. That's my point. Not that it's easy to fly a Fat Turret or that it isn't challenging. This, though, gives them an edge.

I have to ask, though. Do you think that the current Regionals results have such lopsided results for Fat Turrets is just due to the popularity of those lists?

Absolutely. The more people that fly it, the more likely it is to win.

I think it's not because of the popularity that they're winning more, I think it's that they've been played more.

Jacob

I think if this were true, you had fewer turrets making the elimination rounds than appear in the swiss (in terms of percentage). In actuality, YT 1300s and Decimators appear MORE frequently in the elimination rounds than in they do in the rest of the swiss. There are fewer YT 2400s, but that doesn't surprise me as it has some clear weaknesses.

I believe that given time, experience, and a little help from future expansions, people will catch up to the Turrets and make them less of a factor.

Large turrets have been around since Wave 2, so it's not like phantom. Their dominance started in Wave 4, but many attributed to the phantom. I think it's pretty clear they got a lot better because of other things (predator, 3PO at the least) as well. This means that for almost a year, we've seen turrets dominate and they are currently THE thing to beat, but they're still taking that top spot pretty regularly. My hunch is that, by far, they are the most popular archtype and people have a lot of opportunity to play against them. Maybe that will change soon, but I don't think the idea that people just don't have enough experience against them is really an excuse that holds much validity.

Large turrets have been around since Wave 2, so it's not like phantom. Their dominance started in Wave 4, but many attributed to the phantom. I think it's pretty clear they got a lot better because of other things (predator, 3PO at the least) as well. This means that for almost a year, we've seen turrets dominate and they are currently THE thing to beat, but they're still taking that top spot pretty regularly. My hunch is that, by far, they are the most popular archtype and people have a lot of opportunity to play against them. Maybe that will change soon, but I don't think the idea that people just don't have enough experience against them is really an excuse that holds much validity.

Double Falcons were pretty dominant in the summer of 2013. It wasn't until they changed the victory conditions to allow TIE swarms to get a full victory vs TIE swarms and the release of Wave 3 and the B-wing that the double Falcons fell out of favor. And then we all know what happened when Wave 4 hit.

I think it's not because of the popularity that they're winning more, I think it's that they've been played more.

Jacob

I think if this were true, you had fewer turrets making the elimination rounds than appear in the swiss (in terms of percentage). In actuality, YT 1300s and Decimators appear MORE frequently in the elimination rounds than in they do in the rest of the swiss. There are fewer YT 2400s, but that doesn't surprise me as it has some clear weaknesses.

I believe that given time, experience, and a little help from future expansions, people will catch up to the Turrets and make them less of a factor.

Large turrets have been around since Wave 2, so it's not like phantom. Their dominance started in Wave 4, but many attributed to the phantom. I think it's pretty clear they got a lot better because of other things (predator, 3PO at the least) as well. This means that for almost a year, we've seen turrets dominate and they are currently THE thing to beat, but they're still taking that top spot pretty regularly. My hunch is that, by far, they are the most popular archtype and people have a lot of opportunity to play against them. Maybe that will change soon, but I don't think the idea that people just don't have enough experience against them is really an excuse that holds much validity.

I think you've misunderstood me. It's not experience against the ships, it's experience with the new ships/lists people are using alternatively that will benefit. As you gain experience with the Brobots, you'll be better against the fairly predictable strategy of a typical Fat Han/Chiraneu list.

Jacob

Watch XXB beat two Falcons

(That was just posted by me above...)

Jacob

Oh god why does the mirrored falcon look so horrifying

Also I doubt anyone's against seeing iconic characters. My problem is the rules they chose to represent the primary turret is just such a silly catch-all that can't be avoided without specific upgrades unless you don't want to shoot them either

I just don't agree with that statement. It's too pessimistic for me.

Jacob

If you find that 361st degree or a nonepic ship that can fire at range 4, PLEASE let me know

Oh god why does the mirrored falcon look so horrifying

Also I doubt anyone's against seeing iconic characters. My problem is the rules they chose to represent the primary turret is just such a silly catch-all that can't be avoided without specific upgrades unless you don't want to shoot them either

I just don't agree with that statement. It's too pessimistic for me.

Jacob

If you find that 361st degree or a nonepic ship that can fire at range 4, PLEASE let me know

My disagreement is that it's a problem. You pay a lot for that turret and ability. It's not overpowered the way that you seem to think it is. If it were, nobody would take anything else, and it would never lose to even the swarms. I get that you don't like it, but I just don't agree that it's a problem.

Jacob

My disagreement is that it's a problem. You pay a lot for that turret and ability. It's not overpowered the way that you seem to think it is. If it were, nobody would take anything else, and it would never lose to even the swarms. I get that you don't like it, but I just don't agree that it's a problem.

Jacob

I don't think it's overpowered in that way, either, but I do think it's a problem. You do pay a lot for turrets, but what you get is greater than if you spent the points on something else.

I just think it's naive to think that all the Top 8 lists are pretty diverse, but that such a huge percentage of the top slots go to fat turrets and it's not something inherent in the ships. I don't believe that fat turrets are OP and wildly over powered. I do think there is something there, though, that gives them an advantage.