I ran Soontir, Turd, and Echo in anticipation of Turrets yesterday. I won the match I had against the turret list. But as others have said that list is unforgiving if a mistake is made.

...but you can't say the same for a Turret list. You can make a mistake, get shot up pretty hard, and then run for the hills until time is called. That's what gets me.

i am not as skilled as many of you who have won big tournaments in this game, so i wont pretend to understand your level of play. You're very likely miles ahead of me in game play and ability, and i have no problems admitting that.

And i think that might be where the disconnect is. I have noticed that almost everyone saying that turrets are no big deal have also at one point or another spoken about winning this or that, or top 8 in this big tournament. Maybe they aren't hard to beat because you're that much better than the average player, so its much easier for you and comes across as not a problem.

However, game balance, to my limited knowledge, should always balance to the average player. if turrets are stripping the fun out of the game, or damaging its tournament results in terms of participation and game balance, then they should look at it.

If i can draw the comparison, think of Jace: The Mind Sculptor from magic the gathering. He was banned from standard tournament play because a combination of cards became present that made the game unfun. For those that know, this was known as Caw-Blade and it was a terrible time to play magic in standard, not because of the tactics involved, but because EVERY deck you ran into was Caw-Blade. Sure there were outliers, like Birthing Pod, and some super aggressive builds, but in the end, it was Caw-Blade that consistently won. if you want to go back a bit, you could point to affinity in the mirroden block and get the same outcome. you can fast forward and point to affinity again in modern.

Now, I'm not and cant draw a direct conclusion to magic the gathering because the games aren't the same, however, there is one universal rule here i cant help be believe is in effect. Game designers should not rely on gamers to balance their game. A gamers job is to break the game open and give himself the most effective chance at winning. a game designers job is to balance that and prevent that from happening.

Now, i understand for the strongest players amongst us, that top 15 or 10% maybe playing turrets isn't a big deal, but tournament results don't lie, and since wave 2 from what i have read, and even further to the point is that if something is winning and is played at such a high percentage of all of these events, it seems to me that it would be better to deal with it and force the game to change than to just allow the same thing to continue happening.

I don't know, I'm not a game designer, but tournament results for several years running don't lie.

I've won small Store Championships, but not big games. I have also been playing the game since Wave 1, though. The trick to the big, turreted ships is to know how they work. They try to draw you through the asteroids. Don't fall for it. Wait for them to go through and hit them after they have committed. Next, their favorite tactic is to draw you after one of them for some R2-3 fire. Next, they will zip out an escape route and boost away. They usually dodge your arc and you find yourself chasing them as they fire behind you. Oh, and their friend follows you and blasts. The trick is to either not fall for their ploy, or try to block their escape route with a blocker.

Autothrusters are OP if anything (and won't ever see play by me as I haven't bought a Butterfly).

While I agree that Soontir is overplayed and that is an annoying type of game, he can also be beat. I won't agree that AutoThrusters are OP as my green dice crap out way too often and I still see Interceptors get one shot with AutoThrusters. They make arc dodgers viable again. Now, I'll agree that Soontir w/ Stealth and AutoThrusters is pretty dang hard.

He's clearly trolling about Autothrusters it was a nice attempt but he over sold it ill give it a 6/10.

If the metagame is JanKenPo (R/P/S) then the paper to the fat turrets rock would be Panic Attack and BBBBZ, not TIE swarms.

TIE swarms get shredded by Gunner, B-Wings do not. BBBBZ throws just as much red dice as a 7 TIE swarm, but it loses guns a lot slower than the TIE swarm does. Panic Attack has the ability to lock down a turret's mobility to make it harder to disrupt their firing arcs, as well as messing with the turrets damage mitigation systems.

TIE swarms have further baggage in that they're hard to fly, and they struggle against an equally skilled IG-88 or Soontir player.

If the game is sort of like Rock/Paper/Scissors, then why isn't the Swarm list taking top spot? Doesn't this counter Fat Turrets?

What's happening here? Bad dice? Bad piloting?

There's one thing, which should be mentioned: The game is not new anymore, so at a competitive level, there will be a large number of people who did not play from the start. And since about Wave 4, the TIE Swarm is perceived as not as viable as other lists anymore.

So when someone started at Wave 4, would he have bought 7-8 TIEs? I dont think so. There were many other ships to buy (as opposed to someone who started playing in Wave 1, where all you had were TIEs or Advanceds, which were not so good), and those other ships (Phantom, etc.) were perceived as better. So if you would only spend a certain amount of money, I don't think that the players invested as much in the TIE Swarm.

If the game is sort of like Rock/Paper/Scissors, then why isn't the Swarm list taking top spot? Doesn't this counter Fat Turrets?

What's happening here? Bad dice? Bad piloting?

There's one thing, which should be mentioned: The game is not new anymore, so at a competitive level, there will be a large number of people who did not play from the start. And since about Wave 4, the TIE Swarm is perceived as not as viable as other lists anymore.

So when someone started at Wave 4, would he have bought 7-8 TIEs? I dont think so. There were many other ships to buy (as opposed to someone who started playing in Wave 1, where all you had were TIEs or Advanceds, which were not so good), and those other ships (Phantom, etc.) were perceived as better. So if you would only spend a certain amount of money, I don't think that the players invested as much in the TIE Swarm.

That's a good point. There are a lot of people that don't own that many Ties. I mean, I don't own more than 3 Z 95s, so running an 8 Z 95 swarm is out of the question for me.

With all the expansions currently available, the days of people buying 3 starter kits to bulk up on Tie Fighters and X Wings are behind us. Heck, with how poor the X Wing has played out, it's almost a waste to get multiple starter kits these days, even for 2 x Tie Fighters.

There was a time where a swarm (specifically TIEs) was the only thing worth running.

It was "run a swarm or lose"

Yeah it used to be everyone just run as many generics as you can because the conventional wisdom was that the unique's were over costed. Now look where we are lol.

...and how long did those eras live? The reign of the Fat Turret has gone longer than both those eras combined.

I think its time to nerf boosting specially with an Engine Upgrade for large based ships like the barrel roll. I know it would hurt the Shuttle that doesn't need it, but it might be a necessary sacrifice.

The issue I see with turrets is the maneuverability combined with the 360 arc. Firing out of your arc, you shouldn't be able to boost or roll. Someone has to sit in that turret and fire and the chances or hitting your mark are insane when rocking and rolling.

Assuming that C3PO started the era of the fat turret, the all generic meta lasted from

September 14, 2012 to May 22, 2014 is

1 year 8 months and 8 days

C3PO has been around since then for

11 months and 26 days

Considering the Fat Turret did not gain prominence as soon as C3PO became available, I would say that the Fat Turret meta has not been around all that long.

oicuun is so rarely seen

He has won two regionals so far this year and reached top 8 in another. One of those wins was against Corran+Dash. Definitely viable.

I think its time to nerf boosting specially with an Engine Upgrade for large based ships like the barrel roll. I know it would hurt the Shuttle that doesn't need it, but it might be a necessary sacrifice.

If they start nerfing based upon the players, turrets may not be the only thing touched. In many other games, I would rather have had the players to counter builds instead of the developers changing the game every few months to clean the slate of strong builds.

Assuming that C3PO started the era of the fat turret, the all generic meta lasted from

September 14, 2012 to May 22, 2014 is

1 year 8 months and 8 days

C3PO has been around since then for

11 months and 26 days

Considering the Fat Turret did not gain prominence as soon as C3PO became available, I would say that the Fat Turret meta has not been around all that long.

Fat Han was around before C3PO. He just became fatter.

As already mentioned, the problem is the tournament environment - limited time and fatties not giving points away. I had an easy win against the typical corran+dash list with Kavil+Autoblaster turret, Palob +blaster turret+feedback array and 2 Z with feedback arrays. Corran was caught by kavil who took his shields and the 2 Z used feedback array to finish him. After that it was chasing down dash, staying in range 1 to him, which worked most of the times. The game ended with kavil sans shields, palob down to one hp and one Z down to one. We went beyond the regular time limit, so it would not have worked for a tournament.

The same list got shredded really fast by a ceptor list :-(

The solution to give half points for large ships could do the trick to change tournament meta, maybe calming the waters some (although the big complaint will then be the BBBBZ), as far as I remember I never left a fattie with more than 50% of hs total hp in my games.

As already mentioned, the problem is the tournament environment - limited time and fatties not giving points away. I had an easy win against the typical corran+dash list with Kavil+Autoblaster turret, Palob +blaster turret+feedback array and 2 Z with feedback arrays. Corran was caught by kavil who took his shields and the 2 Z used feedback array to finish him. After that it was chasing down dash, staying in range 1 to him, which worked most of the times. The game ended with kavil sans shields, palob down to one hp and one Z down to one. We went beyond the regular time limit, so it would not have worked for a tournament.

The same list got shredded really fast by a ceptor list :-(

The solution to give half points for large ships could do the trick to change tournament meta, maybe calming the waters some (although the big complaint will then be the BBBBZ), as far as I remember I never left a fattie with more than 50% of hs total hp in my games.

That's why I don't use HLC.

I vote "Fat Soontir will dominate the meta if turrets are nerfed!" as derptastic post of the year.

Soontir literally evaporates around Bugzappers.

I vote "Fat Soontir will dominate the meta if turrets are nerfed!" as derptastic post of the year.

Soontir literally evaporates around Bugzappers.

****

I owe my opponents a few models then

I vote "Fat Soontir will dominate the meta if turrets are nerfed!" as derptastic post of the year.

Soontir literally evaporates around Bugzappers.

****

I owe my opponents a few models then

Did you spray his models with ferrous paint and throw them into a real bugzapper?

I vote "Fat Soontir will dominate the meta if turrets are nerfed!" as derptastic post of the year.

Soontir literally evaporates around Bugzappers.

****

I owe my opponents a few models then

Did you spray his models with ferrous paint and throw them into a real bugzapper?

well I won, didn't I?

Hehe.

Welcome to the WAAC side, FGD.

Well to be honest, i am a bit surprised that turrets are that dominant on the regionals. I expected them to play a significant role like it should be, but that more than 2/3 of the lists are more or less fat turrets is unusual.

I think the explanation is a bit more complex than it might seem at first. Sure they are powerful, but they have hard counters. b's with FCS and BBBBZ should rip them apart, like Warthogs should. There are more counters, but the problem i see is that these counters need to be taken in numbers so they entirely fill your list. And the turret list can take Soontir, Corran or still a Phantom to counter these low PS ships, while running away with the turret taking occasional shots or arc dodging.

Good players know that and what happens? A huge percentage of the participating lists will be Turrets because they are also reliable lists and not that many players will even try to counter them. That explains why turrets are a little dominant these days. If a lot of players play turret lists its normal that they claim many victories i guess.

I was never a fan if nerfing them, and i am changing my mind a bit here, but as many have stated before i could imagine to just change Engine upgrade to small ships only. Like that the IG could keep its natural boost which it quite honestly needs to compete, but we would take away arc-dodging from most turret ships (well Dashs barrel roll is not as dramatic as a Chiraneau boosting past all your arcs i guess)

I think this measure alone would be plenty enough to bring turrets back into line. I never saw the mechanic itself as a problem because they DO pay a lot for the 360 arc but i think EU on large turrets IS finally too much for the competition to take.

You're way more likely to see them change the boost mechanic than take away red dice or have changing facing be an action. If they did the boost mechanic like they did the barrel roll where you use the side of the template I could see that wokring. Well boosting straight would be easy idk how you'd use the 1 bank.

no need to unduly nerf aggressors, sprays, and the upcoming YV-666 none of which have done anything wrong

though if an errata were coming, like it did with the barrel-rolling YT-2400, it might come with the engine upgrade packing yv

Because you can't turn the banks sideways, the best way to change the way boost works for large ships is to increase the cost of engine upgrade when equipping it on a large ship.
I really don't see that happening.