I do agree that the early Regionals were quite heavy on the turret ships. But, diversity is beginning to grow. There is hope.

Watch XXB beat two Falcons

I didn't respond the first time it was posted because I don't think one game really means anything (unless someone thinks they are completely unbeatable). Looking at the game, it's not one of the optimal falcon builds and was flown pretty predictably. I think it was also a pretty clear mistake to go after Porkins first. The list is good, but it doesn't contain a lot of the elements that people are concerned about with big turrets and is essentially a throwback. I've played against that build and beaten in with Brath/Jax/Backstabber in a tournament myself. I don't find it nearly on the level of Han+Talas or some other builds like Chewie+Leebo.

Oh god why does the mirrored falcon look so horrifying

Also I doubt anyone's against seeing iconic characters. My problem is the rules they chose to represent the primary turret is just such a silly catch-all that can't be avoided without specific upgrades unless you don't want to shoot them either

I just don't agree with that statement. It's too pessimistic for me.

Jacob

If you find that 361st degree or a nonepic ship that can fire at range 4, PLEASE let me know

My disagreement is that it's a problem. You pay a lot for that turret and ability. It's not overpowered the way that you seem to think it is. If it were, nobody would take anything else, and it would never lose to even the swarms. I get that you don't like it, but I just don't agree that it's a problem.

Jacob

never said it was overpowered

I just don't like it

I just can't see how it isn't a problem to have a ship that can fire at the same maximum range as every other ship only it can fire at any angle and thus always hurt you no matter how you maneuver. apart from adding green dice (so reliable) or getting it to park on a space peanut, you're getting shot if you're shooting the turret. There is no counterplay to that unless you're Arvel

It's incredibly dis-involving and puts undue emphasis on the dice, since really all you can do is allign arcs and hope you hurt it enough. TBF, the turret player does not have to suffer this when he gets to enjoy playing against something that isn't a turret

mind you this is only in the case of the character yt-1300s and the vt-49 decimators (Range 1-3 primary weapon turrets). The yt-2400 is a perfect compromise between a sh*tty rule and de-emphasizing it to the point where it ceases to be a burden. You can never dodge a title-less yt-2400 technically, but you can greatly cut down on its damage by staying out of arc of the cannon, which gives your maneuvers a lot more meaning. If that yt-2400 is an HLC outrider, you can avoid damage entirely by forcing it into range one (and blocking it is devastating because it loses its action ) which influences where it can go and how you have to move to intercept it.

The yt-2400 is, imo, what the standard of primary weapon turret should be. The k-wing looks like it's progressing in that direction as well.

Watch XXB beat two Falcons

They don't have engines. They also jousted. This is not why fat lists are so effective vs. 'normal' ships.

Watch XXB beat two Falcons

They don't have engines. They also jousted. This is not why fat lists are so effective vs. 'normal' ships.

My point wasn't about the list, but about how the second matchup against a specific list can sometimes yield positive results. It's about gaining experience, learning from mistakes, adjusting strategy.

Turret ships really have limited strategic variance. There's some, and a really good driver will pilot his YT or Deci around in unpredictable ways.

By the way, when I played against the Brobots the first time, I tried the typical YT strategy and it nearly failed me until I adjusted part way in. Then, the next time I used my big bases to joust and it went much, much better for me. Jousting with your YT ships is sometimes the answer... rarely, but sometimes.

Jacob

Another store championship without Fatties

Another store championship without Fatties

Oh look, a battle report that's actually entertaining.

Also, I'd point to this recent (today I think) batrep that showed a grudge match between a XXB list (X-wings!) and a pair of YT-1300s (Fat Chewie and assisting Lando). Basically, the XXB player learned from his earlier loss, then the second match changed his tactics and had more success.

I had a similar experience while playing my Chewbo list at a tournament. In the Pre-lims I faced a Brobots list, something I had never faced, and was both shocked by the effectiveness of Autothrusters as well as caught off guard by some of the Advanced Sensor shenanigans they can get up to. In the final I faced the same list and was able to effectively win because I changed my tactics and won.

I believe that given time, experience, and a little help from future expansions, people will catch up to the Turrets and make them less of a factor. We will always see them, but I think that's appropriate. Han, Chewie, Lando and Dash are CORE to the Star Wars Universe. We should see them on the table, they should be rocking awesome abilities, and they're freaking expensive to play with so you have to be sure you WANT to play them.

Heaven forbid that my awesome Star Wars game never has Luke, Han, Wedge, or Chewie on the table anymore because they're the characters I want most to see.

jacob

Seems like the falcon player could have not blown the double evades against wes' attack in order to shutdown opportunist. Maybe i'm overthinking it but usually you get hits with eight dice. But obviously this one example clearly shows that turrets are totally fine and we can ignore the mountains of data to the contrary.

Oh god why does the mirrored falcon look so horrifying

Oh god why does the mirrored falcon look so horrifying

And why is the B-wing pointing up?

There's no up in space...seriously dude...seriously.

Oh god why does the mirrored falcon look so horrifying

And why is the B-wing pointing up?

There's no up in space...seriously dude...seriously.

Oh god why does the mirrored falcon look so horrifying

Also I doubt anyone's against seeing iconic characters. My problem is the rules they chose to represent the primary turret is just such a silly catch-all that can't be avoided without specific upgrades unless you don't want to shoot them either

I just don't agree with that statement. It's too pessimistic for me.

Jacob

If you find that 361st degree or a nonepic ship that can fire at range 4, PLEASE let me know

My disagreement is that it's a problem. You pay a lot for that turret and ability. It's not overpowered the way that you seem to think it is. If it were, nobody would take anything else, and it would never lose to even the swarms. I get that you don't like it, but I just don't agree that it's a problem.

Jacob

never said it was overpowered

I just don't like it

I just can't see how it isn't a problem to have a ship that can fire at the same maximum range as every other ship only it can fire at any angle and thus always hurt you no matter how you maneuver. apart from adding green dice (so reliable) or getting it to park on a space peanut, you're getting shot if you're shooting the turret. There is no counterplay to that unless you're Arvel

It's incredibly dis-involving and puts undue emphasis on the dice, since really all you can do is allign arcs and hope you hurt it enough. TBF, the turret player does not have to suffer this when he gets to enjoy playing against something that isn't a turret

mind you this is only in the case of the character yt-1300s and the vt-49 decimators (Range 1-3 primary weapon turrets). The yt-2400 is a perfect compromise between a sh*tty rule and de-emphasizing it to the point where it ceases to be a burden. You can never dodge a title-less yt-2400 technically, but you can greatly cut down on its damage by staying out of arc of the cannon, which gives your maneuvers a lot more meaning. If that yt-2400 is an HLC outrider, you can avoid damage entirely by forcing it into range one (and blocking it is devastating because it loses its action ) which influences where it can go and how you have to move to intercept it.

The yt-2400 is, imo, what the standard of primary weapon turret should be. The k-wing looks like it's progressing in that direction as well.

And it was to expect that you would cry havoc now that we have an event somewhat dominated by turrets (till now that is!)

The point is they could remove or nerf boosting on large ships except the IG maybe. That would be quite reasonable to do as they are plain faster than any other ship in the game, which is nonsense. Well in fluff they say the Falcon is super fast, but honestly...

But the other point is that the turret mechanic is not broken and costed approximatively right. This is just your subjective view that you really hate it. I like it. Others too. There is no reasonto change it in any way really!

Seems like the falcon player could have not blown the double evades against wes' attack in order to shutdown opportunist. Maybe i'm overthinking it but usually you get hits with eight dice. But obviously this one example clearly shows that turrets are totally fine and we can ignore the mountains of data to the contrary.

You're not ovethinking it at all. The Falcon player could not have played that game any worse if he tried. Spending the tokens was just the final nail in the coffin; he threw the game the moment he decided to charge straight at a list that is built to do nothing but joust.

Another store championship without Fatties

I've been considering running almost that exact Soontir Swarm list.

I ran Carnor with 4 BSPs and Predator a few weeks back, fun idea, but thought I'd try Howl instead with Soontir. It is tough not having stealth, though.

Alright, we know that you don't like turrets.

And it was to expect that you would cry havoc now that we have an event somewhat dominated by turrets (till now that is!)

The point is they could remove or nerf boosting on large ships except the IG maybe. That would be quite reasonable to do as they are plain faster than any other ship in the game, which is nonsense. Well in fluff they say the Falcon is super fast, but honestly...

But the other point is that the turret mechanic is not broken and costed approximatively right. This is just your subjective view that you really hate it. I like it. Others too. There is no reasonto change it in any way really!

there is plenty of reason to remove primary weapon turrets

it's a horribly all-inclusive mechanic with no counterplay apart from green dice and auto-thrusters. The raw stats involved might not make it op, but any mechanic that removes a player's contribution (apart from rolling the dice) from the equation that completely is generally not a good example of game design when it's supposed to be a tactical miniatures game.

there is certainly far more rationale to get rid of that advantage than large base boosts, which would unduly penalize non-primary turrets (shuttle, firespray, aggressor, yv-666) none of which are nearly as abusable as EU turrets because they actually have to pay attention to their facing

All this Fat Turret shaming. They just want to play X-Wing too.

there is plenty of reason to remove primary weapon turrets

it's a horribly all-inclusive mechanic with no counterplay apart from green dice and auto-thrusters. The raw stats involved might not make it op, but any mechanic that removes a player's contribution (apart from rolling the dice) from the equation that completely is generally not a good example of game design when it's supposed to be a tactical miniatures game.

there is certainly far more rationale to get rid of that advantage than large base boosts, which would unduly penalize non-primary turrets (shuttle, firespray, aggressor, yv-666) none of which are nearly as abusable as EU turrets because they actually have to pay attention to their facing

This gross simplification continues to annoy me. Maneuvering is still important for turrets. It just isn't important for getting a target. Obstacles and other ships are still things that need to be maneuvered around.

How you view the game is not the truth for everyone.

@ficklegreendice

I think mostly agree with Sithborg. There are still maneuvering issues for turrets to deal with, they are just more subtle, and less appreciated, and really only noticeable when comparing turret players to turret players, not turret players to non-turret players. There IS obviously an advantage with Turrets vs non Turrets, but I've always felt it was costed appropriately. Heck, maybe the relative cost of Turrets needs to be re-evaluated now that there are so many ways to make them accurate and reliably defensive, but that's another topic I think.

Also, I think if you started putting things like "I think" in front of some of your opinions I think people would be less opposed to some of your thoughts on turrets! In general, it is sometimes the overuse of "absolute, this is the truth" language that put people off on the forums more than a person's actual views on a topic.

I've said it before, but the biggest problem is the falcon, not turrets all together. The decimator is agility 0, and can only get 1 evade at most with isaard, and only after taking at least 5 damage first. Outriders have a range 1 blind spot when using HLC, and only have 10 hit points. They are both very tough to be sure, especially when upgraded, but not as bad as the falcon.

The problem is the falcon has 13 hit points, with 1 agility, and has no less than FOUR different ways it can avoid damage (Title, 3PO, R2, Jan). That would be fine if it could only take 1 of those at a time, but it can easily take two, and sometimes even 3.

there is plenty of reason to remove primary weapon turrets

it's a horribly all-inclusive mechanic with no counterplay apart from green dice and auto-thrusters. The raw stats involved might not make it op, but any mechanic that removes a player's contribution (apart from rolling the dice) from the equation that completely is generally not a good example of game design when it's supposed to be a tactical miniatures game.

there is certainly far more rationale to get rid of that advantage than large base boosts, which would unduly penalize non-primary turrets (shuttle, firespray, aggressor, yv-666) none of which are nearly as abusable as EU turrets because they actually have to pay attention to their facing

This gross simplification continues to annoy me. Maneuvering is still important for turrets. It just isn't important for getting a target. Obstacles and other ships are still things that need to be maneuvered around.

How you view the game is not the truth for everyone.

what? do turrets not shoot through obstacles or other ships? that'd be amazing

way I've been playing obstructed shots just add a green die to the defender's roll, both ways if you have a shoot that you're not guaranteed to have, and intervening ships don't obstruct anything without jammers

or are you just saying the turret has to account for the same things as every other ship in the game, only it's still guaranteed to shoot at something in range unless it parks on a space peanut or a non arvel-ship gives up its own shot to block it?

@ficklegreendice

I think mostly agree with Sithborg. There are still maneuvering issues for turrets to deal with, they are just more subtle, and less appreciated, and really only noticeable when comparing turret players to turret players, not turret players to non-turret players. There IS obviously an advantage with Turrets vs non Turrets, but I've always felt it was costed appropriately. Heck, maybe the relative cost of Turrets needs to be re-evaluated now that there are so many ways to make them accurate and reliably defensive, but that's another topic I think.

Also, I think if you started putting things like "I think" in front of some of your opinions I think people would be less opposed to some of your thoughts on turrets! In general, it is sometimes the overuse of "absolute, this is the truth" language that put people off on the forums more than a person's actual views on a topic.

hey it's the forums, and with all these posts sometimes I slip up on the "imos" and "personalies" etc.

doesn't mean anyone should misinterpret me as some kind of absolute authority, or that I'm saying primary turrets are imbalanced

I'm saying two things

First I'm saying that primary weapon turrets have the same maximum range as every other ship in the game and you can't avoid getting shot by them if you want to shoot them apart from space peanut or giving up your shot to block them, extenuating circumstances pending (biggs, arvel).

These are facts derived from the game rules, my opinions have absolutely no say on the matter. If I missed something or misinterpreted, then please tell me because I would love nothing better to play against turrets in almost literally any different way.

Second, I'm saying that in regards to their current implementation as I understand it, I think that it's a bunch of bull and I don't believe such a failsafe advantage belongs in this game. I'm glad the turret player has fun considering obstacles and other ships, but I feel more enjoyment tackling any other ship in the game because not only do we have to consider the bare minimum presence of obstacles and other ships but I can attempt to maneuver in such a way that forces decisions between flying defensively (voiding a shot to align oneself from danger or for next turn) or offensively (aligning arc on the target and tossing dice) and because I have to make those decisions myself. A primary turret, I feel, never has to make that decision since its shots are simply not restricted to its facing. These guaranteed shots, in turn, seems to place a lot more emphasis on the inevitable dice it's throwing and a lot less on my flying.

2ndary weapon turrets, including the outrider and cannon-equipped non-outrider yt-2400s, are imo all enjoyable to fly against because they all operate on restrictions that can be played around by maneuvering

This feeling of inevitable, almost literally unavoidable full-strength fire from primary weapon turrets leads me to prefer playing against any other ship in the game. Even the pre-errata phantom had limits on what it could shoot.

Alright, we know that you don't like turrets.

And it was to expect that you would cry havoc now that we have an event somewhat dominated by turrets (till now that is!)

The point is they could remove or nerf boosting on large ships except the IG maybe. That would be quite reasonable to do as they are plain faster than any other ship in the game, which is nonsense. Well in fluff they say the Falcon is super fast, but honestly...

But the other point is that the turret mechanic is not broken and costed approximatively right. This is just your subjective view that you really hate it. I like it. Others too. There is no reasonto change it in any way really!

there is plenty of reason to remove primary weapon turrets

it's a horribly all-inclusive mechanic with no counterplay apart from green dice and auto-thrusters. The raw stats involved might not make it op, but any mechanic that removes a player's contribution (apart from rolling the dice) from the equation that completely is generally not a good example of game design when it's supposed to be a tactical miniatures game.

there is certainly far more rationale to get rid of that advantage than large base boosts, which would unduly penalize non-primary turrets (shuttle, firespray, aggressor, yv-666) none of which are nearly as abusable as EU turrets because they actually have to pay attention to their facing

It goes on with asteroid placement, ship setup, approach, range management, action economy, movement, boost/barrel during the engagement and focus firing. There are PLENTY of decisions and plays to be made by the turret player and his enemy.

In my book large ships, especially Falcons and VTs (and those are the ones we are talking about mainly winning in series) don't last very long at all if you manage to focus fire them. They are very costly and even with C3PO and all the tricks in the book they melt like choclate in the sun when facing 10-12+ attack dice each turn. The one thing preventing this is arc dodging via EU. Very often you manage to partially or totally avoid arcs so that the enemy does not get as many shots as he needs to truly hurt the turret ship!

And that's why, if there is any need to make a change about turrets, it lies in denying them boost, or change it at least.

Nerfing the ships in any other fashion probably just results in making them unplayably bad, and that's something a vast majority of players would not want! And nobody except you talks about removing them... Terrible idea!