If the game is sort of like Rock/Paper/Scissors, then why isn't the Swarm list taking top spot? Doesn't this counter Fat Turrets?

What's happening here? Bad dice? Bad piloting?

Hard to get a good MoV score with a swarm. Also, time limits are tough on 7-8 ship builds.

Arc-dodging lists, particularly lists with two arc-dodgers, are shredding swarms.

Well. The fats with engine are also arc Dodgers.

If the game is sort if like Rock/Paper/Scissors, then why isn't the Swarm list taking top spot? Doesn't this counter Fat Turrets?

What's happening here? Bad dice? Bad piloting?

That's an easy one: the game isn't really like paper-rock-scissors.

I also find it interesting that 7-Tie Swarms are so under-represented in the present meta. And I would push back on the assessment that Tie Swarms auto-lose to arc dodgers (and/or auto-thrusters) and fat turrets with engine.

Dom recently won the Campaign Against Cancer tournament in South Bend with a 7-Tie Swarm, defeating Double Aggressors in the final round. Hothie, Texx, and several others flew Swarms to Top-32 and better at Worlds last year in a meta that was defined by Fat Han and named Phantoms.

Locally, the 7-Tie Swarm has achieved modest success, placing Top-2 or Top-4 in several Store Championships and other tournaments here in Colorado over the past three months.

So, to the original question - why aren't we seeing them more frequently at large events?

Regionals veterans: are the MoV limitations and poor match ups really limiting the success of Tie Swarms? Or is there simply a dearth of swarms in the meta overall due to other factors?

Super ships with stuff like IG - 88B's ability, FCS, and HLC, the Predator card, etc. have the ability to just take a TIE off the board every turn or so. So even if you fly a swarm against what supposedly is countered by it, you'll end up in a spot where you have 5 TIE Fighters left and your opponent has Dash with a shield left and at that point you've lost.

The problem with super ships is that while they cost a lot of points, Fat Falcons can take out ~60 points of TIEs, Super Dash can take out ~60 points of TIEs, even post nerf a super Phantom could probably take out take out 4 TIEs.

When a Fat Turret has engine it becomes an arc dodger. Super Dash is THE arc dodger.

MoV pounds them.

Real time limit. Also doesn't help how easy it is to exploit this time limit without any consequence.

People wanting an accurate game state. When the players have to mark ships to see if someone's large base can 3 bank through 3 TIE Fighters the game is over for the swarm player. As a swarm player myself I also want to be accurate with all of my maneuvers in order to not bump, so that eats up time.

Events not following the tournament rules that state the time limit starts AFTER everyone has moved and setup all of their stuff on the proper tables, determined initiative, placed obstacles, and placed ships in the starting area. At least the events in my area don't follow this.

People flying turrets and just 2 ship lists in general will do everything in their power to not let you joust them, which is where the swarm is best, and is where Howlrunner shines. If I have to fly over every god damned asteroid on the field just to get shots on Super Dash I'm A.) Probably no longer in formation and can't bring any significant firepower to bear, and B.) not flying Howlrunner because I've had to deal with a meta dominated by this annoying stuff since Wave 5, and even if I did she'd either already be dead or not near enough of my ships.

Yeah, the game isn't longer rock paper scissors. It's this weird broken version of it where rocks are about as good now as scissors at doing their job so the rock vs paper matchup is roughly a coin flip with a slight advantage to paper, and scissors still cut up paper pretty well while also being pretty good at being rocks.

Para, thanks for the insightful reply. And fair enough on all points.

As a fellow swarm player, my next question would be, is there any recourse?

My first thought is to try to raise the red dice count of the swarm against fat turrets, so that when the game reduces to a 4-5 Tie v. Fat Turret dogfight, you're loaded for bear. This could be achieved with Alphas (reducing your ship count to 6) or Backstabber, Mauler, etc...

My second thought is raise the swarm's PS to at least three. Something like Howl/Hull/Determination and 6 Obsidians. This might provide a decisive advantage against BBBBZ, Rebel Control, etc… but would likely yield games to well-flown fat turrets.

Or perhaps the answer is simpler than any of this: fly better.

Is there anything I'm missing?

Clearly some of the elite players have found a way to win using a swarm and in a meta that is assessed to be hostile to 7 Ties.

The problem with a PS bid to 3 or just flat out running 7 Black Squadrons is that you're still lower than every fat turret and arc dodger in the game besides for a generic outrider 2400, which I've still yet to see.

Maybe a Howlrunner/Mauler swarm tactics chain? Even then you're kind of gimped.

The problem is that often you can't fly better, that no matter how well you fly super Dash WTH large boost and barrel roll can just dodge everything.

The problem with a PS bid to 3 or just flat out running 7 Black Squadrons is that you're still lower than every fat turret and arc dodger in the game besides for a generic outrider 2400, which I've still yet to see.

Maybe a Howlrunner/Mauler swarm tactics chain? Even then you're kind of gimped.

The problem is that often you can't fly better, that no matter how well you fly super Dash WTH large boost and barrel roll can just dodge everything.

When super Dash boosts and barrel rolls what does he gain? A stress token. So now he wants to clear that stress correct? Only way a 2400 can clear is with 1 banks, and 1 or 2 forward unless taken with nien. This makes Dash very predictable. Also when going against big ships boost please don't chase them, they're boost and barrel roll lanes will be wide open. make them come to you and always take into account those boosts and barrel rolls when setting your dials.

How can I not chase one? If I slow down or try to peel off then my opponent could just hard one and barrel roll or something. Because a turret with an HLC needed to have a better dial than the Firespray. *sigh*

Much of the problem I have with fat Dash is that at any given time, almost every move he has is viable because turret and HLC ignoring range bonuses and boost and barrel roll and obstacles not affecting him in any significant manner, so it's super difficult to predict where he'll be. Generally after he stresses himself out he'll be in a spot where a green maneuver wouldn't be a problem and then he can boost and barrel roll if he wants to again.

Against regular turrets this isn't as much of a problem. Asteroids limit their maneuverability, not being able large ship barrel roll, not having an HLC so I can stay at a distance and at least attempt to tank damage, etc.

Somewhere along the line someone decided game outcomes should be decided in the list building phase. This is when single strategy type lists like swarms died. A list that is only good at one thing cannot beat a list that has an HLC turret than is good at everything, and an escort that is good at everything/good at the scant few things that the turret isn't. See: Decimator Phantom, 2400/1300 + Super Corran, Dual Aggressors, etc.

There was also a decision to balance things around overpowered BS instead of in line with most everything else in the game. So instead of seeing that the super Phantom is OP and making wave 5 less obnoxious, let's make something that can match it in power/shenanigans. Note how Dual Agressors are the only thing to come out of scum that actually changed the meta, and coincidentally they can stack FCS and better gunner and HLC because we need something on par with all the rest of the broken crap. This is the real reason ships like the Defender and X Wing are bad, not because they're overcosted by a few points, but because they're also just normal ships without the ability to do anything on par with a super ship such as Dash. A Wings aren't bad either an extra 3 points over z's/TIEs and would be okay against 'normal' ships but against super dash? Good luck.

Tie swarms aren't auto-lose to anything

They have the speed and manueverability to block soontir, keep pace with fatties (to an extent), and have some incredible damage potential

but the tournie structure hates swarms:

1. You, the swarm player, have to manage 7-8 ships every game for x amount of games. That **** ain't easy and people get tired. Tired people make mistakes. Makes made with tie fighters result in dead tie fighters.

2. As covered, m.o.v is a piece of ****. Every ship of lose chucks you down the ranks, unless you managed to win every game (good luck!)

3. My name...multiplied by the number of games you play in

It ain't easy being a swarm

How you gonna predict where Dash is going if he's not the Boost/BR type?

This is good insight on why Swarms aren't the top: the time limit. I never thought about that, because I normally fly casual.

Swarm does not counter fat turrets, thanks to the distance covered by big ship boost and barrel roll, combined with the lack of need to have targets in arc, fat turrets are rock and both swarms and arc dodgers are scissors. Thanks to 3po, Kyle katarn, and isard control is also scissors.

Your options are rock or scissors, turrets or not winning. Yeah some people will point to the diversity in the top 8 and try to give you some garbage about MOV favoring turrets in then timed rounds, but we've got something like 17 regionals in the books and fat turrets have won 14 of them. That's two maybe three ships that haven't been stopped. Everyone knows they'll have to face fat turrets yet somehow no one has come up with a way to consistently beat them.

I used to go into every tournament knowing id have to face phantoms and turrets. I knew how to play phantoms and id wreck them. I got luck against a turret player once and won a SC out of it. Turret players tell you phantoms and interceptors are the reason they play turrets, yet phantoms get the Nerf and turrets completely take over. Again, forget about the top 8, lets look at the winners and they are turrets. Paul Heaver even talked about it, he went in to worlds 2014 knowing her have to beat fat Han and all he came up with was fatter Han. As you may recall, he won. But obviously turrets are fine.

Maybe the boost to bombs will help. I see large ships having the hardest time with bombs.

Fat turrets are the ships least affected by bombs. A Decimator has 16 health, who cares it it gets hit by a few seismics.

Fat turrets are the ships least affected by bombs. A Decimator has 16 health, who cares it it gets hit by a few seismics.

by the current selection of bombs*

a man can hope

Fat turrets are the ships least affected by bombs. A Decimator has 16 health, who cares it it gets hit by a few seismics.

by the current selection of bombs*

a man can hope

yeah the current selection. we do have the TIE Punisher coming

Fat turrets are the ships least affected by bombs. A Decimator has 16 health, who cares it it gets hit by a few seismics.

by the current selection of bombs*

a man can hope

yeah the current selection. we do have the TIE Punisher coming

aye, we got the heavy duty bombers coming

these are the guys you call in when you need an area reduced to ruin or a capital ship bombed into submission. If they don't pack at least something that can handle one sh*tty freighter...

Because meta changes are instantaneous. There is no period of having to relearn the meta when a drastic change happens, like the change to decloaking.

Diversity is starting to crop up. But, that is all negated becuase they aren't winning it all apparently. So, go ahead and keep changing the goal posts until turret primaries are no longer viable.

Dear god turrets are not unbeatable. Are they hard? Yeah but they're paying for over half there list and they don't throw as many red dice. Para you do NOT have to chase them, that is what they want you to do if you don't have auto thrusters. Hell stay back in the corner and don't go anywhere until he comes to you then as soon as he starts to go towards his board edge break off and head back to your corner.

You guys honestly just sound like you've given up and are defeated. Stop sitting on the forums complaining about these results you see. You're all waiting for the next list that can beat turrets so you all can start playing it and get your wins. Make that list, make that strategy. It's out there. Be the person who finds it.

Dear god turrets are not unbeatable. Are they hard? Yeah but they're paying for over half there list and they don't throw as many red dice. Para you do NOT have to chase them, that is what they want you to do if you don't have auto thrusters. Hell stay back in the corner and don't go anywhere until he comes to you then as soon as he starts to go towards his board edge break off and head back to your corner.

You guys honestly just sound like you've given up and are defeated. Stop sitting on the forums complaining about these results you see. You're all waiting for the next list that can beat turrets so you all can start playing it and get your wins. Make that list, make that strategy. It's out there. Be the person who finds it.

I agree with you, especially in casual play. Your point here about people waiting for the new lists could also factor into us not seeing too much diversity in the Top 8 lists.

Dear god turrets are not unbeatable. Are they hard? Yeah but they're paying for over half there list and they don't throw as many red dice. Para you do NOT have to chase them, that is what they want you to do if you don't have auto thrusters. Hell stay back in the corner and don't go anywhere until he comes to you then as soon as he starts to go towards his board edge break off and head back to your corner.

You guys honestly just sound like you've given up and are defeated. Stop sitting on the forums complaining about these results you see. You're all waiting for the next list that can beat turrets so you all can start playing it and get your wins. Make that list, make that strategy. It's out there. Be the person who finds it.

They won worlds, they won the tco, they won heavily in the store championships, they're winning an obscene rate of regionals. Again everyone KNOWS they have to beat turrets yet turrets are still the king. You tell us what to take. If there's some magical anti turret build that obviously only a genius like you could think of, you tell us and we'll take it and beat turrets. In July it will have been a year of fat turret total dominance, they are not a surprise or some well played niche, they are flat out better than everything else and you either play them or win. That's all. I'm happy you can feel better about yourself by winning at a crappy version of this game but the rest of us would like to go back to playing what used to be x wing.

eh, primary weapon turrets are beatable. Even as someone who hates them, I'll be the first to admit it

you want a challenge, though? try making them enjoyable to play against

bonus points for doing it without the aid of alcohol or similar substances

Dear god turrets are not unbeatable. Are they hard? Yeah but they're paying for over half there list and they don't throw as many red dice.

You know what annoys me? When I say that something in this game is overpowered or an autoloss or game breaking and someone else says something like, "Yeah, that thing is super powerful and hard to beat but it's not overpowered." Because that person actually agrees with me that that particular thing is broken but they're unwilling to use particular words or to be on the same side of the argument as me because I complain.

You guys honestly just sound like you've given up and are defeated.

1.) Pretty much.

2.) We all know how to deal with turrets it's just that we are unwilling to play those counters ourselves because we want to actually have fun playing this game and not just also fly a turret or brobots.

You're all waiting for the next list that can beat turrets so you all can start playing it and get your wins. Make that list, make that strategy. It's out there. Be the person who finds it.

It's called spamming B Wings. I like flying B Wing spam lists but I don't feel like flying those every game. It's also kind of ****** how you can't defeat certain lists by outflying them, only by happening to fly a counter list. You used to be able to make a half decent list and have a reasonable chance of winning if you were better than your opponent. The game never used to be based around hard countering stuff.

Now? Welp this TIE Bomber list can't possibly deal with an HLC Turret that can boost and barrel roll, guess I can't fly that. Captain Yorr and 3 red PtL Interceptors? Don't have enough points for Autothrusters, can't fly that. The only 'normal' ships you can play anymore and have a reasonable chance of winning with are Interceptors (particularly Soontir), B Wings, the occasional Y Wing, and swarms (on paper). Apart from a handful of certain gimmick builds like 4x Sigma Squadron Phantom, that's all that's viable besides for super ships in the current meta. And it's annoying.