The X-wing works fine.

But only in a limited set of builds. An XXXZZZ list, for example, makes the best use of the x-wing's limited talents.

Unfortunately the number of lists where an x-wing of any variety is better than another ship is quite small. You need to build around an x-wing, but by doing that you tend to create an inherently weaker list than if you hadn't.

Damned if I know how to fix it though...

All this does is add numbers by adding extra Z-95s. By not taking any named pilots, you essentially are playing a numbers advantage, which is common through all ship builds and not just the X-wing. This is the reason no one bothers to take XXXXZ, you lose two Z's and have 12 less shields than the closest comparison, BBBBZ. I don't believe that just playing to the low PS generic rebel swarm meta is innovative and I am starting to seriously reconsider the second and third order effects that the Phantom nerf is having on the game as a whole, even after being a huge proponent of nerfing the Phantom in the exact way it functions now.

you can reconsider the nerf after we stop seeing nothing but two ship fatties at regionals

after all, Luke does considerably well against generics, especially against 2 dice zs and ties (it's really not fair, for them)

People asking for a fix, read the dang post.

On topic:

I still think the X-Wing's greatest strength is its ability to fly in formation with a bunch of dangerous, high PS aces. Unlike the TIE Swarm, X-Wings should always strike first.

The XXX opportunist list (Wes, Wedge, and Luke) is tremendous and doesn't fear turrets. Stress-Wes is excellent Phantom control. So for me the question is how can we maximize these high PS ships and abilities. I believe firmly in Opportunist, especially since a basic R2 synergizes so well.

Lone Wolf seems almost ideal, but it doesn't mesh with the formation flying my X-Wings rely on.

I was messing around with a XXXZ build that uses Wes+VI, Wedge+Opportunist, Biggs, and a Bandit. It can have some good effects on target, especially at range 1. It took 3rd or 4th in a casual tournament a couple weeks ago but suffered against lists that featured Autothrusters. In one game against my buddy, the game went to time in what spectators described as a pillow fight between a perpetually turtled AT/SD Soontir and the Wes/Wedge combination.

The X-wing works fine.

But only in a limited set of builds. An XXXZZZ list, for example, makes the best use of the x-wing's limited talents.

Unfortunately the number of lists where an x-wing of any variety is better than another ship is quite small. You need to build around an x-wing, but by doing that you tend to create an inherently weaker list than if you hadn't.

Damned if I know how to fix it though...

All this does is add numbers by adding extra Z-95s. By not taking any named pilots, you essentially are playing a numbers advantage, which is common through all ship builds and not just the X-wing. This is the reason no one bothers to take XXXXZ, you lose two Z's and have 12 less shields than the closest comparison, BBBBZ. I don't believe that just playing to the low PS generic rebel swarm meta is innovative and I am starting to seriously reconsider the second and third order effects that the Phantom nerf is having on the game as a whole, even after being a huge proponent of nerfing the Phantom in the exact way it functions now.

you can reconsider the nerf after we stop seeing nothing but two ship fatties at regionals

after all, Luke does considerably well against them.

Dual Fatties and most two ship builds were so easy to handle though! Lol. I'm just a dinosaur I guess. I see all these new ships and think, "dude, I wish the X-wing could do that" and then roll blanks against a gunner/FCS/Focus reroll.

The X-wing works fine.

But only in a limited set of builds. An XXXZZZ list, for example, makes the best use of the x-wing's limited talents.

Unfortunately the number of lists where an x-wing of any variety is better than another ship is quite small. You need to build around an x-wing, but by doing that you tend to create an inherently weaker list than if you hadn't.

Damned if I know how to fix it though...

All this does is add numbers by adding extra Z-95s. By not taking any named pilots, you essentially are playing a numbers advantage, which is common through all ship builds and not just the X-wing. This is the reason no one bothers to take XXXXZ, you lose two Z's and have 12 less shields than the closest comparison, BBBBZ. I don't believe that just playing to the low PS generic rebel swarm meta is innovative and I am starting to seriously reconsider the second and third order effects that the Phantom nerf is having on the game as a whole, even after being a huge proponent of nerfing the Phantom in the exact way it functions now.

you can reconsider the nerf after we stop seeing nothing but two ship fatties at regionals

after all, Luke does considerably well against generics, especially against 2 dice zs and ties (it's really not fair, for them)

Also even if not, i prefer seeing Soontir plus Fattie win over Phantom plus Fattie. The pre nerf Phantom needed less skill than Soontir if you ask me. I have also managed to do not too shabby with dual IG against Soontir/Chiraneau. They can get so maneuvrable that it's difficult to arcdodge even if they move first. and a single block on Soontir is often enough to finish him off.

The pre nerf Phantom needed less skill than Soontir if you ask me.

I think this is as close to an objective gameplay truth as we can get

People asking for a fix, read the dang post.

On topic:

I still think the X-Wing's greatest strength is its ability to fly in formation with a bunch of dangerous, high PS aces. Unlike the TIE Swarm, X-Wings should always strike first.

The XXX opportunist list (Wes, Wedge, and Luke) is tremendous and doesn't fear turrets. Stress-Wes is excellent Phantom control. So for me the question is how can we maximize these high PS ships and abilities. I believe firmly in Opportunist, especially since a basic R2 synergizes so well.

Lone Wolf seems almost ideal, but it doesn't mesh with the formation flying my X-Wings rely on.

I just think that we have come to the very end of possible tactics and list optimization for such lists (unless we finally were given some goodies for the X) and there are better and more flexible alternatives.

The best XXX list i have seen was Wes/Wedge/Hobbie with Opportunist and some stress elements. I will edit it in if i can find it.

Edit: look i found it!

Bonus Wedgie (99)

Wes Janson — X-Wing 29

Veteran Instincts 1

Flechette Torpedoes 2

R3-A2 2

Munitions Failsafe 1

Ship Total: 35

Wedge Antilles — X-Wing 29

Opportunist 4

R2 Astromech 1

Ship Total: 34

"Hobbie" Klivian — X-Wing 25

R2-D6 1

Opportunist 4

Ship Total: 30

So in theory this hits like a truck and could joust the living crap out of other lists. But i have tried it, and trust me it runs out of options very fast. If your opponent manages to deny you a good joust or if you need to stress yourself, or if Wes dies at any point, you are done!

The pre nerf Phantom needed less skill than Soontir if you ask me.

I think this is as close to an objective gameplay truth as we can get

The pre nerf Phantom needed less skill than Soontir if you ask me.

I think this is as close to an objective gameplay truth as we can get

It was very objectively nigh unblockable and could basically always get a shot no matter what the opponent did as long as it moved after the opponent. Soontir needs much, much more care than that (as does the new Phantom)! So no this not just a subjective view, really not!

Well, playing Echo to his (Her?) full potential is quite the mental workout even pre-nerf. I'll give you pre-nerf Whisper, though.

I'm just going to add something I hope, but don't expect, will head off the next of these. The fact that well flown X-wings can win speaks to the role of skill in this game. X-wings aren't horrendous they just don't excel. Yes skill is important, yes a skilled flier can make x-wings work, yes the x could still use a bit of help.

I agree that skill still plays a central role. But then i can tell you what a really skilled pilot will do!

He will take an arc-dodging ship or flanker like the Interceptor, A-Wing or anything where he can really benefit from his superior maneuvering skills.

That is also the main problem i see with the X. No repositioning after movement is the bane of its high skill pilots. They are sitting ducks unlessyou massively invest in an already overpriced ship. I mean yes they move last, but if the enemy is clever, he can nearly always predict an X-Wing anyway.

I politely disagree here. It is not just skill in general, it is very important you have a feel for a certain type of ship. If you see an Interceptor or an A-wing as a better choice you might not be a better or more skilled player, you just have a better grasp at how to fly them then flying an X-wing. Other players have it the other way around. That doesn't make the X-wing bad or them less skilled. In X-wing you can't master all ships. A good thing too as it brings diversity to the table! If you bring to generaly evenly skilled players, but one has afinity for Interceptors and the other for X-wings, you will have an exiting match, with no certainty on the outcome.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but I also don't see it as a counter point. My main beef with xwings isn't that they lack a reposition ability. I prefer them without one. My beef is they are predictable and are forced to joust but the B-wing is a better jouster for the same points.

Xwings have a lot of cool tricks thanks to the named pilots, but the named pilots are the only x's I fly these days. I'm not running hobbie for the x, it's for the stress bot I can have backseat for him.

The X-wing works fine.

But only in a limited set of builds. An XXXZZZ list, for example, makes the best use of the x-wing's limited talents.

Unfortunately the number of lists where an x-wing of any variety is better than another ship is quite small. You need to build around an x-wing, but by doing that you tend to create an inherently weaker list than if you hadn't.

Damned if I know how to fix it though...

All this does is add numbers by adding extra Z-95s. By not taking any named pilots, you essentially are playing a numbers advantage, which is common through all ship builds and not just the X-wing. This is the reason no one bothers to take XXXXZ, you lose two Z's and have 12 less shields than the closest comparison, BBBBZ. I don't believe that just playing to the low PS generic rebel swarm meta is innovative and I am starting to seriously reconsider the second and third order effects that the Phantom nerf is having on the game as a whole, even after being a huge proponent of nerfing the Phantom in the exact way it functions now.

you can reconsider the nerf after we stop seeing nothing but two ship fatties at regionals

after all, Luke does considerably well against generics, especially against 2 dice zs and ties (it's really not fair, for them)

Maybe I'm just old, but I still remember a time when this game was nothing but swarm against swarm. Two ships or mini-swarm plus ace feels like an improvement to me. If the Phantom nerf causes us to regress to formation style jousting swarms, I'll be extremely disappointed.

That said, I don't actually expect this to happen. But two ship builds aren't the worst thing in the world, even fat turrets.

People asking for a fix, read the dang post.

On topic:

I still think the X-Wing's greatest strength is its ability to fly in formation with a bunch of dangerous, high PS aces. Unlike the TIE Swarm, X-Wings should always strike first.

The XXX opportunist list (Wes, Wedge, and Luke) is tremendous and doesn't fear turrets. Stress-Wes is excellent Phantom control. So for me the question is how can we maximize these high PS ships and abilities. I believe firmly in Opportunist, especially since a basic R2 synergizes so well.

Lone Wolf seems almost ideal, but it doesn't mesh with the formation flying my X-Wings rely on.

I was messing around with a XXXZ build that uses Wes+VI, Wedge+Opportunist, Biggs, and a Bandit. It can have some good effects on target, especially at range 1. It took 3rd or 4th in a casual tournament a couple weeks ago but suffered against lists that featured Autothrusters. In one game against my buddy, the game went to time in what spectators described as a pillow fight between a perpetually turtled AT/SD Soontir and the Wes/Wedge combination.

I'd think that Wes/Wedge would be almost ideal against a turtled Soontir, when they could get him in arc. That said, I quite like this list and may have to try it out myself. It gives extra bodies without giving up too much of a punch.

People asking for a fix, read the dang post.

On topic:

I still think the X-Wing's greatest strength is its ability to fly in formation with a bunch of dangerous, high PS aces. Unlike the TIE Swarm, X-Wings should always strike first.

The XXX opportunist list (Wes, Wedge, and Luke) is tremendous and doesn't fear turrets. Stress-Wes is excellent Phantom control. So for me the question is how can we maximize these high PS ships and abilities. I believe firmly in Opportunist, especially since a basic R2 synergizes so well.

Lone Wolf seems almost ideal, but it doesn't mesh with the formation flying my X-Wings rely on.

Sorry i disagree, since Frog squadron (if that tells you something it was a triple X-Wing list with Biggs, Luke, Wedge) won some major event during wave 2 or 3, we have seen barely any success to XXX lists. That's not a coincidence.

I just think that we have come to the very end of possible tactics and list optimization for such lists (unless we finally were given some goodies for the X) and there are better and more flexible alternatives.

The best XXX list i have seen was Wes/Wedge/Hobbie with Opportunist and some stress elements. I will edit it in if i can find it.

Edit: look i found it!

Bonus Wedgie (99)

Wes Janson — X-Wing 29

Veteran Instincts 1

Flechette Torpedoes 2

R3-A2 2

Munitions Failsafe 1

Ship Total: 35

Wedge Antilles — X-Wing 29

Opportunist 4

R2 Astromech 1

Ship Total: 34

"Hobbie" Klivian — X-Wing 25

R2-D6 1

Opportunist 4

Ship Total: 30

So in theory this hits like a truck and could joust the living crap out of other lists. But i have tried it, and trust me it runs out of options very fast. If your opponent manages to deny you a good joust or if you need to stress yourself, or if Wes dies at any point, you are done!

I don't actually disagree with you. The X does need a slight push, but this thread asked for strategies as we have them. I wanted to pursue that line of conversation and figured some classic lists would be worth mentioning.

On this list, why not trim the Flechette/Extra Munitions from Wes to upgrade Hobbie to Luke? I'd think the higher PS and better defense would be more useful than the single flechette, although I admit to not trying this as it stands.

Many of us already have tried our best to make it work.

I even used a list that involved a rule exploit i didnt read carefully enough and guess what? It was STILL bad!

i tried to break the game and even when it was broken, the 3x over cost was wayy too much.

Paul Heaver uses Biggs in recent regionals i hear, but still went 0-2.

If all else fails, just glue the model to a brick: you now have a great looking paperweight.

you can reconsider the nerf after we stop seeing nothing but two ship fatties at regionals

after all, Luke does considerably well against generics, especially against 2 dice zs and ties (it's really not fair, for them)

The Ontario Regionals with over 50 players had 8 Z-95 swarm in the finals and an X-Wing in the top 4...

Last night I had the privilege of watching Soontir Fel run for his life from Luke Skywalker.

Luke, in the X, managed to get the angle on Soontir, and follow him with 3 banks while Soontir blitzed around the edge of the map.

When you have two ships in combat, the one closer to the centre of the swirl of combat doesn't need mobility nearly as much as the ship farther from the middle, and being able to take short maneuvers enable the X-Wing to better dictate the swirl of battle.

Luke had Lone Wolf in this scenario, giving a good portion of the advantage of a Target Lock while focused.
Luke + Lone Wolf is also very likely to shrug off incoming damage, as you have both the (Eye) to (Squiggle) going and the (Blank) reroll.
Add a regenerative astromech (I really like R5-P9 on him, as if you wind up not needing your focus token for Offense or Defense, you'll still mitigate damage with it, but R2-D2 is a classic.)

The X-Wing uses survivability upgrades better than the Y and B, as it has 2 agility rather than 1, giving you a higher ceiling of mitigation, thereby ensuring your HP is likelier to survive more attacks, hit for hit.

I don't actually disagree with you. The X does need a slight push, but this thread asked for strategies as we have them. I wanted to pursue that line of conversation and figured some classic lists would be worth mentioning.

On this list, why not trim the Flechette/Extra Munitions from Wes to upgrade Hobbie to Luke? I'd think the higher PS and better defense would be more useful than the single flechette, although I admit to not trying this as it stands.

I believe the author of the list was a Youtuber. Michiel van Rooijen or something like that.

The reasoning behind Hobbie is simple. He can shed stress from Opportunist very easily when using his TL. The Glechette allows Wes to double stress the ships he cares to do so. Phantoms and Interceptors mainly.