This is not intended to be a discussion about trying to fix the ship with new upgrade ideas to pitch to FFG. Rather a discussion to formulate ideas about how we might be able to use the existing ship more efficiently with existing options.

I got to thinking about this as I was in a discussion with someone who asserted the X-wing fell flat on it's face against large turreted ships. This let me to a realization. Many people try to outgun a large turret, and the X-wing just won't win that fight, but how else can you go at it? I realized large turrets cost a lot thus limiting the number of ships on the enemy side. As such the turret should be the toughest attack headed your way. This means you can divert from using your focus tokens for offence to using them for defense and possibly get more use out of them. You can also maneuver to keep at range 3 for that 3rd die. 3 dice each with a 5/8 chance to grant you an evade is going to make dealing damage to you a much slower process. Add in Expert Handling and you can shake off a TL or Engine upgrade to help keep out of range 1-2. Use R7 to convert your TL into a defensive tool. Use a Flechett torp to keep them from getting a Focus or TL. You get the point... Your opponent brought one big gun to the fight and you have the power to neuter it with a wide range of defensive options.

That I think is the beauty of the X-wing. It's stats are pretty bland, but this allows it to be quite versitile. That 2 agility is pretty weak in a lot of situations, but facing a large turret can be easily used to your benefit with some smart flying. The HP on the X-wing is also pretty bland, but facing off against smaller more agile ships it will have the HP to last and with some good maneuvering some range 1 attacks will tear small fighters a new one.

I think the X-wing has the capacity to be a good ship, but requires some really smart flying and a strategy tailored to the opponent it is up against.

Hey i read the whole post and then i realized there is only one thing worth saying.

Sorry Chris for incoming off topic... But i think at this point the best pilots in the galaxy have already tried every single trick and tactic and they still can't make it worthwile.

Ready? Okay:

FFG, please, fix the **** X-Wing already!

If you are maneuvering to stay at range three of the attack with an X-wing, chances are that you are not facing the target. The X-wing is already an expensive ship and adding an Engine Upgrade will not help for two reasons in particular:

1. The Engine Upgrade will push you further forward and eat up and eat up one of your actions.

2. Expert Handling eats up the very important EPT slot and is only available on Pilots that cost 26+ points, these pilots generally have much better options for filling the slot with EPTs that can help them maximize their offensive output.

Large ship bases travel much further than any other ship, even while doing a one straight forward. This makes it hard for X-wings to keep them at further distances even while using the slowest possible maneuver. In my experiencea flying against large base ships, I try to predict where the large base will end its maneuver and plan on being in range one to capitalize on greater offensive output. The X-wing is better geared for offensive action, Wes is used to strip actions and set up shots, Wedge eliminates the possibility of an additional evade result from a die, Luke can take target locks a bit more freely because his ability is a hedged bet on not needing a defensive focus.

When I fight against a big turret, I am usually more concerned with the amount of escorts that are tagging along and what type of ship they are as well. Higher numbers of enemy ships in support of the big ship, even lowly Academy Pilots can overload individual X-wings with sustained fire and break down the anemic actions an X-wing squad has. Between five separate squads that featured two or more X-wings, The only big turret squad type that I really feared was Decimator + 3-4 TIEs. The problem was never the Decimator aside from it's single shot, but instead it was the multiple other shots that could be taken by the disposable TIEs as I attem to focus down the Decimator. If I focused on the TIEs first, there was a turret that had serious staying power in hull and action economy, floating around and firing at leisure while I tried to tangle with escorts who, by taking evades and jumping in for blocks, could do a better job negating any hits I could score ensuring another round of dedicated fire on something that was not the everlasting decimator. Meanwhile, vs. Fat Han, I gain an advantage in the limitations of his escorts. Z-95s have the same two actions as X-wings, same top speed, lack of repositioning, and lack of evade action so if one gets in the way or is trying to close with me, it is easier to wipe out and focus on the big guy.

The X-wing needs staying power and currently only 2 droids can offer effective staying power: R2-D2 and R5-P9. R2 can be placed on just about anyone to help them hang around for just a bit longer while generally R5 should just go on Luke as his ability is more conducive to triggering R5-P9 in the end phase. Those two droids is about as defensively focused as you should get with X-wings aside from taking the 25 point meat shield that is Biggs.

the problem with the x-wing is you can't make better use. The **** thing is a jouster, no repositioning abilities and only a decent dial, it relies entirely on its crappy stats to do anything worthwhile.

as I've said a few times, though, Luke (lw or pred + r2-d2 or r5-p9, Vi + r3-a2 + eu)/Tarn (r7)/Biggs (r4-d6) are all very useful and transcend the X-wing's horrendous profile enough so that they're not just free points for the opposing hlc/fat turret

Nice try, I appreciate what you are trying to do.

From experience here are a few typical things you will likely see in the matchup you suggest:

1. X Wings limited dial and action bar doesnt allow for any repositioning. Good luck staying at range 3 (and in arc) for more than 1 turn unless you are directly behind, chasing the fatty in a straight line - Fatty will always have you in arc. Staying consistently at range 3 is difficult without barrel roll, which X Wings dont have and can only get with an EPT.

2. Fatty has a similar, if not better, selection of movement on his dial as your X Wing and is faster due to his larger base. He can outpace you. He will likely stick to the edges of the board to have a straight run rather than get tangled in the asteroids. He has to turn at the corners of the board and you will most likely cut the corners in order to stay in range, undermining your ability to dictate the range of the engagement.

3. With poor action economy on the X Wing, R7 is not the best droid to take with it. if you are saving your target lock to take advantage of R7, you will not have any way to modify your red dice. Your offensive potential will decrease. Fatty will last longer, getting more shots at you.

4. Fatty has gunner and will likely focus to modify his dice - you use your target lock with R7 to make him miss his first shot. Even if he used his focus on the first shot, fatty simply shoots again with gunner. You don't have any way of modifying dice now your target lock is spent.

Fatty will have friends, possibly another gunner crewed Fatty, possibly a few small based ships. R7 drastically reduces its effectiveness when there are several different ships shooting at your X wing. Only 1 ship can be the one you target locked meaning you are rolling unmodified dice against everything else. R7 is great on Tarn because of his ability. Its not so great on stuff that doesn't generate instant target locks.

Named X Wings are better but their cost can be prohibitive. Luke w/ Lone Wolf, R2-D2 or R5-P9 and Shield upgrade is probably the most durable X Wing against a single attack source you are going to find; you can also fit 3 rookies in the list with him. Biggs will help hoover up hits and dissipate them somewhat with the right upgrades, but wont contribute too much to the offensive battle as his focus will largely be used for defense until he dies. Tarn similarly can be hard to put down against a single attacker but will die only slightly more slowly than a normal X Wing against the mini swarm escorting Fatty. Wedge, sadly, doesn't add anything against decimators and Wes is pretty weaksauce against gunner/predator turrets.

You might wear Fatty down. It happens. I have beaten fat turret lists with 4 Rookie builds. But even playing to the best of the strengths the X Wing offers, its unreasonably hard compared to using other ships.

Edit: ****! Ninja'd. Too tired to write quickly. Where's the coffee?

I'm just going to add something I hope, but don't expect, will head off the next of these. The fact that well flown X-wings can win speaks to the role of skill in this game. X-wings aren't horrendous they just don't excel. Yes skill is important, yes a skilled flier can make x-wings work, yes the x could still use a bit of help.

If you are maneuvering to stay at range three of the attack with an X-wing, chances are that you are not facing the target. The X-wing is already an expensive ship and adding an Engine Upgrade will not help for two reasons in particular:

1. The Engine Upgrade will push you further forward and eat up and eat up one of your actions.

2. Expert Handling eats up the very important EPT slot and is only available on Pilots that cost 26+ points, these pilots generally have much better options for filling the slot with EPTs that can help them maximize their offensive output.

Large ship bases travel much further than any other ship, even while doing a one straight forward. This makes it hard for X-wings to keep them at further distances even while using the slowest possible maneuver. In my experiencea flying against large base ships, I try to predict where the large base will end its maneuver and plan on being in range one to capitalize on greater offensive output. The X-wing is better geared for offensive action, Wes is used to strip actions and set up shots, Wedge eliminates the possibility of an additional evade result from a die, Luke can take target locks a bit more freely because his ability is a hedged bet on not needing a defensive focus.

When I fight against a big turret, I am usually more concerned with the amount of escorts that are tagging along and what type of ship they are as well. Higher numbers of enemy ships in support of the big ship, even lowly Academy Pilots can overload individual X-wings with sustained fire and break down the anemic actions an X-wing squad has. Between five separate squads that featured two or more X-wings, The only big turret squad type that I really feared was Decimator + 3-4 TIEs. The problem was never the Decimator aside from it's single shot, but instead it was the multiple other shots that could be taken by the disposable TIEs as I attem to focus down the Decimator. If I focused on the TIEs first, there was a turret that had serious staying power in hull and action economy, floating around and firing at leisure while I tried to tangle with escorts who, by taking evades and jumping in for blocks, could do a better job negating any hits I could score ensuring another round of dedicated fire on something that was not the everlasting decimator. Meanwhile, vs. Fat Han, I gain an advantage in the limitations of his escorts. Z-95s have the same two actions as X-wings, same top speed, lack of repositioning, and lack of evade action so if one gets in the way or is trying to close with me, it is easier to wipe out and focus on the big guy.

The X-wing needs staying power and currently only 2 droids can offer effective staying power: R2-D2 and R5-P9. R2 can be placed on just about anyone to help them hang around for just a bit longer while generally R5 should just go on Luke as his ability is more conducive to triggering R5-P9 in the end phase. Those two droids is about as defensively focused as you should get with X-wings aside from taking the 25 point meat shield that is Biggs.

A large base can cover a lot of ground, but it does have a blind spot. Also it can only pursue one ship at a time. Fan out and make it chase you down. A lot of people hyper focus on offense and that simply does not work with the X-wing. You have recent attack, but you have to know when to make use of that 2 agility otherwise you are only capitalizing on half your stats. Yes the Decimator can have quite a few Ties to flank you with, but remember they only get 2 attack so I am not as concerned about their damage as I am about that decimator. If you can force the decimator to shoot first then you can use the focus on the X-wing he targets for defense and then divert the attention of your other X-wings towards offense either against the decimator or against the ties. Personally I would engage the ties first to cut down on the number of attacks comming my way. The fewer attacks come your way the more effective using focus tokens defensively becomes. The strength here is that you have the option to use your focus and TL either offensively or defensively and to decent effect either way. Also bear in mind the more Ties they bring the more naked that decimator is going to be.

Nice try, I appreciate what you are trying to do.

From experience here are a few typical things you will likely see in the matchup you suggest:

1. X Wings limited dial and action bar doesnt allow for any repositioning. Good luck staying at range 3 (and in arc) for more than 1 turn unless you are directly behind, chasing the fatty in a straight line - Fatty will always have you in arc. Staying consistently at range 3 is difficult without barrel roll, which X Wings dont have and can only get with an EPT.

2. Fatty has a similar, if not better, selection of movement on his dial as your X Wing and is faster due to his larger base. He can outpace you. He will likely stick to the edges of the board to have a straight run rather than get tangled in the asteroids. He has to turn at the corners of the board and you will most likely cut the corners in order to stay in range, undermining your ability to dictate the range of the engagement.

3. With poor action economy on the X Wing, R7 is not the best droid to take with it. if you are saving your target lock to take advantage of R7, you will not have any way to modify your red dice. Your offensive potential will decrease. Fatty will last longer, getting more shots at you.

4. Fatty has gunner and will likely focus to modify his dice - you use your target lock with R7 to make him miss his first shot. Even if he used his focus on the first shot, fatty simply shoots again with gunner. You don't have any way of modifying dice now your target lock is spent.

Fatty will have friends, possibly another gunner crewed Fatty, possibly a few small based ships. R7 drastically reduces its effectiveness when there are several different ships shooting at your X wing. Only 1 ship can be the one you target locked meaning you are rolling unmodified dice against everything else. R7 is great on Tarn because of his ability. Its not so great on stuff that doesn't generate instant target locks.

Named X Wings are better but their cost can be prohibitive. Luke w/ Lone Wolf, R2-D2 or R5-P9 and Shield upgrade is probably the most durable X Wing against a single attack source you are going to find; you can also fit 3 rookies in the list with him. Biggs will help hoover up hits and dissipate them somewhat with the right upgrades, but wont contribute too much to the offensive battle as his focus will largely be used for defense until he dies. Tarn similarly can be hard to put down against a single attacker but will die only slightly more slowly than a normal X Wing against the mini swarm escorting Fatty. Wedge, sadly, doesn't add anything against decimators and Wes is pretty weaksauce against gunner/predator turrets.

You might wear Fatty down. It happens. I have beaten fat turret lists with 4 Rookie builds. But even playing to the best of the strengths the X Wing offers, its unreasonably hard compared to using other ships.

Edit: ****! Ninja'd. Too tired to write quickly. Where's the coffee?

You don't try to outrun him. You out handle him. The large base can cover a lot of ground but also makes taking tight turns a bit more difficult. You fan out and simply try to take out his escorts first. If he hugs the edge of the board then hang out in the middle. Make him pursue you don't pursue him. If he refuses then pick off his escorts. You never play the match on your opponent's terms.

I'm not sure what you mean by blind spot on a turreted ship. If it's pursuing you, then you're most likely are not facing it and therefore, not shooting at it with close to 1/3rd of your squad.I can assure you, as someone who flew almost* nothing but X-wings until recently, that capitalizing on their offensive capabilities is playing to the only advantage they have.

*sometimes the squad would be XXXZ, XXBZ, XBBZ, or XBBB but mostly it was XXX. Each iteration used different combinations of pilots, upgrades, droids, EPTs, etc.

Post Wave 4 I spent 9 months+ of trying to figure out how exactly to make an X-wing squad viable again, versus any threat in a tournament most likely filled with fat turrets and hypermobile phantoms. I want the X-wing to be relevant more than anything else in this game and, from my experience, can safely assert that what you are suggesting is flat out wrong.

I hope this didn't sound offensive or condescending to you as it is not my intention.

Edit: spelling

I'm not sure what you mean by blind spot on a turreted ship. If it's pursuing you, then you're most likely are not facing it and therefore, not shooting at it with close to 1/3rd of your squad.I can assure you, as someone who flew almost* nothing but X-wings until recently, that capitalizing on their offensive capabilities is playing to the only advantage they have.

*sometimes the squad would be XXXZ, XXBZ, XBBZ, or XBBB but mostly it was XXX. Each iteration used different combinations of pilots, upgrades, droids, EPTs, etc.

Post Wave 4 I spent 9 months+ of trying to figure out how exactly to make an X-wing squad viable again, versus any threat in a tournament most likely filled with fat turrets and hypermobile phantoms. I want the X-wing to be relevant more than anything else in this game and, from my experience, can safely assert that what you are suggesting is flat out wrong.

I hope this didn't sound offensive or condescending to you as it is not my intention.

Edit: spelling

B-wings are nice, but diverting your focus to use on defense is not a viable option on them as it still leaves them highly likely to get no evades due to their low agility. However 2-3 defense die can make an effective use of it if you are expecting a fairly hard hit coming your way. You aren't likely to miss with fletchett torpedoes so you should be able to get some stress tokens out to screw with the turret's movement/abilities.

just fix it.

if you play with it enough at competitive level against competitive ships youre going to find it is:

maneuverable enough

doesn't live long enough

doesn't even live long enough for whatever effing gimmick or "customization" you wanted to give it to make a difference

astromechs are good. jousting efficiency is important

JUST FIX IT.

The best suggestion I heard and I'm sorry I couldn't find the old thread to credit the visionary behind it, was to play b wings, but keep an x wing off to the side and play with it/make space ship noises while your opponent is busy.

I'm not sure what you mean by blind spot on a turreted ship....

A spot located behind the large based ship which is difficult for it to maneuver around to. Because a large base ship has a base twice the length and width of a small ship a large ship's tightest turn, the 1 speed sharp turn, is not as sharp a turn as with small ships. If you can stress the ship to keep it from performing a K-tutn then it will have a very difficult time circling back to pursue anything behind it. It will take even longer if it tries to clear the stress with a green maneuver. So if it tries to clear the stress it slows down it's ability to circle around and if not it won't get it's actions. Also you need only really keep at range 2 or further with the preference being range 3. Staying out of range 1 is the main goal. At range 2-3 things favor you a bit. If you are at range 3 you get to roll 3 defence dice with a focus while they only get to roll 2. They will be using their focus on their attack so their defence roll will be unmodified. If you can get a TL you can spend it to modify your attack. At range 2 you get your normal rolls which, with the focus should get you 1-2 evades on average. While they get their 1 with no focus which will most frequently give them no evades. Do you really need to try and both Focus and TL to hit a ship with such low agility? I think not...

B-wings are nice, but diverting your focus to use on defense is not a viable option on them as it still leaves them highly likely to get no evades due to their low agility. However 2-3 defense die can make an effective use of it if you are expecting a fairly hard hit coming your way. You aren't likely to miss with fletchett torpedoes so you should be able to get some stress tokens out to screw with the turret's movement/abilities.

Chris,

I don't want to be cruel so please take this in the friendly vein it is intended. The things you are saying, are basic flight tactics, but the large ship example you seem to have in your head is a shuttle. Possibly one of the IG ships. Everything else will have a shot on you while you hang back there. That's what rear arcs and turrets do.

When I fly my large turrets, the only time I care what side you are is if Oicunn is lining up a ram, or you have autothrusters. Xwings can't take Autothrusters.

We all know that you can fly well and take advantage of position. However every ship can do that. Talking a perfect game for the X-wings doesn't mean they aren't slightly overcosted in this meta.

Cool. Another fix the X topic.

Let's throw this in.

X-Wing Engine Boosters

Modification, X-Wing only

"Your action bar gains the barrel roll action"

0 Points

Not every ship fits everyone. Many people who complain about the X-wing to me are people who excel at flying Interceptors, A-wings, etc. For me it is the other way around.

Forget generics. The X-wing is the ship of the Rebel heroes working together saving the day. And I can't stress enough the together part. You fly X-wings as a squad, boosting and helping each other. Not three seperate ships with three attack. Stay with your wingmen!

Yes the X-wing has not the best durability, that is why you have to fly aggressively.

High pilot skill rules. Use, for instance Wes Janson and then two other pilots who take Opportunist.

The higher the PS the better, two high PS pilots with four dice for attack, no defence tokens at the defender.

The X -wing is fun, just don't try to fly it as if it is an Interceptor or a B-wing, because it isn't, it's an X!

X-Wings don't need help against lots of opponents/builds. Its just the skilled or halfway decent players/builds they fall limp on.

I'm just going to add something I hope, but don't expect, will head off the next of these. The fact that well flown X-wings can win speaks to the role of skill in this game. X-wings aren't horrendous they just don't excel. Yes skill is important, yes a skilled flier can make x-wings work, yes the x could still use a bit of help.

I agree that skill still plays a central role. But then i can tell you what a really skilled pilot will do!

He will take an arc-dodging ship or flanker like the Interceptor, A-Wing or anything where he can really benefit from his superior maneuvering skills.

That is also the main problem i see with the X. No repositioning after movement is the bane of its high skill pilots. They are sitting ducks unlessyou massively invest in an already overpriced ship. I mean yes they move last, but if the enemy is clever, he can nearly always predict an X-Wing anyway.

ForceM, I agree. The X wing isn't going to do much subtle stuff. It's a in your face jouster. If the situation is one where that can work, then the X can win. The good flying comes in setting that up. Personally I like to have a Y wing along with any X's I'm flying. When you reduce your oponents movement choices to 1 straight or 1 straight or 1 straight, it's a lot easier to compensate for the lack of repositioning.

For me I hope the fix involves synergy between x's and not a tacked on move change. Or some way to manage the stress of K turning so much. (More than the R2 does already that is.)

This week I plan to run an XXXZ list centered on shooting first. Wedge-swarm tactics, Cracken-swarm tactics and homing missile, 2 rooks.

The plan is to set up the first round of shooting and have all my ships hit at PS 8 or better. Take out their main threat before it ever gets a shot off. Then the clean-up should not be too much of a problem.

For sure not a tourney list as it still has a lot of weaknesses, but should be fun for casual play, and decent against scum in particular as they don't have that much arc dodging, or really fat ships.

Honestly whatever they actually decide for a "Tune up" , "Fix" "Buff" whatever you want to call it, I sure as hell hope it costs ZERO points and doesn't use the droid slot.

This week I plan to run an XXXZ list centered on shooting first. Wedge-swarm tactics, Cracken-swarm tactics and homing missile, 2 rooks.

The plan is to set up the first round of shooting and have all my ships hit at PS 8 or better. Take out their main threat before it ever gets a shot off. Then the clean-up should not be too much of a problem.

For sure not a tourney list as it still has a lot of weaknesses, but should be fun for casual play, and decent against scum in particular as they don't have that much arc dodging, or really fat ships.

If you've got the Transport and R2-D6, you might be better off upgrading a rook to a red with D6 + Swarm. I've found Homing Missiles to be lackluster for their cost. But if you want a secondary weapon in my experiences you're better off with an Assault Missle or Ion Torpedo for 5pts. You also have the points space for the option to run 3x Flechettes on your X's.

good luck with you match-ups. but more importantly have fun.

I'm just going to add something I hope, but don't expect, will head off the next of these. The fact that well flown X-wings can win speaks to the role of skill in this game. X-wings aren't horrendous they just don't excel. Yes skill is important, yes a skilled flier can make x-wings work, yes the x could still use a bit of help.

I agree that skill still plays a central role. But then i can tell you what a really skilled pilot will do!

He will take an arc-dodging ship or flanker like the Interceptor, A-Wing or anything where he can really benefit from his superior maneuvering skills.

That is also the main problem i see with the X. No repositioning after movement is the bane of its high skill pilots. They are sitting ducks unlessyou massively invest in an already overpriced ship. I mean yes they move last, but if the enemy is clever, he can nearly always predict an X-Wing anyway.

The X-wing works fine.

But only in a limited set of builds. An XXXZZZ list, for example, makes the best use of the x-wing's limited talents.

Unfortunately the number of lists where an x-wing of any variety is better than another ship is quite small. You need to build around an x-wing, but by doing that you tend to create an inherently weaker list than if you hadn't.

Damned if I know how to fix it though...

People asking for a fix, read the dang post.

On topic:

I still think the X-Wing's greatest strength is its ability to fly in formation with a bunch of dangerous, high PS aces. Unlike the TIE Swarm, X-Wings should always strike first.

The XXX opportunist list (Wes, Wedge, and Luke) is tremendous and doesn't fear turrets. Stress-Wes is excellent Phantom control. So for me the question is how can we maximize these high PS ships and abilities. I believe firmly in Opportunist, especially since a basic R2 synergizes so well.

Lone Wolf seems almost ideal, but it doesn't mesh with the formation flying my X-Wings rely on.

The X-wing works fine.

But only in a limited set of builds. An XXXZZZ list, for example, makes the best use of the x-wing's limited talents.

Unfortunately the number of lists where an x-wing of any variety is better than another ship is quite small. You need to build around an x-wing, but by doing that you tend to create an inherently weaker list than if you hadn't.

Damned if I know how to fix it though...

All this does is add numbers by adding extra Z-95s. By not taking any named pilots, you essentially are playing a numbers advantage, which is common through all ship builds and not just the X-wing. This is the reason no one bothers to take XXXXZ, you lose two Z's and have 12 less shields than the closest comparison, BBBBZ. I don't believe that just playing to the low PS generic rebel swarm meta is innovative and I am starting to seriously reconsider the second and third order effects that the Phantom nerf is having on the game as a whole, even after being a huge proponent of nerfing the Phantom in the exact way it functions now.