my attempt for a rebuild as follows:

and giving credit to the preposters i´ll take some of your ideas up here:

In general: 3 Attack / 3 Agility / 3 Hull / 4 Shields

Delta Squadron Pilot Onyx Squadron Pilot Colonel Vessery Rexler Brath

PS 3 31 Points PS 5 33 Points PS 6 35 Points PS 8 37 Points

Cannon / Missles Cannon / Missles / EPT Cannon / Missles / EPT Cannon / Missles / EPT

New Upgrade Cards

ND9 Hyperdrive Motivator

Tie Defender Only. Title

Immediately after you reveal a maneuver, if the revealed maneuver is a green maneuver, you may perform a free Boost or Barrel Roll action before executing the maneuver.

1 Point

Cannon Fire-Link

Tie Defender Only

Missle 0 Points

If you equip a cannon upgrade, its squad point cost is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0)

After you perform a primary weapon attack, you may immediately perform an attack with an equipped secondary cannon weapon which says "Then cancel all dice results."

(Ion, Flachette and any future type cannon doing 1 damage and something special,)

The Purpose here is to link those cannons from the lore but still improving cost problems with the defender and the big guns.

Twin ion Engine

Modification. TIE only 1 Point

You may treat all bank maneuvers as green maneuvers

So thats my 5 cents but i think it would be kind of fun

I doubt the thrust vectoring was controlled by computer or came standard with the ability too switch between manual and computer controled. Also dont forget it is pretty likly a good chunk of the IMP pilots are people that probably should have been jedi or at least looked at by Jedi too see if they will be trained to be Jedi IF the Jedi org was still around like it was during the Republic. The IMP pilots are made up of the top 10% of the IMP NAVY fighter core. They are ether highy skilled, very lucky, or force sensitive, I would say without a doubt sensitive for the majority.

The TIE Interceptor is the Empires best dogfighter as was stated in a fairly recent source book. Complete Vehicles. There many other things other than dogfighting aircraft or star fighters do. I am sure the Defender is one of the best overall fight craft the IMPs have BUT when it comes to dogfighting the Interceptor is better.

Why do you doubt it? Think of the technology level in Star Wars - everything has computer support. Cybernetic limbs are common, artificial intelligences have been around forever, even Luke's binoculars and most of the other stuff on backwater Tatooine had integrated computers. Lacking something akin to modern fly-by-wire would greatly increase the pilot's workload, pushing his focus on managing the craft itself, and pulling his attention from the fight itself, as well as the severe drawback of a greatly reduced reaction time. And yet you're expecting me to believe your opinion that the Interceptor - the most advanced mass-produced Imperial front-line starfighter - wouldn't have a computer-controlled flight system?

As far as the majority of pilots being Force-Sensitive...no. Force-sensitives were very rare under governments that tolerated them. Under the Empire, however, one of two things happened - either the Force-sensitive was killed due to the potential threat to the Emperor's power, or was trained to be part of the Inquisitorius, Emperor's Hand, Royal Guard, or similar organization. Imperial Military Academies in particular were screened for Force-sensitives...so the likelihood of more than a handful slipping through the gaps and becoming TIE pilots is essentially null.

Does Star Wars: Complete Vehicles even acknowledge the existence of the TIE Defender? If not, then how can it be a reliable source when comparing the dogfighting capabilities of the two? Also, actually think what constitutes a good dogfighter rather than blindly accepting what a single source says - in real life, a good dogfighting aircraft combines low wing loading, good thrust-to-weight ratio, turning radius, and other factors...whereas in space, the only factors that matter are maximum speed, acceleration, turning radius, and ability to put the craft through maneuvers unattainable by most others (what is considered supermaneuverability in modern aircraft), with weaponry and durability as secondary concerns. The TIE Defender exceeds the TIE Interceptor in every category - so how can the Interceptor be the superior dogfighter overall when it is inferior in every category?

I doubt it has computer controlled thrust vectoring, at least dumped together with the other systems the computer helps manage, because it says its manually controlled, I didn't say the entire system was manually controlled. For someone that is force sensitive not having everything grouped together or even automated would matter, hence why Anakin was able to podrace and win / survive while lots of aliens with the capability to pilot craft without computer assisted avionics, or at the least ones that are more advanced than we have now, and be expected to have a fair chance of surviving.

What you said about force sensitives isn't true. Every named IMP pilot just about in the lore is force sensitive. Just because someone is a force sensitive doesn't mean they are someone that is capable of using the force "actively." It is a faith based power for the most part. Take Solo for example, he is a force sensitive, he was in the GE btw, yet he could never be a Jedi or any other type of force user because he doesn't believe in that sort of thing even though he unknowingly uses the force when he piloting craft, while hes in the zone at least. The only force sensitives that were hunted and killed were the ones that knew they had the ability to do special things, they might not even know what the force is, like Ewoks. Ewoks have force users time but they think its just magic.

SWCV doesn't mention the TIE Defender but that doesn't make it a unreliable source, if that were the case every book written for SW lore would be unreliable just because no one yet has a profile for every ship in SW, nor vehicle, nor weapon and characters. The book does have EU craft in it like the TIE Scout, or at-least talks about the TIE Scout, so its not like this book is movie exclusive. Other sources say that the Interceptor can do rolls and such that most other craft can't and outperformed nearly every other craft in Dogfights. This doesn't contradict the statement in SWCV nor lore written for the Defender because the Defender has a fatal weakness that is most easily exploited in dogfights by the TIE Avenger, A-Wings, and TIE Interceptors, Its its huge blind spot 6 o'clock high. Thats not saying other craft can't but it was usually the most maneuverable craft that did exploit this weakness. Granted the A-wing probably is relying on missiles to finish off the unsuspecting TIE Defender, its much easier for the other two to finish of the Defender because of the weapons they are normally carrying. Even going head to head Avenger or Interceptor vs Defender would be a super quick engagement because of the cannons. Any other fighter it would probably be suicide going head to head with a Defender.

Actually what makes a fighter craft the best fighter craft overall is the pilot, that goes for real life as well. The Interceptor has many features that make it a better dogfigher. Since it is able to manipulate its thrust vectoring for its ion projectors independently it is easier to do delayed maneuvers and or misleading maneuvers that can put the enemy in positions they don't want to be in, which is in front of the Interceptor. Unlike the Defender the Interceptor, as well as the Avenger, are much smaller targets, especially when comparing the craft with their shields turned on. Its harder to spot and harder to hit compared to the Defender, depending on the circumstances but usually its size will betray it. The Interceptor doesn't suffer from the design flaws that plaque the Defender, its blind-spots. It may actually have more than just one, but this was one of the reasons while Stele choose to use the Avenger over the Defender when he joined the 181st. Like the TIE/LN the TIE Interceptor can easily be fitted with additional equipment and weapons. Most Interceptors use the same reactor a TIE Avenger uses. Interceptors can easily be mounted with multipurpose warhead launcher, hyperdrive, additional advanced ecm and eccm equipment, even additional LASER or blaster weapons or other pieces of hardware required for a mission. Elite TIE Interceptor squadrons were doing this all the time, Avenger Squadron so far has the most nonstandard altered Interceptors. This doesn't seem to be the case with Defenders. They can be modified, all craft can, but it appears to not be as easy as it is for Fighters and Interceptors.

I mentioned it before but just as an example of the accumulation of the things I have mentioned... Baron Fel killed the squadron leader and ace of Red Star squadron. The only thing it appears Fel has ever changed with his Interceptor is the avionics / pilot interface. Red Star 1 was a heavily modified TIE Defender.

I still think there was a mess up at the factory. Someone swapped the attack value between the Phantom and the Defender. The Phantom is still a great ship with 3 attack dice, but it was absurd with 4. The Defender is a solid ship with 3 attack die (though might cost a little too much), but would be perfect with 4 attack dice.

That and make 2 hard turn white.

The Interceptor doesn't suffer from the design flaws that plaque the Defender, its blind-spots.

I don't get this at all. Its a bunch of EU rubbish that someone made up to give the Defender a flaw.

Aren't those what sensors are for? The majority of the time you are playing Tie Fighter you are looking at your sensor bubbles to see where enemy craft are located at. You can't see anything out the back in any Tie Fighter anyway. By that logic the standard Tie would have the worst "blind spots"

The Interceptor doesn't suffer from the design flaws that plaque the Defender, its blind-spots.

I don't get this at all. Its a bunch of EU rubbish that someone made up to give the Defender a flaw.

Aren't those what sensors are for? The majority of the time you are playing Tie Fighter you are looking at your sensor bubbles to see where enemy craft are located at. You can't see anything out the back in any Tie Fighter anyway. By that logic the standard Tie would have the worst "blind spots"

Just ignore it, it doesn't know what it's talking about, and likely never will.

But no one can Star Wars like BKL.

I doubt it has computer controlled thrust vectoring, at least dumped together with the other systems the computer helps manage, because it says its manually controlled, I didn't say the entire system was manually controlled. For someone that is force sensitive not having everything grouped together or even automated would matter, hence why Anakin was able to podrace and win / survive while lots of aliens with the capability to pilot craft without computer assisted avionics, or at the least ones that are more advanced than we have now, and be expected to have a fair chance of surviving.

What you said about force sensitives isn't true. Every named IMP pilot just about in the lore is force sensitive. Just because someone is a force sensitive doesn't mean they are someone that is capable of using the force "actively." It is a faith based power for the most part. Take Solo for example, he is a force sensitive, he was in the GE btw, yet he could never be a Jedi or any other type of force user because he doesn't believe in that sort of thing even though he unknowingly uses the force when he piloting craft, while hes in the zone at least. The only force sensitives that were hunted and killed were the ones that knew they had the ability to do special things, they might not even know what the force is, like Ewoks. Ewoks have force users time but they think its just magic.

SWCV doesn't mention the TIE Defender but that doesn't make it a unreliable source, if that were the case every book written for SW lore would be unreliable just because no one yet has a profile for every ship in SW, nor vehicle, nor weapon and characters. The book does have EU craft in it like the TIE Scout, or at-least talks about the TIE Scout, so its not like this book is movie exclusive. Other sources say that the Interceptor can do rolls and such that most other craft can't and outperformed nearly every other craft in Dogfights. This doesn't contradict the statement in SWCV nor lore written for the Defender because the Defender has a fatal weakness that is most easily exploited in dogfights by the TIE Avenger, A-Wings, and TIE Interceptors, Its its huge blind spot 6 o'clock high. Thats not saying other craft can't but it was usually the most maneuverable craft that did exploit this weakness. Granted the A-wing probably is relying on missiles to finish off the unsuspecting TIE Defender, its much easier for the other two to finish of the Defender because of the weapons they are normally carrying. Even going head to head Avenger or Interceptor vs Defender would be a super quick engagement because of the cannons. Any other fighter it would probably be suicide going head to head with a Defender.

Actually what makes a fighter craft the best fighter craft overall is the pilot, that goes for real life as well. The Interceptor has many features that make it a better dogfigher. Since it is able to manipulate its thrust vectoring for its ion projectors independently it is easier to do delayed maneuvers and or misleading maneuvers that can put the enemy in positions they don't want to be in, which is in front of the Interceptor. Unlike the Defender the Interceptor, as well as the Avenger, are much smaller targets, especially when comparing the craft with their shields turned on. Its harder to spot and harder to hit compared to the Defender, depending on the circumstances but usually its size will betray it. The Interceptor doesn't suffer from the design flaws that plaque the Defender, its blind-spots. It may actually have more than just one, but this was one of the reasons while Stele choose to use the Avenger over the Defender when he joined the 181st. Like the TIE/LN the TIE Interceptor can easily be fitted with additional equipment and weapons. Most Interceptors use the same reactor a TIE Avenger uses. Interceptors can easily be mounted with multipurpose warhead launcher, hyperdrive, additional advanced ecm and eccm equipment, even additional LASER or blaster weapons or other pieces of hardware required for a mission. Elite TIE Interceptor squadrons were doing this all the time, Avenger Squadron so far has the most nonstandard altered Interceptors. This doesn't seem to be the case with Defenders. They can be modified, all craft can, but it appears to not be as easy as it is for Fighters and Interceptors.

I mentioned it before but just as an example of the accumulation of the things I have mentioned... Baron Fel killed the squadron leader and ace of Red Star squadron. The only thing it appears Fel has ever changed with his Interceptor is the avionics / pilot interface. Red Star 1 was a heavily modified TIE Defender.

As I said before, it says that it can be manually controlled. That doesn't mean that it must.

Also, I didn't say that it's an unreliable source, I said that it's an unreliable source for comparing which of the two is the superior craft. There's a pretty big difference...and it's impossible to compare two things with a source that completely omits one.

Additionally, there's no reason to modify the Defender when the factory stock version is better than any post-production modifications would be - it was designed to be as best as possible, no matter the cost. You seem to think that this would be a setback, when it is in fact a benefit.

You seem to forget the targeting systems all ships had in the video games - visual blind spots are irrelevant when everyone has full 360^o sensors. Also, being a slightly larger target and being easier to spot isn't going to help someone against a Defender when the Defender is more maneuverable. Put an F-16 against an F-22 in a dogfight with equal pilots, and the size difference won't matter at all.

Here is an archived version of the starwars.com databank page on the TIE Defender:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100328055302/http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tiedefender/index.html

From that page: "A triple array of maneuvering jets on the branching tri-wing assembly allows the TIE defender to tumble through seemingly impossible dives and jinks, outshining the impressive TIE interceptor in sheer agility."

I don't see any reason why I should continue to revisit the same discussion when you are quite plainly wrong about the Interceptor being better than the Defender.

I doubt the thrust vectoring was controlled by computer or came standard with the ability too switch between manual and computer controled. Also dont forget it is pretty likly a good chunk of the IMP pilots are people that probably should have been jedi or at least looked at by Jedi too see if they will be trained to be Jedi IF the Jedi org was still around like it was during the Republic. The IMP pilots are made up of the top 10% of the IMP NAVY fighter core. They are ether highy skilled, very lucky, or force sensitive, I would say without a doubt sensitive for the majority.

The TIE Interceptor is the Empires best dogfighter as was stated in a fairly recent source book. Complete Vehicles. There many other things other than dogfighting aircraft or star fighters do. I am sure the Defender is one of the best overall fight craft the IMPs have BUT when it comes to dogfighting the Interceptor is better.

Why do you doubt it? Think of the technology level in Star Wars - everything has computer support. Cybernetic limbs are common, artificial intelligences have been around forever, even Luke's binoculars and most of the other stuff on backwater Tatooine had integrated computers. Lacking something akin to modern fly-by-wire would greatly increase the pilot's workload, pushing his focus on managing the craft itself, and pulling his attention from the fight itself, as well as the severe drawback of a greatly reduced reaction time. And yet you're expecting me to believe your opinion that the Interceptor - the most advanced mass-produced Imperial front-line starfighter - wouldn't have a computer-controlled flight system?

As far as the majority of pilots being Force-Sensitive...no. Force-sensitives were very rare under governments that tolerated them. Under the Empire, however, one of two things happened - either the Force-sensitive was killed due to the potential threat to the Emperor's power, or was trained to be part of the Inquisitorius, Emperor's Hand, Royal Guard, or similar organization. Imperial Military Academies in particular were screened for Force-sensitives...so the likelihood of more than a handful slipping through the gaps and becoming TIE pilots is essentially null.

Does Star Wars: Complete Vehicles even acknowledge the existence of the TIE Defender? If not, then how can it be a reliable source when comparing the dogfighting capabilities of the two? Also, actually think what constitutes a good dogfighter rather than blindly accepting what a single source says - in real life, a good dogfighting aircraft combines low wing loading, good thrust-to-weight ratio, turning radius, and other factors...whereas in space, the only factors that matter are maximum speed, acceleration, turning radius, and ability to put the craft through maneuvers unattainable by most others (what is considered supermaneuverability in modern aircraft), with weaponry and durability as secondary concerns. The TIE Defender exceeds the TIE Interceptor in every category - so how can the Interceptor be the superior dogfighter overall when it is inferior in every category?

I doubt it has computer controlled thrust vectoring, at least dumped together with the other systems the computer helps manage, because it says its manually controlled, I didn't say the entire system was manually controlled. For someone that is force sensitive not having everything grouped together or even automated would matter, hence why Anakin was able to podrace and win / survive while lots of aliens with the capability to pilot craft without computer assisted avionics, or at the least ones that are more advanced than we have now, and be expected to have a fair chance of surviving.

What you said about force sensitives isn't true. Every named IMP pilot just about in the lore is force sensitive. Just because someone is a force sensitive doesn't mean they are someone that is capable of using the force "actively." It is a faith based power for the most part. Take Solo for example, he is a force sensitive, he was in the GE btw, yet he could never be a Jedi or any other type of force user because he doesn't believe in that sort of thing even though he unknowingly uses the force when he piloting craft, while hes in the zone at least. The only force sensitives that were hunted and killed were the ones that knew they had the ability to do special things, they might not even know what the force is, like Ewoks. Ewoks have force users time but they think its just magic.

SWCV doesn't mention the TIE Defender but that doesn't make it a unreliable source, if that were the case every book written for SW lore would be unreliable just because no one yet has a profile for every ship in SW, nor vehicle, nor weapon and characters. The book does have EU craft in it like the TIE Scout, or at-least talks about the TIE Scout, so its not like this book is movie exclusive. Other sources say that the Interceptor can do rolls and such that most other craft can't and outperformed nearly every other craft in Dogfights. This doesn't contradict the statement in SWCV nor lore written for the Defender because the Defender has a fatal weakness that is most easily exploited in dogfights by the TIE Avenger, A-Wings, and TIE Interceptors, Its its huge blind spot 6 o'clock high. Thats not saying other craft can't but it was usually the most maneuverable craft that did exploit this weakness. Granted the A-wing probably is relying on missiles to finish off the unsuspecting TIE Defender, its much easier for the other two to finish of the Defender because of the weapons they are normally carrying. Even going head to head Avenger or Interceptor vs Defender would be a super quick engagement because of the cannons. Any other fighter it would probably be suicide going head to head with a Defender.

Actually what makes a fighter craft the best fighter craft overall is the pilot, that goes for real life as well. The Interceptor has many features that make it a better dogfigher. Since it is able to manipulate its thrust vectoring for its ion projectors independently it is easier to do delayed maneuvers and or misleading maneuvers that can put the enemy in positions they don't want to be in, which is in front of the Interceptor. Unlike the Defender the Interceptor, as well as the Avenger, are much smaller targets, especially when comparing the craft with their shields turned on. Its harder to spot and harder to hit compared to the Defender, depending on the circumstances but usually its size will betray it. The Interceptor doesn't suffer from the design flaws that plaque the Defender, its blind-spots. It may actually have more than just one, but this was one of the reasons while Stele choose to use the Avenger over the Defender when he joined the 181st. Like the TIE/LN the TIE Interceptor can easily be fitted with additional equipment and weapons. Most Interceptors use the same reactor a TIE Avenger uses. Interceptors can easily be mounted with multipurpose warhead launcher, hyperdrive, additional advanced ecm and eccm equipment, even additional LASER or blaster weapons or other pieces of hardware required for a mission. Elite TIE Interceptor squadrons were doing this all the time, Avenger Squadron so far has the most nonstandard altered Interceptors. This doesn't seem to be the case with Defenders. They can be modified, all craft can, but it appears to not be as easy as it is for Fighters and Interceptors.

I mentioned it before but just as an example of the accumulation of the things I have mentioned... Baron Fel killed the squadron leader and ace of Red Star squadron. The only thing it appears Fel has ever changed with his Interceptor is the avionics / pilot interface. Red Star 1 was a heavily modified TIE Defender.

What you you even talking about? Manually controlled thrust in this high-tech level of space combat? Han being Force Sensitive? Visual blind spots in a universe with futuristic sensors?

I...I'm not even sure we're thinking of the same space opera...

... i mean if we really think about it. Shrapnel actually destroys modern space craft. You can get around that with "forcefield" shields, but... meh.

Also none of the other ships can really turn or dampen their forward momentum because their thrusters all face backwards. And no vectoring on most.

Hell, the best dogfighter is probably a ball with "shields" thrusters all over the hull and laser pointed out the front.

We assume the shields can push away shrapnel... which, scientifically/physically, is pretty hard to do when everything is moving at hundreds mph relative to the spacecraft. (Or not moving, difference of speed relatively.)

There are two types of shields ray/deflector used against weapons fire and navigational used to deflect to micro meteors, particles and other small threats.

Even tie fighters have the latter type.

Rebuilding the Defender for fun...

I'll give it a bash, and keep things as close to the original incantation as possible.

We keep the statline the same as it currently is, as I think its pretty solid. We know the ship isn't 'bad' just too expensive.

Statline

3/3/3/3

Dial

I'm not sure exactly what the 'flavour' of the dial should be. Some say it's a maneuverable ship and should be able to shoot around like an Interceptor, so we'll use the Interceptor as inspiration when we make changes. In game terms, I'd like to encourage the 'Boom and Zoom' style, as opposed to the 'Knife Fighter' style of something like the B-Wings. The emphasis will be on speed.

We'll go with the current dial, but do some re-colouring. I've used the Interceptor Green move pattern, but increased the speed to 3 instead of 2 making it shed stress pretty easily (unlike now) but it must be going fast to do so. I've given it a 2H White so it at least has some options during turns and it can still do a 1H if you really need to.

I was tossing up the idea of a Green K, but decided it'd be better to add a 5K to the dial, to reinforce the speed aspect and to make a possible K-Turn a little harder to guess for the opponent. Having a white 4K is great but also pretty limiting because everyone knows when you are going to do it, and exactly how far you will move if you do.

1H, 1B - Red

2H, 2B, 2S - White

3H, 3B, 3S - Green

4S - Green, 4K - White

5S - Green, 5K - White

Actions

Target Lock, Focus, Barrel Roll, Boost (we're sticking with the 'it's like an interceptor' idea, but the ship plays differently)

Pilots

(30 points) PS 3 Generic (Missile, Cannon) - I believe it's worth having a Generic without an EPT

(32 points) PS 5 Generic (Missile, Cannon, EPT) - Like the Saber Squadron Pilot, but better.

(34 points) Vessery (Missile, Cannon, EPT) - Same pilot ability

(36 points) Brath (Missile, Cannon, EPT) - Same pilot ability

This is a ship I would like to fly.

The ship would have needed to cost 3 points less, or cost the same and have native boost. Then we would be in competitive territory already. Maybe it should also have gotten the systems slot instead of the Phantom!

I doubt it has computer controlled thrust vectoring, at least dumped together with the other systems the computer helps manage, because it says its manually controlled, I didn't say the entire system was manually controlled. For someone that is force sensitive not having everything grouped together or even automated would matter, hence why Anakin was able to podrace and win / survive while lots of aliens with the capability to pilot craft without computer assisted avionics, or at the least ones that are more advanced than we have now, and be expected to have a fair chance of surviving.

What you said about force sensitives isn't true. Every named IMP pilot just about in the lore is force sensitive. Just because someone is a force sensitive doesn't mean they are someone that is capable of using the force "actively." It is a faith based power for the most part. Take Solo for example, he is a force sensitive, he was in the GE btw, yet he could never be a Jedi or any other type of force user because he doesn't believe in that sort of thing even though he unknowingly uses the force when he piloting craft, while hes in the zone at least. The only force sensitives that were hunted and killed were the ones that knew they had the ability to do special things, they might not even know what the force is, like Ewoks. Ewoks have force users time but they think its just magic.

SWCV doesn't mention the TIE Defender but that doesn't make it a unreliable source, if that were the case every book written for SW lore would be unreliable just because no one yet has a profile for every ship in SW, nor vehicle, nor weapon and characters. The book does have EU craft in it like the TIE Scout, or at-least talks about the TIE Scout, so its not like this book is movie exclusive. Other sources say that the Interceptor can do rolls and such that most other craft can't and outperformed nearly every other craft in Dogfights. This doesn't contradict the statement in SWCV nor lore written for the Defender because the Defender has a fatal weakness that is most easily exploited in dogfights by the TIE Avenger, A-Wings, and TIE Interceptors, Its its huge blind spot 6 o'clock high. Thats not saying other craft can't but it was usually the most maneuverable craft that did exploit this weakness. Granted the A-wing probably is relying on missiles to finish off the unsuspecting TIE Defender, its much easier for the other two to finish of the Defender because of the weapons they are normally carrying. Even going head to head Avenger or Interceptor vs Defender would be a super quick engagement because of the cannons. Any other fighter it would probably be suicide going head to head with a Defender.

Actually what makes a fighter craft the best fighter craft overall is the pilot, that goes for real life as well. The Interceptor has many features that make it a better dogfigher. Since it is able to manipulate its thrust vectoring for its ion projectors independently it is easier to do delayed maneuvers and or misleading maneuvers that can put the enemy in positions they don't want to be in, which is in front of the Interceptor. Unlike the Defender the Interceptor, as well as the Avenger, are much smaller targets, especially when comparing the craft with their shields turned on. Its harder to spot and harder to hit compared to the Defender, depending on the circumstances but usually its size will betray it. The Interceptor doesn't suffer from the design flaws that plaque the Defender, its blind-spots. It may actually have more than just one, but this was one of the reasons while Stele choose to use the Avenger over the Defender when he joined the 181st. Like the TIE/LN the TIE Interceptor can easily be fitted with additional equipment and weapons. Most Interceptors use the same reactor a TIE Avenger uses. Interceptors can easily be mounted with multipurpose warhead launcher, hyperdrive, additional advanced ecm and eccm equipment, even additional LASER or blaster weapons or other pieces of hardware required for a mission. Elite TIE Interceptor squadrons were doing this all the time, Avenger Squadron so far has the most nonstandard altered Interceptors. This doesn't seem to be the case with Defenders. They can be modified, all craft can, but it appears to not be as easy as it is for Fighters and Interceptors.

I mentioned it before but just as an example of the accumulation of the things I have mentioned... Baron Fel killed the squadron leader and ace of Red Star squadron. The only thing it appears Fel has ever changed with his Interceptor is the avionics / pilot interface. Red Star 1 was a heavily modified TIE Defender.

As I said before, it says that it can be manually controlled. That doesn't mean that it must.

Also, I didn't say that it's an unreliable source, I said that it's an unreliable source for comparing which of the two is the superior craft. There's a pretty big difference...and it's impossible to compare two things with a source that completely omits one.

Additionally, there's no reason to modify the Defender when the factory stock version is better than any post-production modifications would be - it was designed to be as best as possible, no matter the cost. You seem to think that this would be a setback, when it is in fact a benefit.

You seem to forget the targeting systems all ships had in the video games - visual blind spots are irrelevant when everyone has full 360^o sensors. Also, being a slightly larger target and being easier to spot isn't going to help someone against a Defender when the Defender is more maneuverable. Put an F-16 against an F-22 in a dogfight with equal pilots, and the size difference won't matter at all.

Here is an archived version of the starwars.com databank page on the TIE Defender:http://web.archive.org/web/20100328055302/http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tiedefender/index.html

From that page: "A triple array of maneuvering jets on the branching tri-wing assembly allows the TIE defender to tumble through seemingly impossible dives and jinks, outshining the impressive TIE interceptor in sheer agilihy."

I don't see any reason why I should continue to revisit the same discussion when you are quite plainly wrong about the Interceptor being better than the Defender.

It never says anywhere that those controls can we switched on a whim, that's why I am sure it can't, we get a good chunk of lore oabout those controls, if they were "inuniverse" created to do what you are saying they can, the writters would have written it. As it stands it is shown inuniverse being downed by Interceptors and Avengers besides it stating that the TIE Interceptor is the Empires best Dogfighter its probably safe to assume the Avenger is also a better Dog Fighter. As for size it does matter in this fight. Are you aware that the Interceptor and probably the Avenger as we'll, have the capability to fire their laser beams nearly in 180 degree arc? During the civil war the tech for laser weapons evoloved so that fighter could alter the path of the laser and other energy weapons. Being a big target in a dog fight with carft that have a firing arc like that, some with the ability to instantly kill because of fire power, is a real bad thing for any craft.

Another thing I will point out is that with ecm involved, and all these ships have powerful composite defensive systems, their is no promise that the Defender will have a target lock or even tracking with its active and passive scanning equipment. Which is one of the reasons Interceptors and Avengers could slip into its blind spots and down Defenders. Its riten in the lore that this has happend, its not just an opinion. Besides Fel and Stele opting not to use Defenders, and sticking with Interceptors, Avengers, I will point out that whoever was in charge of the Emperors security while traveling in his shuttle, choose TIE Interceptors for long range travels. You can say that the 181st couldn't use them when Fel was around because the Defender was not made in lrge numbers, but I am sure if the Emperor wanted his RG to fly Defenders he would havethem fly them instead of the Interceptors.. Interceptors are the fighter of choice for IMPs who do a lot of Dogfighting because it is the best dogfighter. It has beter atributes for dogfighting than the defender, and they have shown that time and again in the actual lore involoving them fighting each other, excluding simulations.

As it stan

Also none of the other ships can really turn or dampen their forward momentum because their thrusters all face backwards. And no vectoring on most.

Hell, the best dogfighter is probably a ball with "shields" thrusters all over the hull and laser pointed out the front.

We assume the shields can push away shrapnel... which, scientifically/physically, is pretty hard to do when everything is moving at hundreds mph relative to the spacecraft. (Or not moving, difference of speed relatively.)

By the time of the civil war all imp and reb craft have vectoring, even the Y-Wing A4 and S3. They can all manipulate how they travel through space in a way not know. All that is known is once this piece of equipment is turned off they move like spacecraft we have now or BSG & B5 craft. I think Wedge did a spin, the last star fighter style, and took out some enemies. I know someone did it I justt dontremember.

My rebuild? 1 green banks in addition to the current dial, drop the cost by 1-2 points and give the Onyx (and maybe even Deltas) an EPT slot

Just give them a shared discount pool of 4 points on secondary weapons and modifications and they are good.

So you could take:

Delta (30) + HLC (7-4) = 33 points

Delta (30) + Ion Cannon (3-3) + Ion Engine Upgrade (1-1) = 30 points

Delta (30) + Engine Upgrade (4-4) + Ion Cannon (3) = 33 points

Rexler (37) + HLC (7-4) = 40 points

Vessery (35) + Mangler (4-4) + Outmaneuver (3) = 38 points

and so on and so on....