Start with the Pilot skill, none under 5. Defender Pilots,(As well as Tie Advanced Pilots), are the best in the Empire. (I'm scratching my head trying to figure that out why there is pilot skills of 1,2 or 3.) Though a good pilot ability for one defender pilot would be Pilot skill 0/12, which means the pilot always moves first and always fire first.

Primary Weapon 3/3, the defender has 6 laser, the Defender fire two attacks of 3 red dice, (4 red dice if with in range 1). Both shots must be of the same target.

Evade 3 green dice

Hull 4

Shield 2

Actions Focus, Target Lock, Boost, Evade?

Upgrades Elite, Cannon, Missile

Maneuver Chart

(5) blank blank 5G Straight blank blank 5W-Kturn

(4) blank blank 4G-Straight blank blank

(3) 3G-Turn 3G-Bank 3G-Striaght 3G-Bank 3G-Turn 3R-Kturn

(2) 2R-Turn 2W-Bank 2W-Straight 2W-Bank 2R-Turn

(1) 1R-Turn blank blank blank 1R-Turn

Defenders are super fast the 3 turns and banks are easy for it it's the close turns and banks that are very hard! This is what I think the defender should have been built according to the information that I ready. Please feel free to commit. :-)

Pilot skill 0/12

Primary Weapon 3/3

The Defender's only major flaw is its cost.

One thing that I can agree is limiting the slow maneuvers to red while having the greens as the fastest maneuvers. It would have made the ship unique in an interesting way as opposed to a crippling way.

Pilot skill 0/12

No, and...

Primary Weapon 3/3

...definitely no.

The Defender's only major flaw is its cost.

And seemingly that's mostly contained to the generics, as Vessery is good value with a nice friend, and Rexler is at least not unreasonable value.

Pilot skill 0/12

No, and...

Primary Weapon 3/3

...definitely no.

The Defender's only major flaw is its cost.

Who said the Defenders was Flawed, . And the pilot skill of 0/12 is for one defender pilot special abilty is too much but Corran Horn's ability isn't. Interesting.

Please explain. A Tie Fighter has 2 lasers and an Attack of two. A Tie Interceptor as 4 Lasers and an Attack of 3. A Tie Defender has 6 lasers and attack of 3. So if the defender has 6 laser why does it only have 3 attack?

So the PS 5 generic would be 45 points? Okay...The Tie Defender had 4 laser cannons and 2 Ion cannons.

/in before the crowd of people saying "Cannons don't equal attack dice, blah blah blah blah...."

My Defender would be:

3/3/3/4

Target Lock, Focus, Boost

Cannon, Missile

Lowest generic Delta Sqd PS 3 at 32 points. Then a PS 5 Onyx Sqd with EPT at 34 points. Vessery and Brath the same but 1 more point expensive.

Only thing I would change on the dial is make the 2 turns white and the 2 banks green. Leave everything else the same.

Primary Weapon 3/3, the defender has 6 laser, the Defender fire two attacks of 3 red dice, (4 red dice if with in range 1). Both shots must be of the same target.

So the X-wing and TIE interceptor have 4 attack, the Lambda, Decimator and Falcon have 8 and the phantom has 5?

The defender is one of the fastest ships in the empire, (If I read the information correctly,) The Defender is not nimble like a Tie Fighter but more like a bullet, so agree about having not Barrel Roll, It's just moving to fast.

Primary Weapon 3/3, the defender has 6 laser, the Defender fire two attacks of 3 red dice, (4 red dice if with in range 1). Both shots must be of the same target.

So the X-wing and TIE interceptor have 4 attack, the Lambda, Decimator and Falcon have 8 and the phantom has 5?

OK! My point was just to start a conversation. The Defender, According to the SO-Called Lore, is one of the Fastest and the most deadly ships in the empire.

Who said the Defenders was Flawed, .

Lots of people, but in this thread it was me.

And the pilot skill of 0/12 is for one defender pilot special abilty is too much but Corran Horn's ability isn't. Interesting.

Corran's ability doesn't have anything to do with this. Writing "0/12" as a pilot skill isn't ever going to happen--there's nothing unbalanced about it, but it's an uncomfortable kludge that doesn't have an obvious meaning in the game.

What we might see is a pilot ability that says something like "At the start of the activation phase, you may choose to treat your pilot skill as 0 until the end of the phase. At the start of the combat phase, you may choose to treat your pilot skill value as 12 until the end of the phase." (Although that's probably too long to fit comfortably.)

Please explain. A Tie Fighter has 2 lasers and an Attack of two. A Tie Interceptor as 4 Lasers and an Attack of 3. A Tie Defender has 6 lasers and attack of 3. So if the defender has 6 laser why does it only have 3 attack?

The Defender has four laser cannons, not six. (The last two are a pair of ion cannons, which is why it has the cannon upgrade slot.) So giving it the same firepower as an X-wing (four laser cannons) or a TIE Interceptor (also four laser cannons) makes a lot of sense.

Additionally, counting barrels has a very weak relationship to total firepower in X-wing. The game has to work as a game as well as supporting and respecting the theme and source material--and a ship that gets two attacks with 4 dice at Range 1, every turn with no limitations, is drastically and hilariously overpowered.

Primary Weapon 3/3, the defender has 6 laser, the Defender fire two attacks of 3 red dice, (4 red dice if with in range 1). Both shots must be of the same target.

So the X-wing and TIE interceptor have 4 attack, the Lambda, Decimator and Falcon have 8 and the phantom has 5?

No no no... the Falcon has 2 attacks of 4. Capable of shooting at different targets. Out of arc.

honestly the weird slash costs are NOT HELPING.

MAKE IT SIMPLE. NOT COMPLICATED.

--

Honestly the defender would be worth its cost if it had:

+1 shield

2 banks green

another K-turn red or white.

and the EFFING EVADE ACTION

OR

drop 3 point cost generics, 1 point named.

Also the PS3 really needed an EPT slot.

Disclaimer!! This post is to start a conversation and nothing more. There is no alternative agenda. Nor is there any assumption that any thing is flawed or broken or any thing else.

Remember the Title, (Just for Fun!)

Writing "0/12" as a pilot skill isn't ever going to happen--there's nothing unbalanced about it,

What we might see is a pilot ability that says something like "At the start of the activation phase, you may choose to treat your pilot skill as 0 until the end of the phase. At the start of the combat phase, you may choose to treat your pilot skill value as 12 until the end of the phase." (Although that's probably too long to fit comfortably.

Just throwing Ideas out, so That when FFG reads the post there will come up with something that works.

The Defender has four laser cannons, not six. (The last two are a pair of ion cannons, which is why it has the cannon upgrade slot.) So giving it the same firepower as an X-wing (four laser cannons) or a TIE Interceptor (also four laser cannons) makes a lot of sense.

Additionally, counting barrels has a very weak relationship to total firepower in X-wing. The game has to work as a game as well as supporting and respecting the theme and source material--and a ship that gets two attacks with 4 dice at Range 1, every turn with no limitations, is drastically and hilariously overpowered.

That's even better, they should get there primary and and the Ion cannon attack, At the same time!

Maneuver Chart

(5) blank blank 5G Straight blank blank 5W-Kturn

(4) blank blank 4G-Straight blank blank

(3) 3G-Turn 3G-Bank 3G-Striaght 3G-Bank 3G-Turn 3R-Kturn

(2) 2R-Turn 2W-Bank 2W-Straight 2W-Bank 2R-Turn

(1) 1R-Turn blank blank blank 1R-Turn

"A" for effort Bro, but I don't like how you have red transitioning to green.

I like my "fun" version better, for its balance.

That's even better, they should get there primary and and the Ion cannon attack, At the same time!

This isn't necessarily a flaw only with the Defender but a lot of the more expensive ships. All of the generic pilots lack any EPT when other ships like the A Wing and Tie Fighter have generics with one. These 'newer' craft were supposed to be given to the elite but apparently Z 95 pilots know how to fly better than a Defender who yo quote FFG must have flown 20 successful combat missions. Hopefully thatlol be changed in an faq

Good Lord that looks HORRIBLY unbalanced not to mention incorrect in matters of canon. The Defender has 4 laser cannons, not 6

What we have could use a bit of a boost, but besides that, it looks about right.

This isn't necessarily a flaw only with the Defender but a lot of the more expensive ships. All of the generic pilots lack any EPT when other ships like the A Wing and Tie Fighter have generics with one. These 'newer' craft were supposed to be given to the elite but apparently Z 95 pilots know how to fly better than a Defender who yo quote FFG must have flown 20 successful combat missions. Hopefully thatlol be changed in an faq

Pilot skill isn't universal. It is a pilot's skill flying a certain ship.

A combat hardened veteran from an Interceptor isn't going to be crazy good in a Defender right off the bat.

This isn't necessarily a flaw only with the Defender but a lot of the more expensive ships. All of the generic pilots lack any EPT when other ships like the A Wing and Tie Fighter have generics with one. These 'newer' craft were supposed to be given to the elite but apparently Z 95 pilots know how to fly better than a Defender who yo quote FFG must have flown 20 successful combat missions. Hopefully thatlol be changed in an faq

Pilot skill isn't universal. It is a pilot's skill flying a certain ship.

A combat hardened veteran from an Interceptor isn't going to be crazy good in a Defender right off the bat.

Isn't that what Pilot training in a new space craft is for? Veteran Pilots learn very quickly.

Good Lord that looks HORRIBLY unbalanced not to mention incorrect in matters of canon. The Defender has 4 laser cannons, not 6

What we have could use a bit of a boost, but besides that, it looks about right.

I know 4 lasers and two Ions. We should link them all together! Teach those rebel scum some, hey, what a minute. DOn't you fly a y-wing?

Maneuver Chart

(5) blank blank 5G Straight blank blank 5W-Kturn

(4) blank blank 4G-Straight blank blank

(3) 3G-Turn 3G-Bank 3G-Striaght 3G-Bank 3G-Turn 3R-Kturn

(2) 2R-Turn 2W-Bank 2W-Straight 2W-Bank 2R-Turn

(1) 1R-Turn blank blank blank 1R-Turn

"A" for effort Bro, but I don't like how you have red transitioning to green.

I like my "fun" version better, for its balance.

That's even better, they should get there primary and and the Ion cannon attack, At the same time!

You're talking about a fire-linked title like the Y-wing, I think that's cool.

I like it, but I think that the defender is moving way to fast for a barrel roll, the ship is not designed to be nimble. Though I really like the Green KTurn, I don't think that will every be allowed. But we can dream.

So the PS 5 generic would be 45 points? Okay...The Tie Defender had 4 laser cannons and 2 Ion cannons.

/in before the crowd of people saying "Cannons don't equal attack dice, blah blah blah blah...."

My Defender would be:

3/3/3/4

Target Lock, Focus, Boost

Cannon, Missile

Lowest generic Delta Sqd PS 3 at 32 points. Then a PS 5 Onyx Sqd with EPT at 34 points. Vessery and Brath the same but 1 more point expensive.

Only thing I would change on the dial is make the 2 turns white and the 2 banks green. Leave everything else the same.

Defenders are supposed to have twice the shields of an X Wing, so a 4 for shields makes sense.

Also boost instead of barrel roll makes a ton of sense.

I'd give them a system slot too (beam weapons, etc) though.

I'd further increase the ps 3 pilot to 33 pts (so much 3s) and give him an EPT.

I'd leave the ps 5 the same.

Vessery I'd up to ps 7.

Rexler stays the same.

What I would do if I were rebuilding the TIE Defender to be closer to the lore:
-PS 3 and 5 generics, with the Skill 5 having an EPT. Now, one might say "oh, the Defender is a new and experimental ship, and an ace in an Interceptor might not be that good in a new ship"...to which I say that the Empire has the time and resources to fully train pilots on their new craft, and to not do so when both the veteran pilot and the advanced starfighter are rare and expensive commodities is utterly stupid. And besides, a veteran pilot in a ship that is new to him will be far better at combat than a newbie - there will still be some learning, and the veteran won't be able to fully push his ship to the edge of the envelope, but transitioning to a new ship won't erase the hours of flight and combat experience, the months or years of pilot training, and the combat instincts and reflexes learned over that period. Also, the TIE series starfighters are pretty similar, and the learning curve to go from TIE Fighter to TIE Interceptor to TIE Defender would be much shallower than, say, going from X-Wing to A-Wing or Y-Wing to B-Wing, or even T-16 to Z-95 to T-65.

Also, as it stands currently:
Delta Squadron "I survived twenty combat missions in an Interceptor!" TIE Defender pilot: PS1
Rookie "Sure, I'll fight the Empire" just-passed-his-Rebel-piloting-exam-and-probably-doesn't-have-a-kill-to-his-name X-Wing pilot: PS2
What is wrong with this picture?

So, PS3 and 5 generics. I'd probably keep the statline the same save for giving it one more shield. I'd add Boost and Evade to the Action Bar. (yes, I know FFG hasn't made a ship with all five on the bar. I don't care - the Defender should have all five.) As far as the dial goes... *takes Defender dial, dips it in green paint, scrapes a bit off of the K-Turn for balance reasons*. More realistically, I would probably remove all of the red from the dial, make the 2- and 3-banks green, and either the 2- or 3- hard turns (probably the 3, as that makes it more different from the Interceptor).

Instead of adding Boost to the action bar, I would be tempted to include the following upgrade:
TIE Defender Veteran
Title. TIE Defender Only.
Immediately after you reveal a maneuver, if the revealed maneuver is a green maneuver, you may perform a free Boost or Barrel Roll action before executing the maneuver.

This would represent the Defender's superior maneuverability without making it too crazy, and it would be both better and worse than Advanced Sensors - it still allows you to take your post-maneuver action(s), but would only work with green maneuvers, would only allow one pre-maneuver Boost or Barrel Roll, and would come with the price of removing the Boost and Barrel Roll from the action bar.

So, my changes in summary:
Delta Squadron Pilot: PS3
Onyx Squadron Pilot: PS5, EPT
+1 Shield to all
Add Evade action
Remove Barrel Roll
No red maneuvers
2- and 3- banks are green
3- turns are green
Cool pre-maneuver Boost/Roll upgrade

Note that I didn't mention a points cost for any of this, as that seems to be one major place where controversy arises. Needless to say, if I were able to make these changes, it would come with appropriate testing to determine a fair points value.

I like it, but I think that the defender is moving way to fast for a barrel roll, the ship is not designed to be nimble.

Nonsense. The TIE Defender was the most agile ship in the galaxy during the Galactic Civil War, bar none. I don't know where these inaccuracies (Rebel propaganda?) about the Defender's capabilities started...but as far as I can tell, it began with FFG's interpretations of the Defender in X-Wing and Age of Rebellion. Perhaps the rot spreads further back in time, however.

"[The TIE Defender's] design enables [it] to perform steep dives, a variety of spins and twists, and tight turns." "Maneuvering jet arrays on the tri-wing assembly allow sublight acrobatics impossible in other TIE craft." Both of these quotes are from The New Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels.

For the relevant Wookieepedia section on the Defender's maneuverability in various sources: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/D_Defender#Behind_the_scenes

I like flying the Defender, but I agree it is to expensive. Maybe a fix similar to the Y-wing title. Something like Tie Defender armament: The Tie defender comes with a build in Ion cannon that it may fire after its primary weapon. 1/0 pts?

An ace pack with some interresting named pilots would do wonders to, I feel Rexlar and Vesserys abilities are a bit bland.

The Defender looks like it was build for barrel rolling, how about a pilot that can use the 2 template instead of 1 for barrel rolling?

I'd start by giving them access to White Segnor Loops.