I just noticed that unlike Wedge or Outmaneuver, Intimidation does not have a minimum agility of zero. I don't see this addressed in the FAQ. The FAQ only says that you ignore an "minimum of 0" text until you've applied all of the modifiers.

This leads me to believe that Intimidation has the ability to end up denying defense dice for range or obstacles by giving the target ship a negative agility.Is there anything that I'm missing that would restrict Intimidation from giving a target a negative agility?

FAQ entry dealing with Increasing and Reducing Values:

When multiple card effects or abilities increase or reduce a value, such as agility, ignore any “to a minimum of 0” restrictions until the calculation is complete. For example, if a ship with a printed agility value of “0” and the “Structural Damage” card uses “Countermeasures,” its agility is “0.”

Relevant cards:

I seriously doubt that is how it works.

Example:

A Patrol Leader has been bumped by a Black Squadron Pilot with Intimidation.

If we suppose the Patrol Leader has an agility of -1, how many dice does the Patrol Leader roll when defending from a range 1 or 2 attack?

He can't possibly roll -1 dice... he rolls 0.

If defending from a range 3 attack, he rolls an extra defense die.

Without the range 3 bonus, he rolls 0, so an extra die means he rolls 1.

I'm pretty darn sure the "minimum of '0'" text doesn't actually do anything, ever.

And the FAQ entry is just so people don't say that the agility is reduced to -1, but 0 because "minimum of 0", and then Kenkirk/Stealth Device bring it back up to 1.

Even if the agility could be -1 or lower. That still wouldn't effect the range or obstructed attack bonus since those add dice not agility.

Even if the agility could be -1 or lower. That still wouldn't effect the range or obstructed attack bonus since those add dice not agility.

It would effect the number of dice that you roll since you get the number of defense dice by adding Agility+OtherBonuses. If you had -1 Agility you'd need to get both an obstacle and range bonus to get 1 die.

And if intimidation did, somehow allow negative agility which could cancel out the effect of range 3 and obstacle bonuses...

It would give rise to weird scenarios:

Patrol Leader is bumped by 2 A-Wings with Intimidation.

His agility is -2.

A Rookie takes a range 3 shot through a rock and the Patrol Leader rolls 0 dice (-2 agility + 2 extra dice = 0)

Wedge takes a range 3 shot through a rock and the Patrol Leader rolls 2 dice (-3 agility, but minimum 0, + 2 extra dice = 2)

Hehe.

It seems like an odd coincidence that the first ship in the game that has 0 Agility comes with an Agility reducing upgrade that omits the bit about "to minimum of 0". The existence of a 0 Agility ships seems to make that particular caveat more necessary than it was in the past.

And if intimidation did, somehow allow negative agility which could cancel out the effect of range 3 and obstacle bonuses...

It would give rise to weird scenarios:

Patrol Leader is bumped by 2 A-Wings with Intimidation.

His agility is -2.

A Rookie takes a range 3 shot through a rock and the Patrol Leader rolls 0 dice (-2 agility + 2 extra dice = 0)

Wedge takes a range 3 shot through a rock and the Patrol Leader rolls 2 dice (-3 agility, but minimum 0, + 2 extra dice = 2)

Hehe.

I was thinking that same thing.

Even if the agility could be -1 or lower. That still wouldn't effect the range or obstructed attack bonus since those add dice not agility.

It would effect the number of dice that you roll since you get the number of defense dice by adding Agility+OtherBonuses. If you had -1 Agility you'd need to get both an obstacle and range bonus to get 1 die.

How many dice would you roll if your agility is -1 ?

Even if the agility could be -1 or lower. That still wouldn't effect the range or obstructed attack bonus since those add dice not agility.

It would effect the number of dice that you roll since you get the number of defense dice by adding Agility+OtherBonuses. If you had -1 Agility you'd need to get both an obstacle and range bonus to get 1 die.

How many dice would you roll if your agility is -1 ?

The closest thing the rules call out is for attack dice, they don't have a similar call out for defense dice. The attack dice section does establish that it is possible to have less than 0 dice to roll.

From a box on page 11 of the rules:

Combat Bonuses There are several factors that may modify a ship’s attack. All dice modifiers are cumulative. If modifiers would reduce the attacker’s dice to zero or less, then the attack causes no damage

It would effect the number of dice that you roll since you get the number of defense dice by adding Agility+OtherBonuses.

That's not what the rules say though.

Core rules page 12

The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to the ship’s agility value (the green number shown on its Ship card and ship token).

The defender resolves any card abilities that allow him to roll additional (or fewer) dice. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by the attacker’s primary weapon, he rolls 1 additional defense die.

It says you roll dice equal to the agility value, with an additional dice if range 3+, that is an absolute, the ship's agility doesn't factor in when at range 3+. It works the same with obstructed attacks, you get an additional die, not a +1 agility.

That's not what the rules say though.

Core rules page 12

The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to the ship’s agility value (the green number shown on its Ship card and ship token).

The defender resolves any card abilities that allow him to roll additional (or fewer) dice. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by the attacker’s primary weapon, he rolls 1 additional defense die.

It says you roll dice equal to the agility value, with an additional dice if range 3+, that is an absolute, the ship's agility doesn't factor in when at range 3+. It works the same with obstructed attacks, you get an additional die, not a +1 agility.

Right. You figure out what your Agility value is, and once you've considered all the modifiers to your Agility value, if it's less than 0 it becomes 0. Then you add any additional defense dice from range, obstacles, and any other random bonuses that don't change your Agility.

That's not what the rules say though.

Core rules page 12

The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to the ship’s agility value (the green number shown on its Ship card and ship token).

The defender resolves any card abilities that allow him to roll additional (or fewer) dice. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by the attacker’s primary weapon, he rolls 1 additional defense die.

It says you roll dice equal to the agility value, with an additional dice if range 3+, that is an absolute, the ship's agility doesn't factor in when at range 3+. It works the same with obstructed attacks, you get an additional die, not a +1 agility.

Right. You figure out what your Agility value is, and once you've considered all the modifiers to your Agility value, if it's less than 0 it becomes 0. Then you add any additional defense dice from range, obstacles, and any other random bonuses that don't change your Agility.

So "(to a minimum of 0)" is essentially wasted ink?

It's like a zen koan...

What is the sound of negative one agility dice rolling?

So "(to a minimum of 0)" is essentially wasted ink?

Yes. That's why they stopped wasting ink from the release of "intimidation".

So "(to a minimum of 0)" is essentially wasted ink?

I think it's actually worse than that. "To a minimum of zero" on a given ability introduces questions of order of operations - if it's part of the ability then the order of modifiers matters (e.g. Wedge vs. Kenkirk, who goes first?) but if you take it away, then the order you apply them in becomes irrelevant, and you have a simple understanding of "Numbers below zero mean nothing".

So even more than wasted ink, including that in the ability creates confusion and uncertainty in how abilities interact.

That's not what the rules say though.

Core rules page 12

The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to the ship’s agility value (the green number shown on its Ship card and ship token).

The defender resolves any card abilities that allow him to roll additional (or fewer) dice. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by the attacker’s primary weapon, he rolls 1 additional defense die.

It says you roll dice equal to the agility value, with an additional dice if range 3+, that is an absolute, the ship's agility doesn't factor in when at range 3+. It works the same with obstructed attacks, you get an additional die, not a +1 agility.

Right. You figure out what your Agility value is, and once you've considered all the modifiers to your Agility value, if it's less than 0 it becomes 0. Then you add any additional defense dice from range, obstacles, and any other random bonuses that don't change your Agility.

So "(to a minimum of 0)" is essentially wasted ink?

Yes it is. You cannot possibly roll less than zero dice for agility.

The other thing to take into account is the timing of the release of some of these "minimum of 0" upgrades. The Minimum of "0" ruling came out in the FAQ from September last year, so any upgrade or pilot ability that alters Agility, released after that is now covered by that ruling, thus making the inclusion of the text on the card superfluous.

It's like a zen koan...

What is the sound of negative one agility dice rolling?

If a tree falls in a forest, but there's no one there to hear it, does it make the same sound as a -1 dice roll?

The other thing to take into account is the timing of the release of some of these "minimum of 0" upgrades. The Minimum of "0" ruling came out in the FAQ from September last year, so any upgrade or pilot ability that alters Agility, released after that is now covered by that ruling, thus making the inclusion of the text on the card superfluous.

I disagree. The "to a minimum of 0" text is what created the situation that needed that FAQ entry in the first place. Without penalties to agility having a floor, there is no need to worry about the order that upgrades are applied (at least until we start getting more multipliers). The issue only existed because if you did exactly what the card said you could get a result other than what the designers intended. What's more, the FAQ entry doesn't apply a default "minimum 0" condition. It just has you wait to apply any "to a minimum of zero" clauses from the cards until after all modifiers have been added up.

So what you're saying is if you don't have any cards with the "minimum of 0" text on them, then there is no minimum?

I think the intention of the FAQ entry is pretty clear and logical.

Combat Bonuses There are several factors that may modify a ship’s attack. All dice modifiers are cumulative. If modifiers would reduce the attacker’s dice to zero or less, then the attack causes no damage

EDIT: Or, even weirder, take it pedantically to mean you can add two HIT results, but the attack still won't cause any damage regardless of the defense roll. But it might still count as a hit and trigger non-damage effects like ion tokens.

Except for the fact that where an upgrade card or ability may conflict with a rule, the card text overrides the general rules.

So what you're saying is if you don't have any cards with the "minimum of 0" text on them, then there is no minimum?

I think the intention of the FAQ entry is pretty clear and logical.

FAQ entry dealing with Increasing and Reducing Values:

When multiple card effects or abilities increase or reduce a value, such as agility, ignore any “to a minimum of 0” restrictions until the calculation is complete. For example, if a ship with a printed agility value of “0” and the “Structural Damage” card uses “Countermeasures,” its agility is “0.”

I don't see anything in that block that suggests that all calculations should have a minimum of zero. That block directs you as to when a minimum value should be applied if something does specify a minimum value. Is there another FAQ entry that I should be looking at?

As others in this thread have stated, there is no functional difference (currently) to having a -1 or 0 Agility. The FAQ entry is only required because some cards have the "to a minimum of 0" clause. If no cards carried that language it wouldn't matter what order Wedge and Kenkirk's abilities were applied on a Decimator because you'd always get the same result.

Interestingly, I just noticed that Expose also lacks the minimum value clause.

One scenario the FAQ changed:

defender: VT-49 (agility 0)

attacker: Wedge (agility -1, change to 0)

outmaneuver on Wedge (agility -1, change to 0)

stealth device on VT-49 (agility +1)

Prior to the FAQ that resulted in a total of one, not zero.

i imagine its the same as the expose action at range 3, you still get the 1 green die