Let me try this again, in the next post. The forum software garbled my reply, and the editor doesn't let me fix it right.

It seems the forum reply is acting up again, so this won't look as nice as it should:

Halfinger said:
Paying for a service gives you no right to abuse it. And when I bought the game I didnt see 'Forum included' on the box. Also some of you guys really need to look up what Ad Hominem and Strawman means, you use those techiniques regularly.

Ad Hominem - It means two things:

1) Attacking your opponent's character rather than addressing his arguments. Show me where I've done this? Yes, above, I've said that at times you seem to be acting as apologist, but I've never done this RATHER THAN addressing the arguments. Instead, I've addressed the points you've made, and explained why I disagree with your opinion. In my arguments about the forum, I've attacked the FORUM SOFTWARE mostly. I've also attacked the DEVELOPERS of the software, but not on a "character level", but on a "what kind of results have they produced" level. They should be fired. If I produced this kind of thing in my job, I'd probably be fired if I didn't fix it. And I've not ONCE attacked FFG as a company - I've only stated that their webmaster seems to be failing in his job of fixing this site. I am not attacking his CHARACTER, I'm attacking the lack of RESULTS.

2) Appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason. Again, while I *DO* have emotion behind my opinion, I have used reason to explain why exactly I *DO* have a right to voice them. I've explained my reasons for hating this forum software, and why I think functionally, the other forum is better. Why as a community, it opens more opportunities for interaction. I have NOT simply used "I hate this forum, come over here" as an argument - I've qualified my feelings with reasoning.

So, who of "us guys" have used this argument in this thread? Please cite specific examples.

As for Strawman, i has 3 meanings:

1) a person used as a cover for some questionable activity. I don't think this is the meaning you were aiming at.

2) an effigy in the shape of a man to frighten birds away from seeds. I don't think this applies, either, even figuratively. I'm not trying to "frighten" anyone away from anything. Instead, I'm trying to get FFG to understand our frustrations. I see no reason to "hide" this from new players just to make the forums seem "sterile". I'm not attacking FFG, or driving anyone away. I like FFGs games. I don't think ignoring the problems does anyone any good.

3) a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted. This is a bit more subjective, and probably your intended meaning. Claiming the arguments we set up are "weak" or "sham" and are "easily refuted" though - demonstrate where our arguments have been refuted? The only real argument you've provided in this respect is "you have no right to say such things".

Halfinger said:
If you dont like this site then leave it, simple, and let the rest of us read the forums in peace.

No thanks. I like FFG, I like helping people with their questions. The forum sucks, though, and as long as it's here like this, I'll continue to state my dislike of it. If you don't like reading my complaints, then "leave" or "don't read them". This isn't your forum, and frankly, who are you to try and tell me what I can and cannot do? I'm not attacking you, your character, or your right to be here. I'm stating my dislike of the forums, and frankly, I have EVERY RIGHT to do so.

Halfinger said:
Its a game not life or death. Games are supposed to be pleasurable not the focus of some aggresive postings.

Show me where the focus of my aggressive postings has been the games. You won't find such things; I like the games. And when I don't like a game, I'll post about flaws I've found, and ways to "fix" them. In the case of the forums, I CAN'T fix them, I don't have the authority to do so, and I'm not about to try and hack their system.

Halfinger said:
This whole thing makes me wonder if the lack of facilities was intended.

You're saying that FFG intentionally wanted to make it harder for their community to interact? That they felt there was too much "freedom" in the way the forum members were able to use the forum in the past, and they had to do something to tighten that up and prevent things that are pretty fundamental in most forum software these days? I don't buy that argument.

Halfinger said:
Im telling you straight , once again, and you can take this or not, the attitude of some of the posts here will definately put off players going anywhere near your 'real community' If thats what you want keep going, its not my site and not my problem.

MY real community? I've never claimed TI3WIKI as "my" community. Yes, I prefer that over this one, in terms of functionality and discussion, but I hardly think it's "mine" to have. Maybe some new players may be put off. But others may, on the other hand, be more intrigued by what it may provide that this forum does not. In either case, it's not like it has to be mutually exclusive anyway. I obviously visit both; I visit TI3WIKI more simply because it's easier to get straight to the posts I want to read, but I do come here, too.

Halfinger said:
Maybe your passion for the game and your anger at being cut off from a facility you used means you cant see how your actions can easily be seen as that of a school yard bully.

You accuse ME of Ad Hominem? Yet you compare ME to a schoolyard bully? I've tried to explain all my rationale with logic and reasoning. That doesn't mean I have to agree with you, or anyone. Perhaps some of the "old guard" folks are gruff towards new players in some cases, but I hardly think I'm one of them. Unless a new player comes in being obnoxious, by spamming posts all over, bumping their threads every 5 minutes, or generally acting like a child, I'm pretty tolerant of players. I think the community benefits from having new blood and old blood.

You seem to be lumping everyone at the other forum into the same group, regardless of who they are. That's hardly fair to anyone, because just like any community, there are a wide variety of personalities there. Just like there are a wide variety of personalities here.

Basically, I think this boils down to this - you seem to be tired of hearing about the other forum, to the point where you don't want to go. Fine, that's your choice. However, when it gets to the point where you are trying to tell others to shut up, to stop saying things - well, then you start doing the very things you accuse the "old guard" of doing. If you don't like hearing about the other forum, then you don't need to read this thread. There's not nearly as much "recruiting" going on in the other threads; usually, references to ti3wiki in those threads are more in terms of reference, like "this issue was discussed over there, and here's what the concensus was", or "you can find a bunch of information about it at this link".

I, for one, won't tell you to leave. All I can say is - if you don't like what you are reading, you can stop reading, you can stop coming, or you can continue to debate it. Just as with the forums, I COULD leave, but I'd rather see the forums get better than watch FFG turn into a corporation that tolerates no complaints. I won't say a single bad thing about their customer service department. Top notch. Or their games. Excellent products. I will say something that, to me, is a blemish on their otherwise excellent record: These awful forums. That is something they CAN address, and I hope they DO address, but I'm not going to just hope it goes away.

Im telling you, once again, your attitude and others in your group come across very badly. You cant see that which is fine. Your clearly extremely sensative to any comments and highly defensive. And yes, players that try and control and assert their opinions are bullies no matter how well intended they think they are being.

Also, im not saying another forum is a lot better and this place is terrible, you are. So your poaching from here rather than simple advertising and promoting your site. Your biting the hand that feeds you.

There's very few games left in this world and new comers need to be given the right impressions when they join up. Helping them is great, but chasing them away when they think there's a cliche trying to control a game is not.

This sort of thing is common in ASL, but I didnt expect it in a game like TI3.

The impression you give may be miles away from your intent but its the impression that readers see.

Sigma, I think your words are falling on deaf ears. Or perhaps more fingers in the ears while yelling "I'mnotlistening!" You can keep disassembling his arguments and he's going to continue repeating himself until one of you gives up. That's the internet for you.

To those of you who think I'm a big meanie: I'm really not as bad as people make me out to be. If I were, I would have been driven off with pitchforks and torches a long time ago. Sure, I'm opinionated. I'll stop being that way when I stop being right so often. Sigma's also right on the money when he describes the circumstances that will prompt me and the other "bullies" to go off on somebody. Case in point: A new fellow entered a thread devoted to varianting the Yssaril, with arguments that the Yssaril do not need to be changed. This subject has been debated possibly more than politics and religion on the internet COMBINED, and it was diluting the thread with old garbage. I told him his posts weren't appropriate with the OP's intent to explore variants, and that if he wanted to discuss his preferred subject, he was welcome to start his own thread. I wasn't peaches and cream, but I had point, which even he conceded later on in a PM when I caught him telling someone else the exact same thing!!! Well, at the time, the new guy didn't like it one bit, and a flame war erupted. Well, since then this guy and I have gotten along just fine. Sure, we're not each other's favorite person, but he even invited me to participate in one of his PBEMs as thanks for helping with one of his homebrewed races.

And come on... if you want to read through some of my worst flame wars, check out the people I was fighting with. They were all either unreasonable, unable to read /follow simple requests, or they were simply hateful/disrespectful idiots. And frankly, I'm sick and tired of hearing that somebody is a bully when they point out flaws in someone's reasoning. That's as ridiculous as the guy above who is accusing Sigmazero of being "defensive:"

Quote from the above post: "And yes, players that try and control and assert their opinions are bullies no matter how well intended they think they are being."
LMAO. Basically it only applies to people who are asserting their opinions contrary to YOURS you mean. You can assert your opinions all you like, that's ok, but Sigma's opinions shouldn't be shared. Uh-huh. You're a hypocrite. Grow some thicker skin, people! If you don't want your precious opinions burst, either get better opinions, or write in the original post that you aren't looking for a debate.

You know how Blarknob introduced himself to the community? With a post that included this direct quote:

"I want to play twilight imperium not some dudes homebrew twilight that takes place in the Krull universe or something and has 8 million goofy little rules to go with it."

To which one of our nicer forum members replied, "Would all those extra players we would recruit be as diplomatic as yourself?"

And I'm supposed to be to be nice to this guy? Get real. As much as the fanboys and apologists here claim to dislike me and some of the other older members... believe me, I'm happy I don't have to read your whiny crap on a regular basis, either.

(Perfect example of an annoying problem with this forum ... every time I hit 'return,' the screen position resets itself if I have scrolled up or down. It's driving me crazy )

It was a rare post that wasn't dominated by PsiComa or Mike_Evans for example and while I think they were probobly considerably more mature then other posters, I always felt it was pretty presumptious of them to assume that every single post required their opionion and blessing. Rarely did discussion take place which they didn't derail through rapid posting, I mean go to the Wiki forums now, you'll be hard pressed to find a post with either of them all over it steering the conversation.

Go over to the Wiki forums right now. Right. Now. Of the 20 topics on the first page, I believe I have posted in only 6, and most of those only once or twice. There's a little bit of negativity in one or two posts from the last week, but otherwise it's pretty straightforward stuff. And I'm sorry that you don't like the frequency of my posts. And where do you get off telling other people that I feel every post requires my blessing? Are you my BFF? Do you live in my house? You can talk crap about me when you think I'm not listening, but if I do something that isn't sweetness and light I'm the jerk. If you're going to act holier than me, perhaps you'd better walk the walk?

I mean its the first time I feel like I can participate in discussions without the fear of getting cursed at because I disagree with someone.

Sorry, but based on the behavior I've seen out of you from reading these forums for 30 minutes, I think this is your problem, not anyone else's. Take another thread on the first page, the discussion about whether fighters should be considered ships (for objectives and the like). You are accusing people of being hostile to you, yet for the life of me, I can't find any offending behavior. To me, it looks like you feel overwhelmed when people post a huge amount of information in an attempt to challenge your opinion, and you interpret this as hostility. However, the only person being defensive in that situation is you.

Everybody has opinions. Everybody has a right to their opinion. But if you're going to post on a public forum and present that opinion, you should expect to have those opinions challenged. If you get flustered every time somebody disagrees with you or worse, has a point when they do so, you're going to be very unhappy. I took a break for a few months at one point and it helped me gain a little perspective. Somebody sent me a PM and assured me that even though I may never change the minds of those with whom I debate, there are people reading my posts who haven't made up their minds yet. They can still be influenced. Once I realized that all those "pointless" debates weren't totally pointless, it became easier to tolerate a dissenting opinion. Perhaps such advice will help you as well. Make your arguments, and let your readers decide for themselves.

Mike_Evans said:

I'm not sure what point your trying to make Mike, are you saying that you don't post that often? That you don't dominate the forums with 'excessive opinions´" which you claim that and I quote from this very forum that "Sure, I'm opinionated. I'll stop being that way when I stop being right so often.". Mike, guys like you and a lot of the other vets treated the old forum as you now treat the Wiki forum as your personal E-mail box, you see every post an an email to you directly to which you either reply or ignore. I'm here to tell you my friend that your a spammer and I just wish their was a spam blocker that I could place on some of your 'right' opinions. No offensive but I think your pretty full of yourself and believe me it comes across quite loud and clear.

This forum is about 'everyones' opinions, not just the so called 'Real' community.

Mike_Evans said:

mean its the first time I feel like I can participate in discussions without the fear of getting cursed at because I disagree with someone.

Sorry, but based on the behavior I've seen out of you from reading these forums for 30 minutes, I think this is your problem, not anyone else's. Take another thread on the first page, the discussion about whether fighters should be considered ships (for objectives and the like). You are accusing people of being hostile to you, yet for the life of me, I can't find any offending behavior. To me, it looks like you feel overwhelmed when people post a huge amount of information in an attempt to challenge your opinion, and you interpret this as hostility. However, the only person being defensive in that situation is you.

Everybody has opinions. Everybody has a right to their opinion. But if you're going to post on a public forum and present that opinion, you should expect to have those opinions challenged. If you get flustered every time somebody disagrees with you or worse, has a point when they do so, you're going to be very unhappy. I took a break for a few months at one point and it helped me gain a little perspective. Somebody sent me a PM and assured me that even though I may never change the minds of those with whom I debate, there are people reading my posts who haven't made up their minds yet. They can still be influenced. Once I realized that all those "pointless" debates weren't totally pointless, it became easier to tolerate a dissenting opinion. Perhaps such advice will help you as well. Make your arguments, and let your readers decide for themselves.

You are correct to some degree here, I'm definitly a bit paranoid but it has very little to do with having my opinion challenged. You gotta understand Mike that while you might not see anything wrong with the way you guys treat the forum, that doesn't mean there is nothing wrong, i just means you don't think so. I can promise you that if you took your behavior on the old forums and put them on any other forum where there is even the slightest bit of moderation you would have been banned a long time ago, as would many of the vets. My sensitivity stems from the fact that this forum was once a real low place to hang out and have discussion because frankly so man of the vets lowered the bar of the discussions.

I'll say it again, if you guys think the real community is over at Wiki, all I can say to you is.... Good Bye..

I think some players love a game so much it almost becomes a major part of their life. That's not necessairly a bad thing but it means they cant always see the woods for the trees sometimes and become highly assertive as self appointed experts who hold some exclusive rights over the game. Thats great when players need help but sometimes it goes too far. There's a difference from helping and giving an opinion to asserting that only your opinion is right.

Im making one simple assertion thats obvious to me. As a new comer to these boards I was unpleasently suprised by the tone of some posts here and Im not one bit suprised by some of the replies I received. It would put me off going anywhere near the wiki for a start. In fact it did pretty fast so I said so. Take that as you want, it does not matter to me at all ill continue doing FTF.

I suspect no one has been pulled up on this before as its simply not worth the effort.

Winning an internet discussion is like winning the goldmedal at the Paralympics. You may have won, but you're still retarded.

So, after some senseless spam: I have to give Halffinger the right about the title of this thread. It was...not good chosen by MOther, for which he appologied in some of the first posts here. This was one of the first posts opened here after they announced they kill our beloved old forums. Perhaps this explanation helps to cool down a bit.

Regarding the "I paid money for it": nowhere on the boxes is written that the forum is included. They just writen "check out our HP with tons of cool features", which is more or less the same. And yet, of course they don't have any obligation to provide functional forums. They could just let it be. But something tells me that they will sell less games then and have some really pissed costumers, when rule questions come up (I know, that happens only a very FEW TIMES with FFG products, due to the simplicity of their rules ^^), and we want prevent that. We LOVE FFG games, or we wouldn't buy so much of them. If the games were sh*tty, I wouldn't give a fart about the forums. But the games are great, and so I care about the community and such. And if the forums don't provide that I complain. That's patriotism towards FFG.

I did not come here to win any argument or discussion. There is no winning or losing, just getting on with a game players enjoy and keeping a nice atmosphere.

I love it, I just love it. I point out proof to you that I don't spam the boards. So then you tell me that by ignoring posts, I'm just as guilty. I'd include one of those "rolling eye" smilies except this horrible excuse for a forum doesn't provide that option. Oh, and I'm tired of hearing all of the "some veterans." Grow a pair and name names, otherwise all your complaining is vague generalization. You mention me and Psi. Who else? Beren? Since it's apparently a widespread problem, surely you can give me three other names of people who have pushed people around? I bet you can't do it.

BigKahuna, when you can be better than me and not write things about me when you think I'm not reading them, then you can feel like you're a nicer person than me. But really you're just a big, oversensitive hypocrite. (I like how you conveniently neglected to explain yourself for that, btw). So hey, If you want to curl into a fetal ball and suck your thumb in an environment where your posts are treated like the special snowflakes they are, have at it, my friend. But I gotta say, it's been a long while since I've seen anyone as whiny and protective of their " pwecious feewings " as you. Pathetic.

Hmm, interesting. I was just curious to see what the PBeM forum here was like (hadn't checked in for a month or so). The results were interesting.

THERE ARE NO ACTIVE PBEMS HERE ON THE FFG FORUM!!!!

This, in and of itself, should be telling in terms of what this forum lacks. On the old FFG forums, a special TI3 PBeM forum was created simply to keep the sheer volume of PBeM games from drowning out the threads in the main TI3 forum. That forum was hopping, as new PBeMs were starting all the time.

Here? Not so much. Is it because the PBeM people stopped playing? Heck, no. They moved to another forum. Why? Simply because PBeMs require a certain level of functionality: Specifically PM ability and Editing capabilities. You can't find that here.

So, in a literal sense, it IS partly true that the so-called "real TI3 Community" IS at the Wiki, in a way - only because the wiki supports PBeM games, whereas the FFG forums just can't handle them. The PBeM subforum may as well be removed, as it's not used here.

If FFG fixed the problems with the forum, would people start playing PBeMs here? Hard to say? It could just be that people have already found that the wiki meets their needs. But it wouldn't hurt to fix them.

So if nothing else, the title/topic of this thread would be more accurate if it read "Find the real TI3 PBeM Community at Wiki" - and that particular statement can be backed up by "fact" in that there are no PBeM's here, and MANY, MANY active PBeM's there. And I don't even see any PBeM recruiting going on in this forum, so really, if someone's interested in playing online, the wiki would definitely be the place to go.

As for Halfinger, all I can say is, I'm sorry you take offense to my complaints about the forum. I can't choose your reaction. I'm not going to stop my vocalization of my frustrations until the source is gone. I trust that a new player can read these threads and decide for themselves if they just want to endure this headache-inducing software, or go to a site where the software works. Or both; nothing says you can't be in both places. Frankly, though, you can only speak for yourself in what "we" sound like. Some players will agree with you, some won't. Let THEM decide for themselves where to go.

Im not really offended, I post in the WOW boards and they are a lot worse than this:)

Im also intentionally aiming at a generic group of you which means some of my comments wont apply and I apologise for that.

I appreciate why you would be mad at these forums as you set up a good vibrant community and then bam, its totally disrupted. In fact Im in the middle of giving Blizzard a very hard time over their dumbing down of the MMORPG World of Warcraft so I know the anger that can be felt when your feel let down.

Its just when I see some posts from a few players that are slaming FFG (and remember many dont see the diference between that and the state of the forums and the lack of PbEM) it gives a very negative light. And when I see some replies which are downright rude I lose total respect for the opinon anyway and stop reading. I have too much to do than waste time reading rants.

I've been popping on and off here for months but I've noticed the atmosphere can be quite nasty and that cant be good for our hobby. In a way its good players have passion for something but that can turn into something bad. I know as Ive ranted myself on the WOW forums and regretted it, I made only enemeies and won no one over in my argument.

Anyway I wish you all luck and remember this is only a game and a hobby to be enyoyed, there is enough stress in life as it is.

Mike_Evans said:

I rest my case , here's your smiley, don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Seriously, I think we've all vented here, and maybe it's time to let this thread cool off for a bit. I agree with Halfinger on one thing - it IS just a game, nothing worth getting angry over. That doesn't mean we can't be passionate about a hobby we love, but sometimes, things just need to cool down a bit.

I'm not going anywhere; I may not come here as often as the other forum, but I still come here. Mike, too, from what I can tell. We're all part of the same overarching community. We won't always get along, but that's just the nature of communities.

Wow..... that was a lot to read through.

For all the crap you guys put us through, we sitll come over here to help answer your rules questions...

Point in case:

Fighters and the 3 ship objective. I could have let people keep playing it wrong. Heck, it would have been easier on me to do so. Unfortunately, I like the game so I want to help when people have rules problems. So, I spend an hour digging around in the rules to come up with an answer and find one.

Now, we all get blasted like this by you guys...

I try to explain why I think SET is not good as it is. It's a fine idea, but it just doesn't work. what happens? BigKahuna goes ape-**** on me. Oh, and I suggest some of you go take a look at list of people who helped to get TI3 playable. It's on your rule book. You might just be surprised at what you find.

Alternative TI3 forum can still be found at:

http://www.ti3wiki.org/forum/YaBB.pl

Note that if you want to access the play by forum area you need to register first.

Theres also a help section where some real standup guys will be happy to help you with rule issues of all kinds

MOther said:

The help section seems to be more geared towards Wiki help than rules help, though; most of the rules discussions take place on the General forum