The wiki hosts internet play, hoards of custom stuff like races, tiles, rules.... Join in !

Just a bump.... the forum at the Wiki is buzzing with good activity!

This forum is new and far from perfect - but I'm happy here for right now.

I find the wiki to be too full of elitist grognards playing their own weird variants that are so different from the original to have lost all relevance.

So enough plugging the wiki already. Thanks.

I agree. The poaching attempts by the wiki enthusiasts are kind of annoying too.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy BOTH forums, and I'd encourage anyone to continue to pimp the wiki. It's a great resource.

What I don't like is the negativity about this forum, and building up the wiki at the expense of this forum. This is where most all of your new players are going to start. It's detrimental to the future of the game to turn off new people by slamming FFG like they don't support players.

Anybody out there ever lost a game piece, then wrote Thadd, and got that piece in 3 days FREE? Try that with the big guys!!! Other companies are glad to SELL you extras.

If you want to make sure TI3 is around for as possible you ought to cut FFG and this forum a little slack. Their trying to make a quality product and a way for players to meet.

There's room for everyone here

4lterego said:

This.

4lterego said:

I'd probably be happier if this forum actually WORKED. No PMS? Problems posting on occasion? The crappiest post editor I've ever seen in a forum?

Yes, some of the wiki people are some of the old guard (for good or ill). But there are quite a few newer players there as well.

If FFG would make any sort of effort to make these forums as good as they were (functionality-wise) before this horrendous switch, there'd probably be less so-called "poaching". But it seems whoever is in charge of web design here doesn't have any desire to make this forum something more than a halfway-useful piece of garbage.

Saying it's "new" is giving them too much credit - it's been about 2 months now and hardly ANY of the major problems have been addressed AT ALL! It's STILL slow and clunkly a lot of the time, none of the functionality that a "real" forum needs is present, and it's still just too flashy.

I come here on occasion, but unlike the old forums, where I loved coming and interacting with other players (new and old), I generally dread coming to these new forums because it's such a pain in the butt to use. Yes, I complain about this a lot, but I complain because the webmasters here seem to be ignoring the problems.

hantei40 said:

Sorry for the double-post; one of the many problems with the editor is it makes quoting multiple people not worth doing in one post.

I won't deny that their Customer Service is top notch. Thaadd especially rocks.

However, this forum is their "face" to the new gamers. And while I understand there's a learning curve for creating new software, it's becoming increasingly evident that there is no desire to "fix" these problems. This is NOT a "quality product", and is far below the standards of FFG's outstanding games. The old forum, while maybe less "flashy", was far more usable. This was a significant step backwards. And yes, I will bash it, because I'm extremely disappointed that the FFG folks can be so bipolar - excellent customer service in terms of supporting and replacing the games themselves, but so far it's been one of the WORST in addressing problems with their online presence.

If FFG wants me to be happier with this forum, my recommendation would be to FIRE Edge Studios (a company that I would never use, based on this piece-of-garbage attempt, if I ever had a need for a third-party developer), and either find a worthwhile developer who knows what they are doing, or spend some extra time/money to get everything with this site working the way it should be. At 2 months out, there is NO excuse as to why this forum should be such a chore to use.

sigmazero13 said:

That's a fair criticism targeted at the ineffectiveness of the current forum system and the vendor that created it. It probably is too much pretty and not enough function for the users.

So slam the forum function if you feel it's right, but please don't create the impression that FFG doesn't care about thier players when they are responsive overall.

(not you personally Sigmazero - I have tons of respect for you and others and your opinions. I have appreciated and benefited from your advice)

So that said I just hope that BOTH forums can flourish, independently and interdependently.

Guys may I suggest we agree on expressing our sincere hope both forums will thrive

Anyone heard if FFG plan having private-mail function on this forum?

I will stop complaining about the forums when they become fully functional. PBEMs without PM function don't work very well. At all. Picking up the pieces after, what, 3 or 4 spontaneous forum holocausts has given me sufficient cause to be grumpy as well.

Btw, those "grognards" with extra rules variants were the foundation of much of the Shattered Empire expansion. Before Corey was hired as an author, he posted his idea for Artifacts on the site. Keep that in mind before you disrespect them.

I checked in a couple of days ago and have heard nothing as yet about PM. I figured after my last post I should find out those who have been asking for it since November are experiencing response wise before I make other remarks about the responsiveness (walk a mile in your digital shoes, if you will.)

I have yet to ever play a PBF so I guess I don't quite get the the importance of PM.

As a long time lurker of these boards I find the attitude of some players against a company that is providing a free service, the forums, amazing. I know where I wont be going for any online game I play.

I think some assume they own the game and have some special rights, well they dont. You bought the game not the right to anything else.

How arrogant saying 'the real community'

Sorry I had to say this but please stay there if your not happy with this site. It looks terrible for new players joining.

We are all grateful for FFG's service. But the forums are not a one-way-street; FFG profits from them, too. And these forums just are not good, and the continuing change policy isn't either. Three forums in nearly a year, without taking the old posts with you, is really annoying, especially when you are such an active community like the one for TI3. If you have a look at the Wiki forums you will see much, much, much material like additional tiles, rules, rule discussions and such. All this stuff vanished every time when FFG changed the forum; hours of work for naught. You can't blame us if we don't want to put more work in here just to see the forums move and all the work undone within the next half year.

But I apologize on behalf of me and the others of the arrogant attidue. That was mainly in the beginning of this forums, when they were even more crappier than now with brutal lags. As you can read in the thread, we are getting softer And we still post here. But if you want additonal stuff like hexes, cards, techs and rules, the big discussion of the metagame - they're in the Wiki. Here we will discuss short things and answer rule questions, but don't put our heart's blood in.

Halfinger said:

Frankly, I think you are missing the point. I love FFG as a company. I detest these so-called "forums" for being worthless, because, if you have been a lurker for any length of time, you'd know that these forums are SEVERELY lacking in functionality compared to the old ones.

The community is not some arbitrary forum where people gather - it's the PEOPLE WHO GATHER that make the community.

I realize the forum is free. But if their goal was to make a place where people WANT to come to talk about the games they love, I think it behooves them to make it worthwhile to go to that place. On many levels, this new forum has failed that goal, as it's a burden to post, a burden to edit, impossible to PM, and overall a pain in the rear to use.

When they say it's the "real community", they aren't saying the PEOPLE here are worthless, but rather, the forum software at ti3wiki.org is MUCH easier to use, MUCH more stable, and as such, is a place where the former core of the TI3 community has migrated to. Some of them still come here, but if the community is the PEOPLE, then the ti3wiki "community" is just as real (if not moreso) than this one.

Frankly, it's just as arrogant to say that THIS forum is more important than people's feelings simply because it's the "official" forum. Official forum or not, this forum is an utter piece of software garbage, and I'm wondering how Edge Studios (the company that apparently created it) stays in business. I'm not the ultimate web guru, but I am very adept at web programming, and if I'd produced something like this at my job, I'd have been fired - this is NOT an "easy to use" forum by any stretch.

Halfinger said:

So? If the FFG folks are that worried about the people who've been playing the game for a long time complaining about the lack of functionality on their razzle-dazzle new forum, perhaps instead of silencing the whiners, they should FIX THE PROBLEM? Or is that too much to ask.

I love FFG as a company. When I see a game made by them, I almost always take a look at it to see if it's one I'd like (most other companies, it has to really stand out for me to take a look). They have GREAT customer service regarding their games, replacing lost parts, etc. However, for whatever reason, they seem to either not care or not notice the people who are having major problems with their forum. In the past, there have been forum crashes. People have been upset, but generally people have gotten over it? Why? Because after the fixes, the forums were still "functional". Now, with this forum change, all the major features that people liked have been eliminated. People are frustrated that there seems to be no intent on even making these functions work. Sure, it's a free thing FFG provides, but if FFG is lacking in WHAT they provide, it's reasonable for fans (who DO like the game) to create a competing "free" product, and in this case, that "competing" product is of better quality functionally, even if it's not as "flashy" as this one.

So if you want to lump ALL of us who prefer the TI3WIKI forum over this one as "arrogant" and "elite", go ahead. By telling people to stay away from here, though, makes you just as arrogant as you claim others to be. And the reasoning for "it looks terrible for new players joining"? So? Are you saying that a new player will be scared away because people hate the forum here? I don't think so. I think more new users may be turned away from the forum simply because it's a pain in the butt to use than people being turned away because people are complaining.

Before you start making claims against who is arrogant and who is not, you may want to examine your own attitude towards those who've been in the community for awhile. Sure, those who've been here for longer aren't any "better" than those who are new; I certainly don't claim to be. And new blood is certainly important. But to shun the old guard in favor of the new? That's not a good sign. I used to play a game called Mage Knight, by WizKids. I started playing in what people called the 1.0-era, but near the end. When the rules were drastically revamped to what was dubbed 2.0, there was a lot of complaining. I was one who tried to enjoy people on both sides, but the company more and more started ignoring the "old guard" of 1.0, and focusing only on 2.0. While I personally preferred the 2.0 rules, their utter disregard for the old guard drove many of them away... and eventually, the game withered and died, as this trend continued with new releases. I really liked the people at WizKids, as I worked as a volunteer with them for awhile, but I think they could have better handled this transition - and ignoring the old guard's complaints was not the answer. I don't want to see the same thing happen with TI3/FFG. There is so much potential for these forums, if they could only just listen to those of us who've been around to "fix" what we see as major flaws with the forum software, it would be a great place to be. Now, it's simply OK for occasional chats, but severely lacking for any serious PBeM action, customization, and other things that made the PREVIOUS software infinitely better than this one RIGHT NOW.

I hope that makes sense. Long post, long rant. I apologize if I've offended, but I just think you're missing the whole point of the complaining here.

If you have an issue with FFG go ahead and mail them, phone them or whatever you want but this is a public forum and FFG is a highly respected company known for its excellent service and high quality of product. Its companies like FFG who support this very brittle industry and we need to cut them some slack I think.

I appreciate your very annoyed, Im sure I would be, but after seeing various comments for a few weeks I felt I wanted to post.

I hope your Wiki goes great and Im sure it is great, if you see things from my side of the fence it may be clearer how you appear to come accross.

Even if your fully justified in your comments that wont cut any slack for players new to these Boards.

Anyway best of luck.

It's not my responsibility to keep these forums sanitized for "new players" so they think that the entire FFG community is all happy-hunky-dorey with this piece of junk forum software. If FFG sees the complaints as problems, they can do one of two things:

1) Ban those who complain (thus taking the "low road" and making themselves out to be jerks)

2) FIX the problems.

When the problems are fixed, I'll stop my complaining. In the meantime, while I may not be as "blunt" about the other forum as some, I will say this: If you want an alternative place to discuss this game, the ti3wiki.org forum is functionally superior to this one right now. There's nothing wrong with inviting new players to come there.

In fact, what you seem to be saying, intentionally or not, is that those on fan-made forums should just shut their trap; new users should only be allowed to know about this one, regardless of it's inferiority.

Can this forum be fixed? Absolutely! But in the 2 months+ that this forum has been up, very little has changed for the better.

I'm not about to pander to hypersensitive newbies just to help FFG make a buck. They will get my money for the good games they produce, but I feel I have just as much right to voice my displeasure at this forum software as anything else. I'm not unreasonable - if it's fixed, I'll be happier. But I shouldn't have to keep my grievances private just to make new players think there's nothing wrong.

When you say "cut any slack for new players", what slack exactly do new players need to be cut, anyway? It's not like the invitations to go to ti3wiki are hurting new players. Having other options for community isn't going to drive people away.

This is obviously a problem FFG can do little about, they are not a software developing company so they are without question at the mercy of the people they hired. Now being a software developer myself I can tell you that this forum, while not functional or up to par, is a considerable software achievement and I can understand why FFG was attracted to it. Hopefully this software company can put in some extra man hours and solve some of the problems, most of which I would note as being pretty minor from a technical perspective (obviously they are major from a customer perspective).

At this point though I can tell you that FFG no doubt has a contract with this software company and whether they choose to let them finish fixing it or decide to bail out early and find someone else, they will be paying the contract 100%. There are few developers out there that work any other way then a 'Pay everything up front type contract. Even if the money doesn't always change hands in this way, the contracts are legaly binding and short of fighting a lawsuit they will have to pay for this site. Hence froma business perspective, given the sites attractive nature I would say they should stick it out, fix the problems and try to make amends with the community.

I will also say this about the Wiki community. While perhaps many of the vets moved over there, frankly I can't say I miss them all that much. A lot of those guys where quite brutal and pretty arogant on the forums and they often talked down on people like they owned the place. I along with a lot of guys on this forum was cursed out with regularity because I dared to disagree with some of these pinheads, so frankly good ridens!!

BigKahuna said:

Easy solution. Fire Edge Studios, hire a COMPETENT company who actually responds.

BigKahuna said:

It's flashy. That's about all it has going for it. The old website was much better for what it DOES. (Maybe Edge promised better integration with this site or something, I don't know, but obviously they have fallen short). I'm a developer myself, and I don't disagree that software like this is very complex. But obviously there are MANY forum software packages which do more than this one does, so Edge dropped the ball somewhere. Solution again: Fire Edge Studios, hire a COMPETENT company.

BigKahuna said:

If FFG got worked into a contract where results weren't important, shame on FFG. Any good developer would be willing to put up a "customer satisfaction" clause in the contract so the client gets what they pay for. If not, then good for Edge Studios for scamming FFG into buying this piece of garbage.

BigKahuna said:

I disagree that there are "few developers" who work in anything but a "pay up front" method. On the contrary, from what I can see, it's almost ALWAYS a "pay something up front, pay the rest when it's done" model. That's the smart way to do it - it ensures that the developer is held to some kind of standard and doesn't just throw some piece of junk together. Hmm, maybe FFG *DID* get roped into that. Edge doesn't seem to have done a lick of ANYTHING since the forum was deployed.

BigKahuna said:

Some of them are harsh, yes, but if you treat them with respect (as you should with anyone, to be honest), they usually treat you with respect. That doesn't mean they'll concede their point or come to a compromise. There are a few of them that I *rarely* see eye-to-eye with on various things, but we still get along for the most part because we respect each other's opinions. There have been times where a new player will come in, try to make a change or variant, and get all hyper-defensive when some of the veterans, who may have tried similar variants before, start pointing out flaws. Or someone will make an idea, a veteran will say why they don't like it, and the new player gets all huffy about it and starts trying to control the thread because it's "theirs". Yeah, sometimes there are a few gruff "old guard" people, but sometimes they are treated like they don't know a thing about the game, and they take issue with that and aren't afraid to say so.

I try not to be one of the "gruff ones". But I *DO* take issue with sentiments above like "don't complain here, you may set a bad impression for new players". To which I say "who cares? That's FFGs problem, not mine". FFG is in 100%, complete control of this situation. If they can't get their contracted company to do their job, then lesson learned, fire them, and hire someone who can make it work. The OLD forum worked just fine, except for the stability problem. This forum looks nice, but doesn't "work". I'd rather have an instable, working forum than a stable, useless one.

I will say again what I've said before - It's probably a good thing I'll never have to hire a web company to do a web site for me, or that I'm engaged in any forums where people ask that kind of question, because I would unequivocably tell people to avoid Edge Studio's like the plague for their sorry attempt at making forum software. Yes, it's hard, but there are plenty of examples of it being done successfully! Heck, take a look at BoardGameGeek - that forum was pretty much written FROM SCRATCH by the admin of that site. Yeah, it has it's flaws on occasion, but it WORKS. Edge Studios and FFG have no excuse that I will buy that will explain the crappiness of this forum. All I want is one thing: FIX IT.

For what it's worth, I should point out that I personally DO try to be just as nice to new players as anyone. I try to answer questions where I can. I don't spam people to go to ti3wiki (but will mention it if it's appropriate).

This forum COULD be good, if FFG would get their act together. If they could spend as much effort on this forum as they do on their customer service, this would be one heck of a good forum.

Also, for what it's worth, the old guard here can be much more friendly than the old guard at some forums. I used to frequent one forum in particular where if a new player came and asked a simple question, instead of answering, the old guard would go on a tirade about the search feature, and how dare newbies clutter up their forum with questions that have been asked before. Extremely hostile. The old guard with TI3, as gruff as they (we?) can be sometimes, NEVER did this. If a question was asked that was asked before, it would be answered. Sometimes it would be mentioned that it had been asked before, but never in a way of "idiot, why didn't you search first", but simply to point out it seemed to be a common question.

The butting-heads-with-the-old-guard usually comes when new players try to talk condescendingly to them, or try to make it sound like they know more. The old guard people aren't perfect or omniscient, but they DO have experience, generally, of what may or may not work.

I back Sig's argumentation. Now I'm one of the guys that moved to Wiki, regarding TI3, and I saw two forums before this one. I'm not of the Old Guard, though. I play TI3 since June 2008, which isn't really long, and have seen three forums since, if I recall correctly. But anyway, that's not my point. I wanted to break a lance for the Old Guard, because I never had problems with them. I asked questions and answers were given, never rude. When I started to participate in the mod-business, I was never treated without respect or from above. I fear some sensitive people may get such an impression, but I can understand that if you have to read another "great idea" of some newcomer that you posted some four years ago and since then continually improved, you don't want to discuss every detail but you just tell him that you worked out something similar. That may become something rude, but with a bit of understanding for each other that shan't be a problem.

So which one of you volunteers to pay for the forum to be upgraded?

And 'Find the real TI3 Community at Wiki'

So what does that make the rest of us who wont be there?

Nothing you have done gives you the right to demand something you have not paid for or be rude to anyone here.

sigmazero13 said:

I wish this were true to be honest, I participated in the forums for well over a year and while I was always pretty selective about which discussions I got involved it, I generaly read every post from top to bottom daily. The abuse many of the vets most of which where top posters was very regular and completetly unprovoked. There was a definitive click with a school yard bullies mentalty and because the forums have almost no moderation at all they got away with things that would in most public communities result in suspensions and banning's. It really had nothing to do with people being defensive or protective of their ideas, it was all about really bloated egos. It was a rare post that wasn't dominated by PsiComa or Mike_Evans for example and while I think they were probobly considerably more mature then other posters, I always felt it was pretty presumptious of them to assume that every single post required their opionion and blessing. Rarely did discussion take place which they didn't derail through rapid posting, I mean go to the Wiki forums now, you'll be hard pressed to find a post with either of them all over it steering the conversation.

I guess my point is that while the forums might be less active here and even less functional, I find them to be a pretty big improvement over the wild west it was before everyone moved over so frankly I have no issue with them staying there and leaving this forum to the very interesting discussion that have risen up just in the last couple of weeks. I mean its the first time I feel like I can participate in discussions without the fear of getting cursed at because I disagree with someone.

Halfinger said:

We didn't "pay" to get the forum "upgraded" from the old, WORKING forum to this piece of junk. Are you saying we should pay to have them put it back the way it was?

Should we have to pay extra to get something USABLE?

Halfinger said:

Whatever you like. I didn't use the phrase, the OP did. I find the forums there more usable. Beyond that, as long as there are people I can talk to with reasonable discussion, I don't care; I prefer that forum because it works, though.

Halfinger said:

This is a "public" forum. I have the right to "demand" anything I want. And I have not been intentionally rude - just because I have strong distate of these awful forums, doesn't mean I'm being rude to other people. Forceful? Perhaps. Blunt? Perhaps. But I'm not here to down-talk anyone, to be better than anyone. It's the FORUMS I have issues with, not the people here.

And frankly, FFG gets their money from the games I buy. I have paid for plenty of FFGs games. That money goes, in part, to these forums. Thus, even by your argument, I have plenty of "right" to complain about this forum being severely lacking in quality, usability, and functionality.

I'd almost ask "What is FFG paying YOU to play the apologist?", but I won't. Why? Because that's not the kind of people FFG are. In the past forums, when there was something people didn't like, the community responded vocally. Sometimes things changed, sometimes they didn't, but FFG didn't get all defensive and try and hide the complaints. They let their games speak for themselves - excellent games, with excellent customer service backing them, making any FFG purchase from me one of confidence, because if anything is broken, I know I can get it taken care of. I have exactly one major issue with FFG - this awful forum software. Hopefully they will fix it. Thus far, they have not, and thus stems my complaints about it.

TI3Wiki.org works. It may not be as flashy as this forum, but if you want a community where you can effectively play PBeM games, it's head-and-shoulders superior to what this new FFG forum can provide.

Am I going to boycott FFG for any reason? Except for Android, absolutely not (and my reasons for Android is that when this site first went live, there were so many problems that I just got bombarded with Android ads left and right to the point where I got sick of even seeing the cover of it). I will continue to buy their product. I consider myself a fairly "loyal customer". As such, I think that very well GIVES me the so-called "right" to complain about something that I don't like.

If you don't like people complaining, you have the option of either not reading the complaints, or not coming here at all. I have the option of not reading your post, or reading them. I choose to read them, because there's always the chance there's something I may agree with. Thus far, in this thread at least, you seem more devoted to playing apologist and deriding anyone who complains than discussing things in a reasonable manner. I have nothing against you personally. Heck, I don't even know anything about you beyond your screenname. There's no reason that you, me, or anyone has to start getting all hostile towards people for having differing viewpoints. I stand firm in my stance - I have no intention of just going quietly into the night with my complaints. I'm not going to spam every thread with them, because if it's a question about rules, I'm going to answer the question. But when a topic about the forums comes up, you can be sure that I may just pipe in again with my criticism of how we, the customers, have seemingly been IGNORED by our requests to make this forum better.

FFG has a full-time webmaster. They hired a company to build this website. Who's in control of it now, I don't know, but someone has the job to fix it, and at least as it seems so far, nothing has been done to address these problems. We don't need to pay "extra money" to get a forum fixed. Online forums generally don't work that way. FFG has two main options: they can fix their forums, and hopefully keep people from leaving due to the frustrations it provides. Or they can continue to ignore these issues, and watch as people either stop coming here, migrate to other fan-made (free) forums that WORK, and potentially go the way of WizKids (in a worst-case scenario).

If you like the forum as-is, go ahead and keep using them. If I had any ability or way to voluntee to help fix the forums, I'd be glad to. Throwing money at it isn't the issue - FFG has the money to spend already on forum stuff, or they wouldn't have blown a wad of cash for such a major upgrade to begin with. However, being a non-employee, I wouldn't have much chance at all of being allowed to help fix the problems here. All I can do is continue to bring them up - if they think that if they just wait it out, people will get used to it, I think they're going to find that many (most?) of us aren't going to get used to the lack of functionality here.

Paying for a service gives you no right to abuse it. And when I bought the game I didnt see 'Forum included' on the box. Also some of you guys really need to look up what Ad Hominem and Strawman means, you use those techiniques regularly.

If you dont like this site then leave it, simple, and let the rest of us read the forums in peace.

Its a game not life or death. Games are supposed to be pleasurable not the focus of some aggresive postings.

This whole thing makes me wonder if the lack of facilities was intended.

Im telling you straight , once again, and you can take this or not, the attitude of some of the posts here will definately put off players going anywhere near your 'real community' If thats what you want keep going, its not my site and not my problem.

Maybe your passion for the game and your anger at being cut off from a facility you used means you cant see how your actions come accross to others.