How does Prey Upon Doubt (starting Subversive Tactics skill) work against Allies? Can the rebel players choose to suffer 1 strain (which translates in 1 damage for the ally) or does it automatically resolve in the extra evade for the defending figure?

Rebel player chooses to take 1 damage (instead of strain) or resolve with extra evade.

Can you back that up, On board game geek there's a discussion about it that reasons for both sides.

Rebel player chooses to take 1 damage (instead of strain) or resolve with extra evade.

I would disagree. Since you can't choose to suffer strain above endurance and the effective endurance of Allies is 0, Allies should have the automatical evade applied. Same applies to heros at their endurance limit. They can not chose the strain and have to take the evade. This reflects being at full strain against subversive tactics being especially bad, since a surge could help you much more than one strain.

I tried looking it up in the RRG, but didn't get anywhere though, so take my statement with a grain of salt.

Yes, this is exactly the point of the discussion at the BGG forums. One side argues that there is no endurance value on allies, so it's 0 and practically reached, so there is no choice to suffer strain while the other says because there is no endurance, it's not reached and the ally suffers damage instead strain.

I tend to the no endurance = 0 interpretation, but would just love to have an official ruling as it might become important in the future.

I don't see why there should be any big debate. The first rule under Strain in a Campaign says: When a hero suffers strain, place an equal number of strain tokens on his Hero sheet. When any other figure suffers strain, it suffers an equal amount of damage instead.

When any other figure suffers strain, it suffers an equal amount of damage instead.

But you can't choose to suffer more strain than your endurance. Since Allies don't have Endurance, they can't choose to suffer strain. Since Prey upon Doubt specifically says you choose to suffer strain or take an evade, you can't chose to suffer strain as damage (which you can never chose to under other conditions, even on heroes).

Why would allies get a superior option (1 damage against 1 evade) to heroes (who have to take the evade if they are full with strain)?

Also 1 damage is a much milder tax than 1 evade and there is no reason why you would ever want to not take the damage (unless you sit at literally 1 hp) over the evade.

Read the rule again.

"When any other figure suffers strain,..."
Meaning, figures other than heroes CAN suffer strain.

"...it suffers an equal amount of damage instead."
Meaning, when they suffer strain, take damage instead.

Why would allies get a superior option (1 damage against 1 evade) to heroes (who have to take the evade if they are full with strain)?

Also 1 damage is a much milder tax than 1 evade and there is no reason why you would ever want to not take the damage (unless you sit at literally 1 hp) over the evade.

Because that's how the rules read in this specific instance.

Read the rule again.

"When any other figure suffers strain,..."

Meaning, figures other than heroes CAN suffer strain.

"...it suffers an equal amount of damage instead."

Meaning, when they suffer strain, take damage instead.

Why would allies get a superior option (1 damage against 1 evade) to heroes (who have to take the evade if they are full with strain)?

Also 1 damage is a much milder tax than 1 evade and there is no reason why you would ever want to not take the damage (unless you sit at literally 1 hp) over the evade.

Because that's how the rules read in this specific instance.

And we know that in some cases there were mistakes made with heroes and figures and I'm not really sure it's intended that way.

Just curious... what mistakes are you talking about that were made with heroes and figures?

(Unless you're talking about the mistakes already corrected in the FAQ.)

Read the rule again.

"When any other figure suffers strain,..."

Meaning, figures other than heroes CAN suffer strain.

"...it suffers an equal amount of damage instead."

Meaning, when they suffer strain, take damage instead.

You are a bit weak in your argumentation. The argument was never that allies can not suffer Strain at all (converted to damage). They clearly can. The argument is that they can not choose to suffer strain as damage voluntarily. However, you are still right.

RRG p.23

A hero cannot choose to suffer Strain if the amount of Strain he has

suffered would exceed his Endurance. This includes suffering Strain

to gain movement points or using abilities with a Ccost.

This rule specifically refers to heros not being able to choose that.

So by rules written, allies would be able to chose the Strain (converted to damage) over the Evade.

However, this makes Prey upon Doubt significantly weaker on Allies than on heroes (instead of slightly stronger).

I still believe this was not the intention and will send a rules question to FFG accordingly.

I will update here when they answer.

Just curious... what mistakes are you talking about that were made with heroes and figures?

(Unless you're talking about the mistakes already corrected in the FAQ.)

Yes, I was referring to the FAQ corrections.

Read the rule again.

"When any other figure suffers strain,..."

Meaning, figures other than heroes CAN suffer strain.

"...it suffers an equal amount of damage instead."

Meaning, when they suffer strain, take damage instead.

You are a bit weak in your argumentation. The argument was never that allies can not suffer Strain at all (converted to damage). They clearly can. The argument is that they can not choose to suffer strain as damage voluntarily. However, you are still right.

RRG p.23

A hero cannot choose to suffer Strain if the amount of Strain he has

suffered would exceed his Endurance. This includes suffering Strain

to gain movement points or using abilities with a Ccost.

This rule specifically refers to heros not being able to choose that.

So by rules written, allies would be able to chose the Strain (converted to damage) over the Evade.

However, this makes Prey upon Doubt significantly weaker on Allies than on heroes (instead of slightly stronger).

I still believe this was not the intention and will send a rules question to FFG accordingly.

I will update here when they answer.

I already tried myself but my message wasn't accepted. Thank you for asking.

So what is the fix? It would be either:

(A) Let Heroes suffer strain damage on a choice where strain would exceed their Endurance.

(B) All non-Hero figures can never choose to take strain damage and must always choose the alternate choice.

© Leave it as is.

I think © is the more likely choice.

So what is the fix? It would be either:

(A) Let Heroes suffer strain damage on a choice where strain would exceed their Endurance.

(B) All non-Hero figures can never choose to take strain damage and must always choose the alternate choice.

© Leave it as is.

I think © is the more likely choice.

A) Is really bad. Endurance would not mean that much since you can always take damage if you are full on strain. Since most Hero abilities are strong, this would be a noticable buff.

B) The only instance this comes up currently is Prey upon Doubt. Since Ally surges are much more valuable than 1 HP, I would opt for this.

C) With the RAW currently, there is very little incentive to use Prey upon Doubt on an Ally. If you can, you should always target a Hero instead.

We will see when I get an answer, but I think they quite deliberately worded the Strain rules so they will stick to them. I just want to make sure

Read the rule again.

"When any other figure suffers strain,..."

Meaning, figures other than heroes CAN suffer strain.

"...it suffers an equal amount of damage instead."

Meaning, when they suffer strain, take damage instead.

Why would allies get a superior option (1 damage against 1 evade) to heroes (who have to take the evade if they are full with strain)?

Also 1 damage is a much milder tax than 1 evade and there is no reason why you would ever want to not take the damage (unless you sit at literally 1 hp) over the evade.

Because that's how the rules read in this specific instance.

This is the correct interpretation.

The person controlling the ally would choose to take 1 damage(from the strain) or take the evade.

Rebel player chooses to take 1 damage (instead of strain) or resolve with extra evade.

I would disagree. Since you can't choose to suffer strain above endurance and the effective endurance of Allies is 0, Allies should have the automatical evade applied. Same applies to heros at their endurance limit. They can not chose the strain and have to take the evade. This reflects being at full strain against subversive tactics being especially bad, since a surge could help you much more than one strain.

I tried looking it up in the RRG, but didn't get anywhere though, so take my statement with a grain of salt.

Hero's can't choose to suffer strain over endurance, all other figures suffer damage when they would suffer strain.

So in this case, allies would choose 1 damage (choosing strain) or 1 evade.

Rebel player chooses to take 1 damage (instead of strain) or resolve with extra evade.

I would disagree. Since you can't choose to suffer strain above endurance and the effective endurance of Allies is 0, Allies should have the automatical evade applied. Same applies to heros at their endurance limit. They can not chose the strain and have to take the evade. This reflects being at full strain against subversive tactics being especially bad, since a surge could help you much more than one strain.

I tried looking it up in the RRG, but didn't get anywhere though, so take my statement with a grain of salt.

The ruling you are referring to is "Strain in campaign" pg 23 of RRG

"A hero cannot choose to suffer strain if the amount of strain he has suffered would exceed his Endurance. This includes suffering strain to gain movement points or using abilities with a strain cost."

This rule only applies to heroes - not allies. Allies are not heroes.

And since the "Strain" rule pg 23 RRG states

"When any other figure (other than hero) suffers strain, it suffers an equal amount of damage instead."

Its all laid out for you in a single paragraph of the RRG and I honestly don't see where the confusion lies.

Rebel player chooses to take 1 damage (instead of strain) or resolve with extra evade.

I would disagree. Since you can't choose to suffer strain above endurance and the effective endurance of Allies is 0, Allies should have the automatical evade applied. Same applies to heros at their endurance limit. They can not chose the strain and have to take the evade. This reflects being at full strain against subversive tactics being especially bad, since a surge could help you much more than one strain.

I tried looking it up in the RRG, but didn't get anywhere though, so take my statement with a grain of salt.

The ruling you are referring to is "Strain in campaign" pg 23 of RRG

"A hero cannot choose to suffer strain if the amount of strain he has suffered would exceed his Endurance. This includes suffering strain to gain movement points or using abilities with a strain cost."

This rule only applies to heroes - not allies. Allies are not heroes.

And since the "Strain" rule pg 23 RRG states

"When any other figure (other than hero) suffers strain, it suffers an equal amount of damage instead."

Its all laid out for you in a single paragraph of the RRG and I honestly don't see where the confusion lies.

I already quoted the relevant part of the RRG a few posts up, but thanks

Meanwhile I got a response back from FFG:

Hi Stephan,

The restriction on optionally suffering strain is only on heroes who have maxed out their Endurance stat so an ally could choose to suffer the strain for Prey Upon Doubt and take it as damage.

Thanks!

Paul Winchester

Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

So not being able to chose to suffer Strain is limited to heros and this is not an oversight in the RRG. And Prey upon Doubt really is weaker against Allies than against Heroes.

Thank you.

I don't like the ruling, but now I'm sure that it's intended that way.

So if you use it against a hero who has max endurance already the hero cannot convert the strain to damage?

So if you use it against a hero who has max endurance already the hero cannot convert the strain to damage?

Yes. Heros can never chose to suffer strain when they are maxed out on it. Same concept applies to suffering strain to move a space which is also not possible if the hero is maxed out on strain.

So if you use it against a hero who has max endurance already the hero cannot convert the strain to damage?

Yes. Heros can never chose to suffer strain when they are maxed out on it. Same concept applies to suffering strain to move a space which is also not possible if the hero is maxed out on strain.

So it's only when it's NONE-optional strain that heroes convert into damage?

Just wanna be 100%

So if you use it against a hero who has max endurance already the hero cannot convert the strain to damage?

Yes. Heros can never chose to suffer strain when they are maxed out on it. Same concept applies to suffering strain to move a space which is also not possible if the hero is maxed out on strain.

So it's only when it's NONE-optional strain that heroes convert into damage?

Just wanna be 100%

Yes. Heros need to be forced to suffer a strain to take damage from that strain.