So, has anyone else noticed how selfish the rebel aces are in this game. Not one of them helps their fellow pilots.

Rebels:

Luke: I get to shoot through shields

Wedge: I get to roll extra attack dice

Dutch: I get to deal an extra damage, or prevent an opponent from shooting

Tycho: I get to ignore engagement rules

Farlander: I get to re-roll anti-ship dice

Or a more succinct summary, Imperials have area of effect abilities, rebels do not. Here are some much more interesting area of effect rebel abilities:

Tycho: Friendly squadrons in range 1 with the "Counter" ability are not affected by the "Escort" targeting requirement.

Farlander: Friendly squadrons in range 1 can re-roll their antiship dice if the target section has no shields.

Wedge: Frinedly squadrons in range 1 can add two attack dice to their roll if the target has already activated this round.

And there we have some truly awesome special abilities.

Oh come now, you know how Rebel heroes don't like to share the limelight with nameless underlings. After all, where's the medal for that wookie for destroying the Death Star? Rebel heroes have always had it out for themselves. Didn't Han take the princess away from the Rebel alliance so he could go off and be a hero?

It is an interesting inversion of X-Wing mechanics isnt it? Most Imperial pilots there are not synergistic with their abilities... Howlrunner I think is the only exception. Meanwhile the likes of Garvin and Dutch are designed to work with other fighters present.

I think on the strategic scale it shows that Rebel Heroes are more effective because they are Heroes, but for the Empire to succeed they need to operate as a group. Their employers stick them in cheap, expendable starfighters that outnumber the enemy but only manage to equal their combat power. Seems to me the easiest way to prevail there is teamwork, and that's what helps the Empire to win. Heroes are the Rebel's thing.

uh...Mauler doesn't "help" kill ****, he just kills them. Anything with an anti-squadron value can "help kill enemy squadrons"

Vader's is the just as selfish as the x-wing aces who also have escort

Soontir also doesn't actively protect anyone, he just provides incentive to attack him instead of them. In a way, Dutch actually does more to actively protect his squaddies by shutting enemies down and stopping them from attacking entirely.

Really, it's only Howlie and Rhymer that have any kind of support ability

Otherwise yeah, the rebel aces are heroes and will thus have a more personal impact on the game. Likewise, the super awesome anti-heroes ala Vader do the same.

You tout Vader as an escort but ignore Luke and Wedge's escort ability?

And Dutch certainly helps the team by preventing an attacker from even having a turn in the first place.

I doubt being deeply dissapointed is the right wording here. When I first jumped into the thread I thought there would be direct case and point as to why Rebel Aces was busted. Not that Rebel Aces aren't all friends and hold hands while attacking the enemy. A decent read, sure. Your points, I disagree with.

Maybe the extra attack dice is not due to Wedge's own combat abilities, but due to him supporting the other X-wings in his squad allowing those to output that extra dice?

Perhaps a simpler way to say it is I would have preferred at least one Rebel ace have an area of effect ability.

And soontir'a ability is the real escort ability, as it works very similar to real life. You either choose to fight me in my space/ air superiority fighter, or you attack the bombers I am with and I get to line up shots on you.

Maybe the extra attack dice is not due to Wedge's own combat abilities, but due to him supporting the other X-wings in his squad allowing those to output that extra dice?

https://youtu.be/2WBG2rJZGW8?t=320

Wedge is a team player

The core problem I have with Dutch's ability is that Dutch is a heavy bomber. His ability really should boost bombing attacks. If yu are using a bomber to shoot at fighters, you did something wrong.

And yes, I understand that Dutch is using his ion cannon... But why is Dutches squadron the only Y wing squadron with ion cannons?

Dutch + Wedge yeah

The core problem I have with Dutch's ability is that Dutch is a heavy bomber. His ability really should boost bombing attacks. If yu are using a bomber to shoot at fighters, you did something wrong.

And yes, I understand that Dutch is using his ion cannon... But why is Dutches squadron the only Y wing squadron with ion cannons?

If you are using a bomber to shoot at fighters, you are using the X-wing

but seriously, that line of thinking is really missing the point on Dutch and most of the rebel squadrons in general (generic Y-wing is a bit of a specialist, though). You pay for the added flexibility while keeping the same black die of damage (plus bomber keyword), which lets you both adapt to and engineer a variety of scenarios without having to invest in other game pieces.

Flexibility is a strength, and one that the rebellion emphasizes across its other ships while the empire is largely specialized (except Vader, he doesn't give a **** about anyone)

Imo rebel fighters are just superior in general.

Imo rebel fighters are just superior in general.

I disagree. Between the Soontir Escort Combo, and Rhymer's sniping ability(And the fact you can fit 9 fighters with those two aces into 300 point build) I think Imperials can make much better use of their fighters.

Imo rebel fighters are just superior in general.

obligatory

(I'm just going to say they're about even until I actually get to play with all the new goodies )

my playstyle definitely aligns more with the rebs, though. I've always been drawn to jack-of-all-trades because they lead to varied encounters and encourage some thinking to get to most out of them. Then again, you get enough Tie Fighters and they'll take on anything you could wish for

Imo rebel fighters are just superior in general.

I disagree. Between the Soontir Escort Combo, and Rhymer's sniping ability(And the fact you can fit 9 fighters with those two aces into 300 point build) I think Imperials can make much better use of their fighters.

It's possible perhaps, but also expensive. Basic rebel X-Wings are Versatile, Very Strong, and most importantly, abundant. Even if you only have 1 core set and the Rebel Squadron Pack, you will have 6 X-Wings available, vs having only 2 of everything else. TIE Advanced and Interceptors may be great, but you'll need to fork over a bunch of cash to really make a significant build out of it.

Imo rebel fighters are just superior in general.

I disagree. Between the Soontir Escort Combo, and Rhymer's sniping ability(And the fact you can fit 9 fighters with those two aces into 300 point build) I think Imperials can make much better use of their fighters.

It's possible perhaps, but also expensive. Basic rebel X-Wings are Versatile, Very Strong, and most importantly, abundant. Even if you only have 1 core set and the Rebel Squadron Pack, you will have 6 X-Wings available, vs having only 2 of everything else. TIE Advanced and Interceptors may be great, but you'll need to fork over a bunch of cash to really make a significant build out of it.

Soontir

Two Advanced's

4 Ties

Rhymer

1 Bomber.

All from one Imperial pack and the core.

I like the depictions of the two side. They have a well themed asymmetric design for the two factions.

Imo rebel fighters are just superior in general.

I disagree. Between the Soontir Escort Combo, and Rhymer's sniping ability(And the fact you can fit 9 fighters with those two aces into 300 point build) I think Imperials can make much better use of their fighters.

In all reality, rebel fighter are superior, but they do cost more as well so while imps are more efficient they are not superior...

that said I am going to enjoy blasting the crao out of x-wings with my ties

Imo rebel fighters are just superior in general.

I disagree. Between the Soontir Escort Combo, and Rhymer's sniping ability(And the fact you can fit 9 fighters with those two aces into 300 point build) I think Imperials can make much better use of their fighters.

In all reality, rebel fighter are superior, but they do cost more as well so while imps are more efficient they are not superior...

that said I am going to enjoy blasting the crao out of x-wings with my ties

Take X-Wings vs Ties.

8 X-Wings fire 32 anti fighter dice. They have 40 hull.

13 Ties(Same cost) fire 39 anti-Fighter dice that thanks to swarm will be much more damaging. And they have 39 hull. So 1 Less hull versus 7 more anti ship dice that are also superior. And an extra 5 anti ship dice in the mix, which is more efficient than Bomber makes the X-Wings, if only marginally and slightly to taste.

(In order to accurately compare I had to go over 100, but that's not really the point)

The focused nature of imperial ships makes them better. Efficiency is the definition of better.

Y-Wings would be better than bombers if it weren't for Rhymer being insane. If the Rebels had Rhymer they would be vastly superior. Bjt as is, the Imperials have more devastating aces and more cost efficient ships.)

Rebel Fighters are better stand alone fighters. If you need just a single fighter to tie up a bunch of ties (har har), a single X-Wing can hold it's own against three tie fighters, at least for a couple of rounds, depending on who fires first. All Imperial fighters *depend* on grouping up to be effective, with the exception of Vader. A tie fighter by itself is useless. Hence, the heroes reflect that.

Imo rebel fighters are just superior in general.

I disagree. Between the Soontir Escort Combo, and Rhymer's sniping ability(And the fact you can fit 9 fighters with those two aces into 300 point build) I think Imperials can make much better use of their fighters.

In all reality, rebel fighter are superior, but they do cost more as well so while imps are more efficient they are not superior...

that said I am going to enjoy blasting the crao out of x-wings with my ties

Individual superiority doesn't mean much.

Take X-Wings vs Ties.

8 X-Wings fire 32 anti fighter dice. They have 40 hull.

13 Ties(Same cost) fire 39 anti-Fighter dice that thanks to swarm will be much more damaging. And they have 39 hull. So 1 Less hull versus 7 more anti ship dice that are also superior. And an extra 5 anti ship dice in the mix, which is more efficient than Bomber makes the X-Wings, if only marginally and slightly to taste.

(In order to accurately compare I had to go over 100, but that's not really the point)

The focused nature of imperial ships makes them better. Efficiency is the definition of better.

Y-Wings would be better than bombers if it weren't for Rhymer being insane. If the Rebels had Rhymer they would be vastly superior. Bjt as is, the Imperials have more devastating aces and more cost efficient ships.)

Also aside from these type of discussions I expect most fighter engagements will not be isolated, there will be other fighters and ship anti-squadron fire to contend with.

Rebel Fighters are better stand alone fighters. If you need just a single fighter to tie up a bunch of ties (har har), a single X-Wing can hold it's own against three tie fighters, at least for a couple of rounds, depending on who fires first. All Imperial fighters *depend* on grouping up to be effective, with the exception of Vader. A tie fighter by itself is useless. Hence, the heroes reflect that.

Right now the only Rebel fightees I like the style of are A-Wings. The Y-Wings don't bring enough firepower. The B-Wings are too slow. And the X-Wings have nothing worth escorting. The extra durability can be nice. It gives A-Wings an advantage against Interceptors. And Y-Wings are tanky as hell. But I think an Imperial Squadron heavy list beats a rebel Squadron Heavy list. And I think squadrons will decide more games than ships.(In the sense that Squadron Commands are the best way to boost firepower and score points in many fights.)

To the above.

Mathematical efficiency still decides who has the burden of the work. In this case the X-Wings have to work harder to do as much. They need a better supporting list, or initiative, or something else.

Imperial ships are NOT more efficient in a one to one basis

.

Imperial ships are more efficient in an IDEAL scenario.

The difference is astronomical because the efficiency is not a given, it is entirely gameplay dependent. Tie bombers are crazy against ships and crazy worthless against squadrons for example

Rather than more efficient, I'd say imperials are more accurately high risk high reward. Murdering wedge with some howlrunner ints is a huge reward. Howlrunner intaS getting mulched by capital ship anti squadron batteries...

Is still a huge bonus because ships firing at swuadrons is better than ships shooting at ships.

Points efficiency is always a given. The player with better points efficiency starts at an advantage. Advantage breeds advantage. They aren't 100% win, but they are better off.

I'll put it this way.

Everything else being equal(player skill, mission advantage, etc.) Points efficiency becomes the deciding factor. That's basic knowledge for any game that uses a point value.

There is no "better"

Squadron v squadron results in more death for less but squadrons killing ships has a far greater impact on the game.

And point efficiency is not a given it depends on what you face. Tie ints v ships are garbage for their cost, but v squadrons theyre gold.bombers are the inverse.

The x and a wings are effective in both scenarios and have higher health resulting in much less to fear from cap ships.

This game is far too complex for a simple declaration of one side having it better. Especially when the effectiveness of a squadron varies so wildly, it all comes down entirely to how well the players utilize or counter it.