As written, FSEx/FSEm both provide Force Rating 1, not Force Rating +1. Given this, is it correct to assume that adding one of these specializations to a character that already has a Force Rating doesn't increase their Force Rating? My initial feeling was that it should increase FR regardless, but I found a few instances of people sharing builds that seemed to assume it didn't, so I wanted to check in to see if there's a RAW statement on this subject.

Even if they officially do not stack, would it be especially problematic to allow it, given that the FSE specializations provide no career skills whatsoever? (Certainly, it would be an issue if players were obviously trying to abuse it, especially if they wanted to pick up both FSE specs, but this is fairly straightforward to veto.) This mainly comes up because Sixth Sense appears only in the FaD Hunter spec, and Superior Reflexes is completely absent from the book, but both are excellent Talents for any Force User (and very thematically appropriate as well).

Each tree already has a way to increase FR through the expenditure of EXP, I see no reason to give one away for free. Having two FR is already pretty darn good, three is basically a guarantee that the PC will be able to preform their Powers all the time. There is a reason that it's difficult to raise FR, the same reason it's difficult to raise Attributes after Character Creation.

" Whe a character purchases [Force-Sensitive Emergent] specialization, he automatically receives a Force rating of 1 (if he did not already have it ", AoR page 292.

So if you already have a FR, nothing happens, since it gives you FR1, not +1 FR. If you want to increase your FR, you need to take the Force Rating talent. It's in two of every career's specs in F&D—sometimes twice!—and once in FSEx and FSEm.

To answer your question, by God yes it would be especially problematic to change that rule to give +1 FR. If you want a +1 FR, you take talents to get you there. You take another spec if you want the talents they have, and you spend XP on them like everyone else.

It would be like a non-Force sensitive character buying a new specialization and getting Dedication for free.

-EF

Yeah taking the Spec doesn't automatically up your FR, you gotta buy down to +1FR like everyone else.

Why do you feel you need such easy access to FR2? The system already allows a method to ensure a Force power can always be fired with a minimum of 1 Pip to spend provided you have a DPoint, some Strain and are willing to take a point of conflict.

That's not much of a penalty really, unless you are trying to use the force for everything, or spend your spare time burning down orphanages cause you think they smell like cooking hotdogs (FYI they totally do)....

FSEx and FSEm both give Force Rating 1, they don't up your Force Rating by 1.
So if you already have a Force Rating of 1 because of a F&D starting career or because you already have one of those 2 universal specs, then nothing happens when you get the new one.

Imagine if buying those universal specs gave you +1 Force Rating... I'd take any F&D career, then buy the 2 universal specs for 50xp and BINGO! i've got a 3 Force Rating... that would be way too much overpowered.

Like Ghostofman said, you can always spend a Destiny Point and Strain to get that 1 Force Pip to pull of your powers... Don't make jedi all powerfull... they are fine the way they are now.

The only way to gain a Force Rating higher than 1 is to take the Force Rating talent.

Everyone else has already chimed in, but I want to add that Force Rating is a really big deal. Your average Jedi Knight has around 3, so being able to get that at character creation would be a huge deal

Think of it this way: Exiled and Emergent give no bonus skills (actually false, since they have a Talent which provides Perception and Discipline) in exchange for being Universal (i.e. always counts as from your career). They are IMHO fairly good Specs, since they have quite flexible talents like Intense Focus and the like. On top of it, if you happen to have 0 FR, they set it at 1. This means you can plan in advance and pick a non-Force Spec you like as your first (Sharpshooter, anyone?), then one of these two and benefit from the increased FR (and welcome to Deadly Accuracy for your Lightsaber LOL) This is only an example of how good a Universal Spec can be. No need to add in any extra cheese, really.

Okay, yeah, that's what I thought, but the point here is that it shouldn't be disadvantageous for a FaD character to take a specialization relative to an EotE/AoR character... I really don't give a flip about using the tree to increase the FR, I was just hoping to avoid the process of completely house ruling in career skills for Force Sensitive characters taking the FSE specializations (in place of the FR boost).

In response to the comment about this having to do with them being universal specializations, that is incorrect. Recruit provides career skills (and has multiple talents to add more), so this is solely a matter of making specializations equally viable for everyone (so as not to favor starting in one book versus another). If the FSE specs are actually markedly more powerful, than that's a basic balance issue which would need to be addressed separately.

That said, I'm open to suggestions regarding which career skills would make sense for each of the FSE specs. Discipline and Perception are out, since both trees have a talent to provide those.

In response to the comment about this having to do with them being universal specializations, that is incorrect. Recruit provides career skills (and has multiple talents to add more), so this is solely a matter of making specializations equally viable for everyone (so as not to favor starting in one book versus another). If the FSE specs are actually markedly more powerful, than that's a basic balance issue which would need to be addressed separately.

No, I never said Universal specs give no skills. I said these two give no skills (but they do) in exchange for being universal, having flexible talents and resetting your FR from 0 to 1. Every tree should be looked at as a whole to determine whether is it balanced or not.

As for the usefulness for Force Sensitive characters, well... if it's not useful for you, don't pick it. It is as if I stated that a tree is not balanced because I already have all the bonus skills it grants. In a particular, planned PC build, I would gladly pick Heavy just for Rain of Death, Makashi Duelist just for Resist Disarm or Exile just for Intense Focus. That doesn't make them more powerful, nor does it make other trees less powerful.

That said, I have no suggestions regarding career skills.

The main appeal of Force-Sensitive Emergent and Exile is that, if you're NOT presently a Force-Sensitive character, they are your means of becoming one. Since an EOTE and AOR based character cannot take on a FAD specialisation and expect to gain Force Rating from the off (since the careers grant that, not the individual specialisations), the only real reason to take them (apart from the talents on offer) is to gain a Force Rating.

If you already have Force Rating 1+, then the only real appeal is the talents - which, as stated, are quite nifty.

Okay, yeah, that's what I thought, but the point here is that it shouldn't be disadvantageous for a FaD character to take a specialization relative to an EotE/AoR character... I really don't give a flip about using the tree to increase the FR, I was just hoping to avoid the process of completely house ruling in career skills for Force Sensitive characters taking the FSE specializations (in place of the FR boost).

You *can* avoid it...just don't do it. The disadvantage you perceive just doesn't exist. It would be the same if an EotE character had FSEx, and then took FSEm...they wouldn't get an extra FR because of it. Are they at a disadvantage? No. Likewise, and EotE character who has FSEx won't get an automatic FR boost if they take an F&D tree. No disadvantage there either.

Besides, if somebody feels disadvantaged, they don't have to take those trees, there are plenty of others to choose from...none of which boost FR either. It seems to me somebody really likes what they see in the universal trees and are just trying to see how much more they can wheedle out of it.

Okay, yeah, that's what I thought, but the point here is that it shouldn't be disadvantageous for a FaD character to take a specialization relative to an EotE/AoR character...

Why do you perceive it as disadvantageous?

Are career skills (which your character may already have) that important to you? Why? Are you really planning on buying more then a rank or two in so many skills that you feel you'd be at a disadvantage without them all being career? Do you feel the cost of a universal spec so high that without skills it's overpriced?

The advantage of the unispecs FSEx and FSEm is that they give a non-Force using character access to Force powers. Something taking the specs in F&D does not do for those characters. A Force using character made using a career from F&D just gains the benefit of access to some talents that may be spread around other spec trees and the discount that it is a unispec. They don't need skills to equalize them. Value is always going to be relative to everyone in a different way.

I'm playing an Ataru Striker in a friend's campaign, and I had zero problem with paying the XP to take F/S Emergent but not getting any immediate benefit from doing so. Mostly because of the access to Uncanny Reactions and Uncanny Senses, Toughened and Grit (things that Ataru Striker is woefully lacking), being able to pick up Balance for 5 less XP, as well as a Force Rating talent that I could beeline towards. Plus since the game is set during the Dark Times, talents like Sleight of Mind and Indistinguishable have been handy (along with those Concealing Robes) in making sure that the Empire can't positively identify this "rogue Jedi" that's been showing up.

Force Exile and Emergent both have the benefit of a Force Rating talent that can be obtained without paying the non-career XP cost if the other in-career specs don't match the vision you have for your PC. Much as I love my Ataru Striker, neither Hunter nor Pathfinder fit how I see this character progressing, so my options for additional specs were to either go non-career (which I probably will eventually) or to take Emergent/Exile.

A similar argument for "disadvantageous" could also be made for when a character picks up a new specialization but all the bonus career skills for that new spec are already career skills for the character. In that case, the PC has spent a decent amount of XP, but the only they have to show for is access to a new spec and no additional career skills. Similar argument was made about the Recruit spec in AoR, with talents that a PC needs to take to progress further into the spec, but that some PCs may already have one or both of those combat skills; the way the game works, the PC would still have to pay the XP to buy the talent even if it provides zero benefit to them.

Alright then, let me break this down.

FaD characters receive FR 1, 6 career skills, and 3 skill levels from their career (ignoring specializations because they are inconsistent, and equally inconsistent regardless of which book/career they come from). EotE/AoR characters receive 8 career skills and 4 skill levels from their career. If both a FaD and EotE/AoR character took a FSE spec, then the net result would be the EotE/AoR character having 2 more career skills and 1 additional skill level (which may be worth 10, 20, or 30 XP, depending on the situation). No, this isn't a big deal, and no, it isn't the end of the world. I know that. But there isn't an rational reason for a universal specialization to be explicitly more advantageous for characters from certain books (I'm not talking about build. Build is irrelevant. This is a more basic issue than that), and small details like this bug me. I see no reason not to fix it, so I might as well do so.

The extremely literal way to do so would be to provide 2 career skills and 1 skill level, but that's awkward and inconsistent with the rest of the game, so I decided on giving it the normal specialization benefit of 4 new career skills. And yes, career skills may or may not actually be useful to everyone, but that is universally true of all of the specializations, and it affects everyone equally. What I am addressing here is a specific imbalance that exists between FaD and EotE/AoR characters that have both taken a FSE spec.

And yes, I agree that that the FSE trees are pretty good, but that still isn't a reason to ignore the minor imbalance that I'm talking about. They're pretty good regardless (and still worth taking), but there's no reason that they shouldn't be equally good regardless of which book a character comes from. As for it being equally disadvantageous for EotE/AoR characters that take both FSEx and FSEm, this isn't quite true. The initial imbalance that I mentioned still exists for FaD characters in comparison to EotE/AoR characters, though it is true that taking the second tree would be absolutely neutral and favor neither character. As for the value of specs being relative to the individual, I completely agree, but this isn't a reason to not smooth out any mechanical inconsistencies.

I'd like to reiterate that I don't think this is that big a deal, but that I just see no reason to not address it. I am neither running nor playing a game at this moment, and I posted this solely to address this mechanical oddity of combining characters from the different books.

The whole forest, the trees won't allow you to see.

Alright then, let me break this down.

FaD characters receive FR 1, 6 career skills, and 3 skill levels from their career (ignoring specializations because they are inconsistent, and equally inconsistent regardless of which book/career they come from). EotE/AoR characters receive 8 career skills and 4 skill levels from their career. If both a FaD and EotE/AoR character took a FSE spec, then the net result would be the EotE/AoR character having 2 more career skills and 1 additional skill level (which may be worth 10, 20, or 30 XP, depending on the situation). No, this isn't a big deal, and no, it isn't the end of the world. I know that. But there isn't an rational reason for a universal specialization to be explicitly more advantageous for characters from certain books (I'm not talking about build. Build is irrelevant. This is a more basic issue than that), and small details like this bug me. I see no reason not to fix it, so I might as well do so.

The extremely literal way to do so would be to provide 2 career skills and 1 skill level, but that's awkward and inconsistent with the rest of the game, so I decided on giving it the normal specialization benefit of 4 new career skills. And yes, career skills may or may not actually be useful to everyone, but that is universally true of all of the specializations, and it affects everyone equally. What I am addressing here is a specific imbalance that exists between FaD and EotE/AoR characters that have both taken a FSE spec.

And yes, I agree that that the FSE trees are pretty good, but that still isn't a reason to ignore the minor imbalance that I'm talking about. They're pretty good regardless (and still worth taking), but there's no reason that they shouldn't be equally good regardless of which book a character comes from. As for it being equally disadvantageous for EotE/AoR characters that take both FSEx and FSEm, this isn't quite true. The initial imbalance that I mentioned still exists for FaD characters in comparison to EotE/AoR characters, though it is true that taking the second tree would be absolutely neutral and favor neither character. As for the value of specs being relative to the individual, I completely agree, but this isn't a reason to not smooth out any mechanical inconsistencies.

I'd like to reiterate that I don't think this is that big a deal, but that I just see no reason to not address it. I am neither running nor playing a game at this moment, and I posted this solely to address this mechanical oddity of combining characters from the different books.

I think you're not seeing the big picture here...

If a Bounty Hunter takes FSEx, buying up to Force Rating down the talent tree, he will have a total Force Rating of 2 (FR from unispec + FR from unispec talent tree).

If a Consular takes FSEx, buying up to Force Rating down the talent tree, he will have a total of Force Rating 3 (FR from F&D career + FR from Consular talent tree + FR from unispec talent tree).

Now this is where the big difference is... a jedi with a Force Rating of 3 is pretty powerful and can usually get 3 Force Pip per roll, allowing the player to active the base power plus 2 upgrades. That is huge! Taking the unispec for a F&D career is like taking a shortcut to more Force Rating... taking a short cut means having a setback... in this case, no bonus career skills. Looking at initial investment, it does look like the F&D careers get the shaft if they take the unispecs, but on the long run, they get a huge return on their investment.

Anyway, I don't think your proposed solution would be appropriate... I guess it would make a F&D character more powerful, lessening their main weakness which is less career skills.

Hope it helps.

That assumes that a character who has purchased their way through a FaD spec and a FSE spec is more powerful than a character that has purchased their way through a EotE/AoR spec and a FSE spec. If the game is balanced properly, a maxed consular/FSE should be roughly and abstractly comparable to a maxed bounty hunter/FSE, even though one has higher FR (as the other has different advantages and abilities). If that is not the case, then there is a fundamental balance issue between the trees (or with force users) that needs to be addressed. Again, I'm not concerned about the maximum FR of the character, I'm just comparing the results of taking FSE specs depending on the book you start in.

As for the career skills/skill level adjustment being the balancing factor for FaD characters, that is certainly true, but the price that a EotE/AoR character pays (no career skills from FSE specs) is also applied to FaD characters, which doesn't make sense.

Again, one may end up with a higher FR, but unless force powers are unbalanced in terms of power level, the other character should still be comparable...

I'm not sure why you think they need skills to "balance" them out. They are an option designed for non-Force users. If your intention is to make them more attractive to F&D career/spec characters I don't really see the point. They already have an abundance of specs to choose from that have Force relevance. And if you have Force player characters that want to take them then they are already an attractive option and do not need further benefit.

As it is now they have benefits that do not out weigh other specs. Add skills and you run the risk of making them an "I'd be stupid not to take it" spec.

In essence, the Exile and Emergent really shouldn't be "go to" options for FaD characters. They're an option, and frankly for a Force and Destiny character not necessarily an attractive one. That's the frakking point.

Exile and Emergent were only included so that the folks (like me) that wanted to play Force users would have the chance to do so without having to wait for Force and Destiny to come out.

I took Emergent for my Ataru Striker because of the talents that make him better at not being noticed on top of various other talents to help my character fulfill his role as the party's primary striker (i.e. the guy that hits for a lot of damage), plus I really wanted this guy to get Force Rating 2 so that I could make use of stuff like Hawk-Bat Swoop and Saber Swarm while still being able to employ the Sense power to keep from being too easy of a target (as well as better odds of generating a Despair result so that he can use his Improved Parry talent).

I'm playing a Shii-Cho Knight in a different campaign, and this character has no reason or interest into delving into either Exile or Emergent. If anything, he's probably going to buy into Niman Disciple as his second career to beef up his ranks in Parry and Defensive Training (better chance of generating enough Threat in melee for Improved Parry), pick up some ranks in Reflect, and Discipline as a career skill (already have Perception from my initial career), and then eventually get to Force Rating 2. For that character, there's really not much that Exile or Emergent has to offer.

I was running a Force and Destiny game, and not a single one of the PCs in that group even so much as cast a glance at Exile or Emergent, feeling that the FaD specs in the Beta rulebook covered what each character needed.

This happens in a few instances, and not just for Force Users. You could purchase a spec that gives you career skills that you already have, gaining you much less than someone who has none of them as career skills.

It even happens at the group level. EotE groups can have a ship that costs up to 120k (often they end up with less), where AoR can start with that Lambda shuttle that costs 140k. FaD characters' ship option is only 60k, half that of other groups. On top of that, AoR groups get free stuff in the form of contribution awards, whereas EotE characters start already debt.

Everyone's available choices are not so finely balanced against everyone else's. It all works out in the end, though. That Bounty Hunter that chooses FSE may have a few more career skills than the Ataru Striker that has it, but the F&D character also doesn't have 20 points of Obligation.

I see the FSE specializations as a slightly cheaper way to get an additional Force rating. With the whole ten points cheaper cost. And they have good talents in them. But no I don't see them as a go to spec. for a F&D character.

I see the FSE specializations as a slightly cheaper way to get an additional Force rating. With the whole ten points cheaper cost. And they have good talents in them. But no I don't see them as a go to spec. for a F&D character.

You don't get additional Force rating for taking FSEmergent/FSExile specs. You are grant FR 1 when you take the spec, provided you do not already have a Force Rating. They shouldn't be a go to spec for FaD character.

I see the FSE specializations as a slightly cheaper way to get an additional Force rating. With the whole ten points cheaper cost. And they have good talents in them. But no I don't see them as a go to spec. for a F&D character.

You don't get additional Force rating for taking FSEmergent/FSExile specs. You are grant FR 1 when you take the spec, provided you do not already have a Force Rating. They shouldn't be a go to spec for FaD character.

I think he means the fact that Emergent has a straight shot 75XP path to FR+1 with usable talent in between and is by nature "cheaper" for being a universal tree.

By comparison FSEx and a lot of F&D trees make you dig through several other talents and have that out-of-career tax attached.