With Extra Munitions comming out Munitions are looking much more appealing. However, my primary issue with munitions apart from their cost, which Extra Munitions is intended to mitigate, it their requirement to spend a TL to fire them. We all know how useful having both a Focus and a TL can be. If I am not mistaken it increases the chance to get at least a hit result on each die rolled to about 93.75%. Even just having either a Focus or a TL grants a 75% chance of at least a hit result on each die rolled. However without either modification each die only has a 50-50 chance of rolling a hit or better. It can be tricky to get both, but if you have to spend one to even perform the attack... Well doesn't that rather neuter the attack? By that point you might in some cases be better off doing a Primary Weapon attack and using the TL to boost it than using your Torpedo or Missile. This is particularly true on ships with decent attack power on their Primary like B-wings or X-wings.

So how can we mitigate this? How can we go about ensuring we get sufficient boosts to make the shot worth taking? I have some ideas, but given the sheer number of options out there I am sure others can chime in with more.

One option I have considered for ships with both an Elite Talent and Crew slot is Recon Specialist + Deadeye. This way you get two Focus tokens and may spend one to initiate the attack and the other to modify it. Leaving you just one TL away from really packing a punch. Works great with Nera Dantels.

If you are using X-wings the Torpedo slot is often useless, but but you do have some options here to make it more appealing. Throw Dutch in the Squad and you can use the TL he gives you to pay for the attack while the attacker uses a Focus action to get the Focus token to modify the roll. Throw Deadeye on there and you can use the TL to boost the roll instead (beneficial as TL and Focus both offer the same hit chance, but TL offers a slightly higher critical chance). Though Deadeye might be a waste here as you could only use it's ability once on an X-wing.

The Tie Bomber looks like it will see a lot of benefit from Extra Munitions and I am considering giving them a try because of it, but I am not sure how best to go about trying to boost their rolls. I know Deadeye may prove useful on them, but I don't play Imperials much so I don't know much about the options there.

There is something else to consider here too. If you have a combo that can give you both a TL and Focus to modify your roll with your Torpedo or Missile then what Torpedo or missile would you most want to use with it? Obviously something like Cluster Missiles wouldn't get the most benefit from it as you could only spend them on one of the two attacks unless you split them up and used one for each attack.

Also lastly there are some additional abilities which mitigate the need for one token or the other. If I am not mistaken Horton's ability is like this in that it allows him to reroll blank results thus all you need to put on him is a Focus token which he can use to modify the roll further.

Note: I don't have the cards in front of me ant the moment and am going from memory so if I have misrepresented an ability on a card let me know.

I can see a new title incoming ....

In that 600 point epic game i played recently I gave Jonus and Rhymer 'deadeye'

and then promptly forgot about it all game as i was running off a print out sheet

I remembered right at the end and it actually came in dead useful as obviously you can shoot at anything in your arc, not just the one you're locked on so it opens up the target spectrum massively

I can imagine nera with extra munitions and advanced proton torps to be quite lethal. I usually run her with both advanced and regular protons and i catch no end of peope off guard who forget she's a 'missile turret'. I've never thought of giving her 'deadeye' before though.

Personally i think the best thing they could have done with munitions (and its never going to happen, so its wishful thinking) is that once you are 'locked' they dont have a fire arc, like with real missiles.... or at least made something like an 'advanced homing missile' which ignores firearc, like a mini Nera

Rhymer is the least that would need Deadeye. Its the Scimitar Pilots mostly ... and Gammas next thereafter.

In that 600 point epic game i played recently I gave Jonus and Rhymer 'deadeye'

and then promptly forgot about it all game as i was running off a print out sheet

I remembered right at the end and it actually came in dead useful as obviously you can shoot at anything in your arc, not just the one you're locked on so it opens up the target spectrum massively

I can imagine nera with extra munitions and advanced proton torps to be quite lethal. I usually run her with both advanced and regular protons and i catch no end of peope off guard who forget she's a 'missile turret'. I've never thought of giving her 'deadeye' before though.

Personally i think the best thing they could have done with munitions (and its never going to happen, so its wishful thinking) is that once you are 'locked' they dont have a fire arc, like with real missiles.... or at least made something like an 'advanced homing missile' which ignores firearc, like a mini Nera

You're looking at a 39 point B-Wing for a Nera that can squeeze of a pair of modified APTs using Deadeye (assuming no external source of focus tokens).

Somebody better warn Danny Chris r is after his money!

I think two things need to be done to 'fix' ordnance.

1 - There is no requirement to spend your target lock to fire. You can, of course, only fire at a target that you are locked on to, but firing ordnance does not require you to spend your target lock.

2 - If the ordnance scores any hits (after defence dice are rolled) then add 2 normal hits and two critical hits, then cancel all dice results. We've all played the old computer games, so we all know what it's like shooting someone (or being shot at) with torps or missiles. You duck and weave and spin and twirl trying to get away from the little bastards, and if you escape then you escape, free of harm. But if you don't, then BLAM, you wear it and it HURTS. I think this makes ordnance 'feel' better.

And with regards to (2), there's plenty of room to change the numbers depending on what type of ordnance you're using.

Extra munitions actually makes 2x proton torpedoes cost less than HLC.

Still in a previous thread when comparing the two HLC is still better on the action front and the dice modification front. As someone who just rolled 4 eyeballs with proton torpedoes on Horton, I can tell you the dice still love to screw you if you don't have a target lock.

In that 600 point epic game i played recently I gave Jonus and Rhymer 'deadeye'

and then promptly forgot about it all game as i was running off a print out sheet

I remembered right at the end and it actually came in dead useful as obviously you can shoot at anything in your arc, not just the one you're locked on so it opens up the target spectrum massively

I can imagine nera with extra munitions and advanced proton torps to be quite lethal. I usually run her with both advanced and regular protons and i catch no end of peope off guard who forget she's a 'missile turret'. I've never thought of giving her 'deadeye' before though.

Personally i think the best thing they could have done with munitions (and its never going to happen, so its wishful thinking) is that once you are 'locked' they dont have a fire arc, like with real missiles.... or at least made something like an 'advanced homing missile' which ignores firearc, like a mini Nera

You're looking at a 39 point B-Wing for a Nera that can squeeze of a pair of modified APTs using Deadeye (assuming no external source of focus tokens).

Nera Dantels (26)

Deadeye (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Advanced Proton Torpedoes (6)

Recon Specialist (3)

B-Wing/E2 (1)

Total: 39

I never mentioned e2 or recon specialist so actually it would be 35 points.

Given i normally Nera with

Herself 26

Proton torpedoes 4

Adv Proton torpedoes 6

Munitions failsafe 1

She comes in at 37 points.

I often fly her with Keyan with PTL and a HLC and a single blue squadon as 'bait'

Usually do pretty well with that list and its 98 points

In fairness it usually does well because most people forget its nera and have a 360 ordnance shot so they fly in on a flank and get zapped... first time could be at any range but its usually 2.

I do varients with two regular protorps

But i'm thinking if i added 'deadeye' to nera then shes more flexible by taking focus rather than TL

Dunno, its nearly always worked for me that list. Think i've lost with it twice.

Extra munitions actually makes 2x proton torpedoes cost less than HLC.

Still in a previous thread when comparing the two HLC is still better on the action front and the dice modification front. As someone who just rolled 4 eyeballs with proton torpedoes on Horton, I can tell you the dice still love to screw you if you don't have a target lock.

If you had a Focus token on Horton at the time you wouldn't have needed a TL as spending a Focus changes all focus results to hits. Your roll would have translated to 4 hit results.

In that 600 point epic game i played recently I gave Jonus and Rhymer 'deadeye'

and then promptly forgot about it all game as i was running off a print out sheet

I remembered right at the end and it actually came in dead useful as obviously you can shoot at anything in your arc, not just the one you're locked on so it opens up the target spectrum massively

I can imagine nera with extra munitions and advanced proton torps to be quite lethal. I usually run her with both advanced and regular protons and i catch no end of peope off guard who forget she's a 'missile turret'. I've never thought of giving her 'deadeye' before though.

Personally i think the best thing they could have done with munitions (and its never going to happen, so its wishful thinking) is that once you are 'locked' they dont have a fire arc, like with real missiles.... or at least made something like an 'advanced homing missile' which ignores firearc, like a mini Nera

You're looking at a 39 point B-Wing for a Nera that can squeeze of a pair of modified APTs using Deadeye (assuming no external source of focus tokens).

Nera Dantels (26)

Deadeye (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Advanced Proton Torpedoes (6)

Recon Specialist (3)

B-Wing/E2 (1)

Total: 39

I never mentioned e2 or recon specialist so actually it would be 35 points.

Given i normally Nera with

Herself 26

Proton torpedoes 4

Adv Proton torpedoes 6

Munitions failsafe 1

She comes in at 37 points.

The build I posted wasn't meant to be exactly what you'd mentioned. It was what I'd think you'd want at a minimum if you were going to take APTs with Extra Munitions and plan on using Deadeye to fire them. If you are using a focus to fire your APTs, you'll need a second focus to make it worth firing the APT.

I don't often look at APTs because they are so expensive and have such a restricted range, but looking at them again their ability is really something. Rolling 5 dice and getting to change 3 blanks to focus results pretty much nullifies any need for a TL boost. Honestly I don't even think you need Deadeye to accompany them. PTL may pair better with them as you can take both a focus and a TL while taking a stress then spend the TL to perform the attack and the focus to modify it. Realistically the odds of this not resulting in 5 hit/crit results is astronomical.

The reason I say pair PTL with it instead of Deadeye is because PTL will work better with your primary attacks after the APT has been spent or in the event that you cannot use the APT due to not being in range.

With Extra Munitions on my TIE bombers, I'm almost certainly going to run them alongside Captain Jonus, who allows friendlies at range 1 to reroll two attack dice. Seems like a pretty good way to enhance your damage, and he could even augment his squad by using Squad Leader to give them that focus token. Basic stuff, I know, but it hasn't been mentioned yet.

The trouble is that I don't want to buy three TIE Punisher Expansion Packs just to kit out my TIE bombers -- I think I'd rather fly the punishers:)

However, I do love the idea of two or three Scimitar Squadron Pilots with Proton Bombs and Extra Munitions. That's a whole lot of face-up damage cards you can deal! I think it's going to be my answer for all those pesky B-wings, and they might do a number on big fat turrets if I throw some Ion Pulse Missiles on the bombers, too.

If the fix doesn't address action econ for Low PS ships, I don't even even want to see it.

I don't often look at APTs because they are so expensive and have such a restricted range, but looking at them again their ability is really something. Rolling 5 dice and getting to change 3 blanks to focus results pretty much nullifies any need for a TL boost. Honestly I don't even think you need Deadeye to accompany them. PTL may pair better with them as you can take both a focus and a TL while taking a stress then spend the TL to perform the attack and the focus to modify it. Realistically the odds of this not resulting in 5 hit/crit results is astronomical.

The reason I say pair PTL with it instead of Deadeye is because PTL will work better with your primary attacks after the APT has been spent or in the event that you cannot use the APT due to not being in range.

If the fix doesn't address action econ for Low PS ships, I don't even even want to see it.

I don't think this is another "fix" thread. I think this is a "What tools do we have that make them useful?" thread.

Unfortunately, it's looking like the answer in many cases is pilot ability. Horton Salm, Captain Jonus, Nera Dantels, "Dutch" Vander (to some extent), Colonel Jendon...these pilots have ways of pushing ordnance beyond it's normal performance boundaries. Elite Pilot Talents like Deadeye can help, but they don't do anything for generics that like that slot. I agree that the low Pilot Skill generics still face the dual problem of 1) moving to early to target higher PS ships at range, and 2) having no way to modify the attack roll on many of the missiles and torpedoes we have.

To be fair, it wasn't some Rookie Pilot that blew up the Death Star with a well-place Proton Torpedo -- it was PS 8 Luke Skywalker (probably with Deadeye )!

I jumped the gun there, Para, but I'm just insanely peeved about how **** ordinance is right now. It could have been a such a great equalizer for the <PS pilots who are the best carriers of missiles and torps (they're cheap/expendable). It's too easy to Rule of Eleven them with >PS pilots.

My old strat was to use Vader with Squad Leader but these days, that's a lot of points to sink into an already dicey strategy.

With Extra Munitions on my TIE bombers, I'm almost certainly going to run them alongside Captain Jonus, who allows friendlies at range 1 to reroll two attack dice. Seems like a pretty good way to enhance your damage, and he could even augment his squad by using Squad Leader to give them that focus token. Basic stuff, I know, but it hasn't been mentioned yet.

The trouble is that I don't want to buy three TIE Punisher Expansion Packs just to kit out my TIE bombers -- I think I'd rather fly the punishers:)

However, I do love the idea of two or three Scimitar Squadron Pilots with Proton Bombs and Extra Munitions. That's a whole lot of face-up damage cards you can deal! I think it's going to be my answer for all those pesky B-wings, and they might do a number on big fat turrets if I throw some Ion Pulse Missiles on the bombers, too.

I do love those Proton Bombs. Though despite often taking them I rarely use them. My primary use in having them is to control my opponent's maneuvering options. What idiot is going to willingly fly through the blast radius of one of those things after all? I usually throw one in formation with other ships to dissuade my opponent from getting behind me. This allows me to ensure my opponent stays in front of me more often during the match where I can shoot him .

I just thought of something dealing with Cluster Missiles. Marksmanship simply keys off of performing an attack so you get it's benefit on both attacks. Using it in conjunction with Experimental Interface will allow you to get your target lock to perform the attack then you can take the stress to use Marksmanship to boost both attacks. That could be useful on a Tie Bomber or Punisher loaded up with two Cluster Missiles and Extra Munitions.

A B-wing with Fire Control System, B-wing/E2 and Weapons Engineer would allow you to establish Target Locks outside of the action phase. Having two locks would help lower PS ships hedge their bets on where targets are going to end up. It's not a cheap setup once you add torpedoes on though, that and I don't like flying B-wings.

I just thought of something dealing with Cluster Missiles. Marksmanship simply keys off of performing an attack so you get it's benefit on both attacks. Using it in conjunction with Experimental Interface will allow you to get your target lock to perform the attack then you can take the stress to use Marksmanship to boost both attacks. That could be useful on a Tie Bomber or Punisher loaded up with two Cluster Missiles and Extra Munitions.

Woah. Nice thought.

Major Rhymer (42)

TIE Bomber (26), Extra Munitions (2), Cluster Missiles (4), Cluster Missiles (4), Marksmanship (3), Experimental Interface (3)

42 points is a lot to spend on a single bomber, but man it looks fun! I'm in Epic mode right now, and I think he'd do a number on those Huge ships...providing he could get in range.

Unfortunately, it still doesn't help those lowly generic pilots. I wish Jendon with Weapons Engineer could pass off both TLs in one round. I'd play him more often for sure.

Heres my 2 cents. Not sure if this has been suggested before, but I dont remember seeing it.

There have been some great ideas for fixing munitions in general. However I think we are facing a mixed bag of ordnance related issues, with early (i.e. Protons) and later (i.e. Flechettes) munitions being at different ends of the problem scale. One fix to rule them all might not be particularly balanced therefore, especially with wave 7 on the horizon, which will only add to the diversity.

So musing on this conundrum, a thought popped into my head in the shower - a way to specifically fix two wave 1 munitions cards in particular, the Proton Torp and Concussion Missile, which desperately need some love. A simple solution which would only require an errata in the FAQ for both cards.

So here goes:

Looking at the card text for Proton Torps and Concussion missiles. As they currently read; you may change 1 of your focus results into a Crit (torps) or one of your blanks into a hit (missiles).

Proposed fix: You may turn ALL your focus into crits (torps) and you may turn ALL your blanks into hits (missiles).

This way you would be less reliant upon having target lock AND focus to get your moneys worth from these two.

Improvement for Proton Torpedoes: It would make torpedoes very heavy hitters (boosting crit likelihood) though they suffer slightly by not being able to reroll blanks. This would make pilots with secondary weapon boosting skills more viable. They do gain heavily on focus to crit results, making them more useful against high hull ships (Fatimators). Overall they hit harder, but are slightly less accurate against fighters (no blank mitigation) due to their being slow warheads designed for capital ship killing.

Improvement for Concussion Missiles: Missiles gain accuracy as their blanks and focus can be converted to hits (if you have a focus). This I think is accurate as they were agile, anti-fighter, homing weapons, so allowing boost from focus would mean that you could score higher if you had focus support. Makes them less likely to score crits, but on balance makes their damage against small base ships higher.

it doesnt improve action economy for ordnance overall, but it does give you additional insurance and means that a poor roll would be less damaging. It would also have greater interaction with pilots who can buff secondaries (Crassis, Horton, Jonus etc). Best of all, FFG would only need to errata one word on both cards, so its a simple fix which could work in a short time frame and boost two of the best known ordnance options.

Worth 4 points?

I just thought of something dealing with Cluster Missiles. Marksmanship simply keys off of performing an attack so you get it's benefit on both attacks. Using it in conjunction with Experimental Interface will allow you to get your target lock to perform the attack then you can take the stress to use Marksmanship to boost both attacks. That could be useful on a Tie Bomber or Punisher loaded up with two Cluster Missiles and Extra Munitions.

Woah. Nice thought.

Major Rhymer (42)

TIE Bomber (26), Extra Munitions (2), Cluster Missiles (4), Cluster Missiles (4), Marksmanship (3), Experimental Interface (3)

42 points is a lot to spend on a single bomber, but man it looks fun! I'm in Epic mode right now, and I think he'd do a number on those Huge ships...providing he could get in range.

Unfortunately, it still doesn't help those lowly generic pilots. I wish Jendon with Weapons Engineer could pass off both TLs in one round. I'd play him more often for sure.

Yea that would be nice.

I think a key issue is that there really aren't any ships that are truly great with them that aren't better off with something else.

The B-wing actually has some of the best options for mitigating the cost of performing the attack, but is better off using those on it's cannon.

The Y-wing has been transformed into more of a pseudo cannon specialist through the BTL-A4 upgrade and I suspect the Twin Laser Turret is about to make it even more so.

The Tie Bomber gets the best options right now I think, but even those options aren't impressive enough to match up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoqky3GoFCQ

Are we seriously not gonna address this?