There has been a lot of talk about how the B-wing has basically replaced the X-wing in its own role.

There have been lots of fixes suggested (or demanded). That will not be my intention. It has been discussed enough. (well not enough for everybody; someone is probably making another thread for it right now)

What I would like to point out is how I think we got to this problem. Their dials.

At first glance the b-wing seems to have an inferior dial. It has 6 red, 5 white, and 4 green maneuvers. The X-wing has 1 red, 10 white, and 4 green. I think what FFG wanted was to give the B-wing a worse dial, while at the same time letting you take Advanced Sensors to mitigate all the red.

The idea being that naked an X-wing flies better than a B-wing, but upgraded the B-wing can compensate.

But it turns out is actual game play a red hard 1 is likely better than a white hard 3. I also think that K-2 turned out to be way more useful than FFG expected it to be.

I think FFG wanted the naked X-wing to be better than the naked B-wing, and the B-wings utility would come from how upgradeable it is. Unfortunately the naked B-wing was just better than they expected, especially in the dial.

I think if you add in missions to the game...where movement across the table in a hurry is important, then X-wings will become as good. If it's just deathmatch, then B-wings all day long (sigh).

It's not just about the dial (or statline, or action bar, etc) It's all those in concert.

Since you're most concerned with maneuverability, though, I'll remind you of the critical difference: Barrel Roll

The X-wing dial has three major advantages over the b-wing

hard-3s

white 4 foward

4k

this make it great at chasing after faster targets or sweeping in from far away (which is a great way to keep your frail little X-wing alive), and especially clearing the larger ships that the 2ks literally can't ever clear because it's exactly the length of a large base

now none of that comes even close to covering the superior stats and the B-wing's barrel-roll, but you take what advantages you can get. I like the X-wing's dial insofar as it gives the useful pilots (ala luke) license to flank very well whereas B-wings can't really since they're mostly limited to 2 speed maneuvers (unless you're keyan ofc)

One thing that happened is that fluff wise, the b-Wing was a good ship but had poor reliability and needed a lot of Maintence. That's hard to work into the game.

(Personally I think they just under costed the b and if the generics were one more point with 1 less shield it would be ok)

(Also I think the xwing could be fixed by never giving the defender a range 3 bonus giving it the long range sniper role)

It's not just about the dial (or statline, or action bar, etc) It's all those in concert.

Since you're most concerned with maneuverability, though, I'll remind you of the critical difference: Barrel Roll

I totally agree that the barrel roll is great. It get's even greater with Advanced Sensors, but I don't think that was where FFG made there miscalculation.

but I don't think that was where FFG made there miscalculation.

I think the B-Wing is one of the ships that FFG got right. It's not OP'ed, but it is a very good value for the points.

The problem is, they got the X-Wing wrong. It's easy to understand why, seeing how it was the first ship they made and comparing the X-Wing to the Tie Advanced the X is clearly better.

But when you have two ships that fill the same roll, and one is perhaps at least good for the points, it makes a ship that is a bit too expensive look even worse.

I agree that FFG likely wanted the B-Wing to feel limited by its dial. I remember when it came out everyone thought the dial was really bad, but it wasn't as bad as people thought, just required a different way of thinking about how to use the ship.

4 forward vs 3-forward (+barrel roll if necessary) Isn't that much of a difference, really. Small ships need boost to really be considered "fast" (Large ships can use barrel roll as well). A format the emphasized getting from one end of the playing field to the other repeatedly would make the b-wing less desirable, but people would be taking A-wings, Interceptors, and maybe e-wings.

Whether or not the B-wing works precisely the way the developers thought it would isn't the issue, though. The X-wing's weaknesses are also notable compared to z-95s, tie fighters, the post-raider tie advanced, interceptors, or anything with a turret.

The b-wing's turning radius is something of an anomaly, though. Maybe they thought that since it was the slowest of the rebel fighters, it would have a tighter turning range due to less inertia?

but I don't think that was where FFG made there miscalculation.

I think the B-Wing is one of the ships that FFG got right. It's not OP'ed, but it is a very good value for the points.

The problem is, they got the X-Wing wrong. It's easy to understand why, seeing how it was the first ship they made and comparing the X-Wing to the Tie Advanced the X is clearly better.

But when you have two ships that fill the same roll, and one is perhaps at least good for the points, it makes a ship that is a bit too expensive look even worse.

I agree that FFG likely wanted the B-Wing to feel limited by its dial. I remember when it came out everyone thought the dial was really bad, but it wasn't as bad as people thought, just required a different way of thinking about how to use the ship.

Actually I don't think they got the B-wing right. The B-wing always seemed more like an attack craft/bomber rather than a dog fighter. In the old X-wing PC game the B-wing didn't really do that good against TIEs or other fighters, but it killed big stuff pretty fast. I am not calling for a fix, because it is a fun ship in the game, and since B-Wings (like everything in this game) are fictional there really isn't such a thing as a right or a wrong way to do them. Or at least it is very personal.

Part of the issue is this is a dog fighting game. So every ship needs to be able to dog fight, or at least support a dog fight. It is kind of funny that the two things that the B-wing has that are used the least, its two torpedo slots and cannon upgrade slot are the things that are the most iconic-ly B-wing for me.

Look at how the B-wing is built in Armada, it is going to suck it up in fighter on fighter combat, but it is the single most scary fighter when it comes to attacking ships.

as you pointed out, it's a dog fighting game

it's also just a game, and in games there's a cardinal rule to observe:

gamplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else including source material fluff

Imo, the B-wing is FFG's best made X-wing miniatures ship to date. It's incredibly flexible, able to be run naked or as a premium offensive/control ship, and it leads to many varied experiences.

as you pointed out, it's a dog fighting game

it's also just a game, and in games there's a cardinal rule to observe:

gamplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else including source material fluff

Imo, the B-wing is FFG's best made X-wing miniatures ship to date. It's incredibly flexible, able to be run naked or as a premium offensive/control ship, and it leads to many varied experiences.

I agree with everything you said. The B-wing is great in this game for so many reasons, but it isn't very B-wing-y. At least not to me.

I think that is one of the reasons I don't actually fly it that much.

When I watch Star Wars and see those X-wings that look like they are held together with duct tape and a prayer go out and blow up the Death Star, it just makes my heart warm. And I kinda like that the X-wing in underpowered (sure I would prefer it the other way) but its a rebel ship, it isn't supposed to have cutting edge military technology.

I'm not sure if it's trustworthy next to the movie, but apparently the X-wing's supposed to be pretty advanced and a replacement for the aging Y-wing and Z-95

ofc, I do prefer the "warm heart" approach when those teeny little fighters take on the "That's no moon, that's a space station"

the only thing warmer than my heart is the death star going up in flames

In my opinion the X-wing should have had hard red 1 turns and the B-wing without them. It changes both ships dramatically.

Of course the R2 Astromech would have to be changed quite a bit.

Fair to say that the X-wing dial would work better against a swarm? Can't really say as I have little experience flying against them. B-wings seem vastly superior against a small number of ships and the designers did not foresee our current 2-ship meta. (I still can't use that word w/o feeling like a tool.)

Fair to say that the X-wing dial would work better against a swarm? Can't really say as I have little experience flying against them. B-wings seem vastly superior against a small number of ships and the designers did not foresee our current 2-ship meta. (I still can't use that word w/o feeling like a tool.)

I also feel awkward using the word 'ship'. I think it incorrectly conveys an old boat feel.

Fair to say that the X-wing dial would work better against a swarm? Can't really say as I have little experience flying against them. B-wings seem vastly superior against a small number of ships and the designers did not foresee our current 2-ship meta. (I still can't use that word w/o feeling like a tool.)

not really "work better."

I maintain the only advantages in versus large ships and with high PS pilots.

Wedge, for example, is still a brittle bastard. But because of his high PS (deploys last) and the X-wing's open dial at speed 3 and white speed 4, he can race around from the side while a more sturdy b-wing/z-95 core hit the middle of the table and took the brunt of the (mini)swarm. And then Wedge swoops in, superman theme blaring in the background, and starts one-shotting fools

of course, Wave 5 changed him to VI, R3-A2, EU Luke and the (mini)swarm to chiri + whisper, but same principle

Adv Sensors turns the B-wing's Achilles Dial into an excellent one. Once people get used to Adv Sensors and using those maneuvers when you switch out for FCS suddenly those reds don't look as bad.

Really interested to see what FFG come out with for the X-wing.

As others are pointing out, it's faulty logic to blame the B-Wing for the X-Wing's problems. Making the B-Wing worse wouldn't make the X-Wing better, it would just make them both bad.

It's like blaming the efficiency of the Lambda for how bad the TIE Advanced is just because they have similar points costs. If they had made the Lambda 4 hull 4 shields instead, would that have made the TIE Advanced better?

The B-wing's plenty B-wingy without Advanced Sensors. If you compare it to just about every ship other than the X-wing it acts relatively speaking like a B-wing: odd flying and slow as a Hutt on the way to the gym.

I think the higher speed moves the X-wing can make makes their final position a bit more unpredictable compared to the B-wing. The B-wing has a ton of positioning options, but they all fit within a pretty small circle. The X-wing with its 3-moves + 4 straight has a larger diameter of possible positions. The problem is that this feature is not super-useful by itself. It's primary benefit is avoiding getting caught at close range by stuff, which is what I think gamblertuba was getting at, but that's of limited usefulness with the X-wing's other assets.

Just brainstorming: I guess you could use the superior speed to set up a 4X list more spread out than a typical BBBB phalanx. It would be better at converging on a target than a 4B list. You'd go defensive with fighters that were the apparent target of your opponent, and flank with the other ones. The trick, as with any flanking attempt, is to not lose the target of your enemy's wrath too fast. The X-wing isn't super strong at accomplishing this, but it might give you options.

Luke, Predator 31

Tarn, R7 25

Rookie 21

Rookie, R3A2 23

100 points

The Rookies would be in a central position, with Tarn and Luke on the outside (but still not that wide). The faster dial would allow you to bring guns to bear a little better than a block of B-wings. You would have more maneuvering options and be less susceptible to obstacles and blocking than a formation. It would be harder to bring all your guns to bear, but you've got a broader spread, and they're all quality guns. I'm not convinced this would be great or anything, but I think it starts making use of the X-wing's dial.

It wasn't long ago that people thought that the BBXX lists were the bomb. I think the two ships complement each other a lot better than people have been saying lately. A pair of X's in front of a pair of B's is pretty deadly still.

Jacob

The B-Wings were supposed to be expensive to produce, so I think that the B-Wing is about 3-5 points too cheap. The reason there is so much red on the dial is because the B-Wing was difficult to fly properly.

I remember an interview with one of the developers saying that they designed the B-Wing to have a limited dial, and were actually surprised that people were taking Advanced Sensors out of the Lambda and mitigating the B-Wing's dial with it.

I think that's one of the things which shows exactly why the B-Wing is so much better- and shows what the X-Wing needs. The B-Wing has 2 torpedo slots, a sensor slot, a cannon slot, a modification slot and an (unused) title slot. And it can trade it's modification slot for a crew slot. That's a lot of customization options. That means that whenever something really good comes along, the B-Wing has a shot at getting access to it. In fact, the designers should pretty much ask themselves "how does this thing work on a B-Wing" whenever they design a new card. Can you imagine if Autothrusters was limited to ships with Boost or Barrel Roll? The B-Wing's defense gets a whole lot more reliable.

By contrast, the X-Wing has 1 torpedo slot, 1 droid slot, 1 modification slot, and one (unused) title slot. To make the X-Wing better, the designers pretty much have to deliberately create something for it. And they need to consider how any given droid works with Y-Wings and E-Wings. Granted, those ships could use some love as well.

And yeah, speed in and of itself isn't a huge advantage.

A good title card for the X-Wing is certainly due. I imagine one will come along eventually. For now, I still see them getting used, just less than they were at one point.

Jacob

When I watch Star Wars and see those X-wings that look like they are held together with duct tape and a prayer go out and blow up the Death Star, it just makes my heart warm. And I kinda like that the X-wing in underpowered (sure I would prefer it the other way) but its a rebel ship, it isn't supposed to have cutting edge military technology.

The T-65B, the variant flown by most X-wing pilots in the Alliance fleet, was definitely "cutting edge military technology."

"Its development began in secret when the Incom Corporation first started sympathizing with the Rebellion's cause. It was present early in the rebellion and later became a symbol for Alliance tactics."