I've heard nasty rumours regarding clarification of "return to printed effects," eg, Holding Ground, TKD Zephyr, etc.

Does "return" now incorporate a bonus/penalty?

Hewittzil said:

Can you be more specific regarding a card interaction that you're looking for?

Antigoth said:

Not particularly a specific card interaction.

I'm rather trying to clarify if the act of returning an attack to it's printed damage is now considered either/and an attack damage bonus or damage penalty for the purposes of card effects, re: card interactions that effect gain/reduction.

For details see Page 5 of the Hilde general discussion thread.

No, a bonus or penalty is +X or -X to a value.

edit: though yes, return-to-printed effects have always been an increase/reduction to damage, going all the way back to Made Not Born from SC01. But OH MY GOD NEW RULING IS NEW.

Tagrineth said:

Thanks for the help.

Not all of us have the time or trouble to keep up with the rules on a regular basis though. There's no harm in asking and we should not receive criticism for this in the answers that rules moderators provide.

Hewittzil said:

Yeah, you're right. rules moderators shouldn't criticize, good thing that doesn't apply to me anymore. It's still not really "keeping up on a regular basis" though considering this is an extremely old concept...

Hewittzil said:

Tag's not a rules mod anymore.

Sorry for the flak.

Tag - play nice.

Thanks again.

Just to ask about a specific card interaction. Spiritual Centre (and similar effects).

If returning, by the act of returning incorporating a speed or damage bonus, applies a speed or damage bonus to an attack. Can Spiritual Centre negate this speed or damage bonus.

Would this be comparable to the targeting requirement of Journey to Repentence, specifically referring to Foundations and therefore creating a window where the targeting of a foundation within a committal effect activates the Journey to Repentence response. In the same manner does Spiritual Centre, by referring to a speed or damage bonus, react to the creation of a speed or damage bonus and therefore may reactto the bonus being applied that is incorporated in the midst of the act of returning.

You would not.

Yes, a Bonus is when you increase a value.

Yes, returning can cause a value to increase.

However returning does not mean it's a bonus.

Hence why you can neither apply bonuses, nor return Raging Gnome to it's printed damage.

Antigoth said:

But does this not incorporate a bonus within the definition of returning? I am not considering the act of returning comparable to a bonus, but the incorporation of a value increase within the stages required to "return" as generating this bonus.

The comparison to Journey to Repentence in the instance that Journey for Repentence activates to the targeting of a Foundation within the committal window, rather than the committal window as a whole. As such there is precedence for card interaction to occur within the steps taken for an effect to complete which, in the case of Journey is the targeting of a foundation within a committal effect window but after the completion of the initial declaration to activate the committal ability. For Spiritual Centre the activation is at the stage of a bonus being generated within the mechanics of returning an attack by calculating the value that is needed to restore an attack from it's current value to it's printed value (which results in a definite and specific number).

Hewittzil said:

While the terms can be synonyms, they are not equivilant.

To be fair, we need to cite the glossary from the AGR:

Bonus: Any positive addition applied to a numerical value. The opposite of a penalty.

In the case of returning it is not a positive addition. It is resetting the value to its original value.

While a Bonus will always result in an increase, (Positive addition = increase) a return will not.

Within the game there is a desire at the design level to see Return & Bonus not being the same verbiage. That is why some situations refer to a value being increased. Those situations are there specifically to deal with both return and bonus situations.

Hewittzil said:

Please note, I am not disputing with you that Bonus and Return in some situations may have the same window where their effect generates. Hence my stating above that in some situations they are synonymous. The next revision of the AGR will have an expanded glossary. Increase, Reduce, and "Return" will be individually defined.

Hopefully this provides the clarification sought.