Place Major Rhymer and several other fighters, including Soontir Fel and at least two Tie Advanced, at medium range of the Assault Frigate and start lobbing anti-ship dice. Keep Mauler Mithel in reserve. The Rebel Aces will be forced to run out of the Gallant Haven's protective bubble to attack the clear medium range threat. They'll be forced to target the Tie Advanceds first. Every time they do, they'll suffer one unsoakable point of hull damage from Soontir Fel's ability. During the squadron phase, send in Mauler Mithel who will then give all the Rebel Aces an additional point of unsoakable hull damage. If the Imperial player has Chiraneau, he can use subsequent squadron commands to move Mauler Mithel slightly to cause yet another point of unsoakable damage on all the Rebel aces.

With all those squadrons tied up and the odds no longer in favor of the Rebels, move in your beefed up VSD to shred the Assault Frigate, which could already be moderately banged up from the squadron bombardment.

Don't get me wrong ... the Rebel aces are very strong. But it's strength 100% dependent on getting the Imperial player to send in his fighters at the Frigate, which would indeed be a very very stupid move. Give them incentive to come to you instead

i love the squadron dojo going on with Wave1. I am so excited and hoping my LGS has their stuff in today. its gonna be an expensive and glorious night.

Place Major Rhymer and several other fighters, including Soontir Fel and at least two Tie Advanced, at medium range of the Assault Frigate and start lobbing anti-ship dice. Keep Mauler Mithel in reserve. The Rebel Aces will be forced to run out of the Gallant Haven's protective bubble to attack the clear medium range threat. They'll be forced to target the Tie Advanceds first. Every time they do, they'll suffer one unsoakable point of hull damage from Soontir Fel's ability. During the squadron phase, send in Mauler Mithel who will then give all the Rebel Aces an additional point of unsoakable hull damage. If the Imperial player has Chiraneau, he can use subsequent squadron commands to move Mauler Mithel slightly to cause yet another point of unsoakable damage on all the Rebel aces.

With all those squadrons tied up and the odds no longer in favor of the Rebels, move in your beefed up VSD to shred the Assault Frigate, which could already be moderately banged up from the squadron bombardment.

Don't get me wrong ... the Rebel aces are very strong. But it's strength 100% dependent on getting the Imperial player to send in his fighters at the Frigate, which would indeed be a very very stupid move. Give them incentive to come to you instead

As far as Mithel goes, I'm pretty sure you can "move" a squadron 0, and it still counts as a move. Of course you'd need Chiraneau to pull that off with an engaged Mithel, but still good.

Place Major Rhymer and several other fighters, including Soontir Fel and at least two Tie Advanced, at medium range of the Assault Frigate and start lobbing anti-ship dice. Keep Mauler Mithel in reserve. The Rebel Aces will be forced to run out of the Gallant Haven's protective bubble to attack the clear medium range threat. They'll be forced to target the Tie Advanceds first. Every time they do, they'll suffer one unsoakable point of hull damage from Soontir Fel's ability. During the squadron phase, send in Mauler Mithel who will then give all the Rebel Aces an additional point of unsoakable hull damage. If the Imperial player has Chiraneau, he can use subsequent squadron commands to move Mauler Mithel slightly to cause yet another point of unsoakable damage on all the Rebel aces.

With all those squadrons tied up and the odds no longer in favor of the Rebels, move in your beefed up VSD to shred the Assault Frigate, which could already be moderately banged up from the squadron bombardment.

Don't get me wrong ... the Rebel aces are very strong. But it's strength 100% dependent on getting the Imperial player to send in his fighters at the Frigate, which would indeed be a very very stupid move. Give them incentive to come to you instead

Your Rhymer Squadron looks like this:

100 points:

Soontir

Rhymer

Mauler

TIE ADV

TIE ADV

TIE Bomber x3

On the bounce the Rebel Aces will wreck the bomber squadron: Dutch and Wedge target Soontir, leaving two squadrons of TIE ADV vs Luke, Keyan and Tycho. On average one squadron will go down to the trio, and the other goes down when Wedge shoots it in the squadron phase (or Dutch deactivates it with the Adar untap.) Gallant Haven moves up to support, leaving only Mauler Mithel capable of doing damage against 5 nearly full hp Aces.

The only reasonable Starfighter complement which has a good chance against the Aces protected by Gallant Haven will be:

Soontir

Mauler

Howlrunner

Interceptor x3 for 98 points. Supported by Flight Controller they should have enough anti-squadron dice to kill at least Wedge on the bounce. They do get shredded by anti-squadron firepower from the AF2 however, so rushing the Gallant Haven isn't the best idea.

Gallant Haven provides Rebel Aces the necessary protection for them to have the advantage on the initial bounce. Attacking them is a bad proposition.

Yeah, that's if the Imps just walk into range 3 without mounting the first offensive, which would definitely knock out at least one of the major Rebel players.

It's fun to think that this list is perfect, when you pretend that the imperial fighters are 100% mismanaged, or that they won't act until you attack first, but that's merely a pipe dream. A 5 squadron imperial first strike would devastate your list.

Also, with an Advanced, you couldn't just destroy the bombers in 1 turn... Escort.

It's a powerful list of ships, but it's a lot of points to establish only mediocre space superiority.

Unless I'm missing a trick, you can't attack Baron Fel until you kill the T/A. That's gonna be a minimum of 2 dice of damage to each of 2 attacking squadrons. Potentialy more.

Certainly not going to kill the aces, but it should put a little hurt on them. I'd have the flight escorted by (or escorting) a Gladiator, in any case, which should offer an unpleasent amount of fire to the mix.

Jgz and Der have it right. The Escort on the Tie Advanced *forces* you to attack them. All your fire would be concentrated on those two five hull squadrons, essentially gimping your aces' first salvo on the least important targets. The Tie Advanceds are there strictly to be sacrificial targets. In the meantime, each one of those rebel squadrons have lost two hull each ... before the Imperials even fire back.

Pretty much any fighter heavy list I personally intend to put on the table will have a minimum of two Tie Advanceds. Then create two wings of squadrons with one Tie Adv each and a mix of tie interceptors and regular ties.

X-Wings also have that ability ... but in the case of X-Wings, Imperials *want* to take down Luke and Wedge as they are the two best pilots they have.

Also, Rhymer's ability doesn't just work on bombers. Any squadron huddled with him can toss anti-ship dice at medium range. They wouldn't be able to take advantage of criticals, but in the case of black dice, 6 out of 8 dice faces include a hit.

Yeah, that's if the Imps just walk into range 3 without mounting the first offensive, which would definitely knock out at least one of the major Rebel players.

It's fun to think that this list is perfect, when you pretend that the imperial fighters are 100% mismanaged, or that they won't act until you attack first, but that's merely a pipe dream. A 5 squadron imperial first strike would devastate your list.

Also, with an Advanced, you couldn't just destroy the bombers in 1 turn... Escort.

It's a powerful list of ships, but it's a lot of points to establish only mediocre space superiority.

I hardly claim it's perfect. I list a reasonable squadron that would give this list problems and demonstrate how they would be at a disadvantage if they decided to attack them while protected by Gallant Haven. You didn't list any examples of this '5-squadron Imperial First Strike' that would 'devastate my list', because Wedge can brace up to four times in one round you will need at least two more squadrons to guarantee a kill.

There's no such thing as mediocre space superiority. You either have it or you don't.

Turns out TIE Adv do have a use after all! Two ADV and Soontir is a good combination.

TIE ADV

TIE Interceptors x3

Howlrunner

Darth Vader

Soontir Fel

is a strong 100 points Imperial Space Superiority list. This would require you to have two VSDs activate their squadron command though versus just one.

You could activate just 5 at once. Howlrunner, Vader, Fel, an Advanced, and an Interceptor would be a very strong 5 squadrons to move that would be very powerful. The rest could wait, or be activated separately.

Bracing doesn't mean no damage. An Interceptor throwing 5-6 dice with a reroll still might be landing 2 on Wedge, after brace and Gallant Haven. Those 4 braces would work great for 1 turn. Leaving him defenseless after that.

He could still be killed in one turn, with potential damage to spare elsewhere.

Or you could keep your fighters back a little bit. Either the rebel fighters will sit ineffectively next to an AFII that's getting pummeled, or they'll have to jump outside of Gallant Haven's protection to attack the Destroyer.

The space superiority list that you've assembled is mediocre. No need to worry too much about trying to correct grammar.

It is far from mediocre at space superiority because unless you bring specifically four of the five Imperial aces supported by an Expanded Hangars VSD and Flight Controller you're probably going to lose the fighter battle. It is functionally immune to 1-2 dice attacks and anti-squadron fire, while TIE interceptor squadrons get no protection from the 2-3 anti-squadron dice the AFIIs can put out. TIE fighter squadrons in particular are extremely inefficient against it.

Fighting with Gallant Haven protecting you also gives a big edge to the defending Rebel squadrons, not to mention Adar allowing one person to shoot twice and Dutch deactivating opposing squadrons.

I'm not claiming it's the magical curative to starfighter combat as some people seem to have taken umbrage at. It's a solid combination that's fun to play.

If you can't muster a tactical argument beyond 'I'll just shoot you with 3 VSDs and I win' or feel the need to make personal attacks, please save everyone's time and don't reply.

I'm sorry that my disagreement is so offensive to you. I think you overestimate the usefulness of GH's range 1 protection. I think you underestimate the rebel fighters range disadvantage. I think you underestimate the anti-squadron damage efficacy of dedicated Imperial fighters, and the combos they are capable of.

I don't think that a different imperial list will necessarily "lose" the fighter battle (for reasons that I've previously mentioned several times - as have others - and that you previously ignored several times.)

Ok, you want me to be done pointing out some of the weaknesses of your build. Obviously you are equating disagreement with impoliteness. I can't do anything about that.

See you later.

I think I'd be moved to lead with my Victories into this and keep my fighters in reserve. Around turn 3 both Victories would activate squadrons, isolate any rebel squadrons with my placement, and kill one squadron at a time.

All Imperial craft have a longer range than the Rebel ones, with the exception of the A-Wing.

Also Gallant heaven's protection is only out to distance 1... which makes me feel like in order to really get its benefit your fighters have to be nearly hugging the hull. I think unless the Haven is ramming the ship it is trying to destroy those fighters are likely going to be leaving the protective cover, if for no other reason than to intercept enemy fighters targeting the rest of your fleet.

Did you guys overlook Fel's combo with Advanceds...? Fel deals damage to fighters that do not attack him. So even if one TIE advanced squadron is lost any fighter within engagement range of Fel is going to take damage to do so, and Fel Still attacks. Based on the wording between Fel and the Haven, Fel is still doing damage since his ability is not considered an attack.

I'm thinking of running a MkII + Gallant Haven + Adar Tallon with a Neb B + Yavaris. The idea being that if they get the jump on me my fighters will be in range of Haven and Yavaris can activate them for double attacks, or if I decide to bounce on them, I can attack twice with one of my named squadrons via Adar, or maybe even 3 times if I activate again with Yavaris.

Not sure what squadrons I'll be running yet but I'm thinking of Luke, Wedge, and Dutch as a foundation to build off of. I'm a sucker for X-wings anyway, and Dutch is just too good to pass up. Also debating on grabbing a Weapons Liaison for Yavaris in case the Imperials get the jump on me unexpectedly. That way I can still proc his ability. Still brainstorming the rest of my fleet, but thats what I got so far.

Did you guys overlook Fel's combo with Advanceds...?

Nope, that got mentioned.

Yeah, Gallant Haven provides a great boost... But with the potential of medium range bombing runs I think it's a crutch that shouldn't be leaned on too much. Keeping fighters at range 1 doesn't leave them a lot of latitude to be useful.

Plus, even still, Interceptors are throwing a ton of dice. Enough dice that it's reasonable to assume at least one or two will be accuracies. That will help with the defense tokens.

I'm thinking of running a MkII + Gallant Haven + Adar Tallon with a Neb B + Yavaris. The idea being that if they get the jump on me my fighters will be in range of Haven and Yavaris can activate them for double attacks, or if I decide to bounce on them, I can attack twice with one of my named squadrons via Adar, or maybe even 3 times if I activate again with Yavaris.

Not sure what squadrons I'll be running yet but I'm thinking of Luke, Wedge, and Dutch as a foundation to build off of. I'm a sucker for X-wings anyway, and Dutch is just too good to pass up. Also debating on grabbing a Weapons Liaison for Yavaris in case the Imperials get the jump on me unexpectedly. That way I can still proc his ability. Still brainstorming the rest of my fleet, but thats what I got so far.

It's definitely a power heavy list. If executed correctly, it holds the power for some devastation for sure.

I'm also not sure how much thought to invest in the fighter game. In the end it's a match up against capital ships... the game lasts only as long as one side has capital ships. If you have enough fighters to keep enemy fighters occupied they won't be shooting at your ships, allowing them to weather fire from the enemy capital ships, allowing you to shoot them and then blow them up.

I'm also not sure how much thought to invest in the fighter game. In the end it's a match up against capital ships... the game lasts only as long as one side has capital ships. If you have enough fighters to keep enemy fighters occupied they won't be shooting at your ships, allowing them to weather fire from the enemy capital ships, allowing you to shoot them and then blow them up.

If there wasn't a turn limit like in X-Wing I'd be all for fighters but ultimately 6 Tie Fighters could keep opposing squadrons busy all game no matter how many points they spend on them or how elite (Rhymer and Tycho throw a bit of a wrinkle in that thought though).

AFII B 102

Gallant Haven

Adar

Hangars

Flight Controller

Squadrons 91

Tycho

Wedge

Luke

Keyan

Dutch

(This almost feels like an X-Wing list... )

Gallant Haven activating all five Rebel aces should unleash a torrent of blue dice like no Imperial fighter wing has ever seen.

Keyan and Dutch go in first, Dutch activating twice to de-activate two enemy squadrons. Luke and Wedge come in next to smash any remaining opposition with their 5 blue and 7 blue respectively, followed by Tycho to mop up any stragglers. Against Capitals with shields Luke activates twice, against unshielded caps Keyan activates twice to drop 4 black dice with re-rolls. The Aces drop 6 black dice against Capitals without using Adar, i.e. nearly two broadsides from a Gladiator-class.

If the aces stick near Gallant Haven, they are functionally immune to 2-dice anti-squadron firepower ( Brace + Haven = 0 damage).

If they camp out on the Contested Outpost with Haven nearby they are functionally immune to TIE firepower ( Brace + Haven vs 2 dice attacks.) Basically, Brace + Haven is obnoxious. Each of the aces can brace up to four times in combat if they discard.

Last thing first: [2 Damage - 1(GH)] / 2(Brace) = 0,5 Damage => 1 Damage

Second: Dutch has a speed of 3, Imps of, at least, 4, thus they won't be in range. The same goes for almost every other rebel squad. This means, the Imps will be the ones attacking (or they are incredibly incompetent placed). If the Rebs are attacking, they will most likely not be guarded by the GH (or the Imp is really really incompetent, letting his fighters stay in close distrance to the GH).

Thus there are only two (non impcompetent) scenarios, how the Rebel fighters may come into dogfights:

- The GH manages to close in on the TIEs because of a gambit => no point to do this for the Rebels, as they will lose dearly elsewhere.

- The Rebel fighters leaving the screen of the GH or the GH gets destroyed and the Imp is willing to dogfight the Rebels

- The Imp attacks the Rebels on his whim (and will likely win, otherwise he wouldn't attack)

For real air superiority, this list is to inflexible and slow - the Rebel fighters are stuck with the GH and loose the main fighter advantage: mobility.

Yes, it is really nasty, if you fight the Rebel fighters on their terms - but the Rebel can't enforce the Imp to do so. There are so many points sunk into the fighters and the GH, that the Imp will most likely win through objectives or destruction of the Rebel capitals, if the Imps list is designed to do so. if the Imp is fighterheavy, too, it might get difficult - but he will have his own tricks, like Fel and T/As or Rhymer and Bombers (who can stay easily out of range of the Rebel fighters if they cuddle to the GH. If not, well, then it gets interesting but the Rebl fighter will have lost their protection).

I'm also not sure how much thought to invest in the fighter game. In the end it's a match up against capital ships... the game lasts only as long as one side has capital ships. If you have enough fighters to keep enemy fighters occupied they won't be shooting at your ships, allowing them to weather fire from the enemy capital ships, allowing you to shoot them and then blow them up.

If there wasn't a turn limit like in X-Wing I'd be all for fighters but ultimately 6 Tie Fighters could keep opposing squadrons busy all game no matter how many points they spend on them or how elite (Rhymer and Tycho throw a bit of a wrinkle in that thought though).

How do you figure?

Ryhmer can bomb from medium range, bypassing a screen that had to stay within distance 1 of the GH.

Tycho can slip right past fighter screens.

I'm also not sure how much thought to invest in the fighter game. In the end it's a match up against capital ships... the game lasts only as long as one side has capital ships. If you have enough fighters to keep enemy fighters occupied they won't be shooting at your ships, allowing them to weather fire from the enemy capital ships, allowing you to shoot them and then blow them up.

If there wasn't a turn limit like in X-Wing I'd be all for fighters but ultimately 6 Tie Fighters could keep opposing squadrons busy all game no matter how many points they spend on them or how elite (Rhymer and Tycho throw a bit of a wrinkle in that thought though).

How do you figure?

It only takes 1 Tie Fighter to tie (get it? ) as many enemy fighters in range 1 as possible which could be all of them. You just have to be careful in your positioning and if you do it right you could just keep a fighter in range 1 of your ships at all times which basically acts like an ablative shield for any bombing run. When 1 Tie dies just move a new Tie into range 1 (if you want to be really safe just move/keep two into range for extra engagements). It doesn't even matter if your Tie ever fires a shot since every turn the enemy isn't bombing your ships is a waste for them.

6 Turns is the real killer. Beyond the slow speed of most effective bombers (tie Bombers excepted), they generally lose the first turn because its hard to get a shot that early in the game and they also generally lose at least one more turn (generally two) because they are out of range of a squad command after they try an attack run. That means you only really need to slow down opposing fighters for three to four turns max. If there was no turn limit you could just load up on fighter and bombers, win air superiority and then spend limitless turn pepering ships until they explode. So far it looks like the designers spent a lot of time making sure that isn;t an easy choice and to be effective it will take some real brain power (it can be effective, please don't get me wrong, I just don't think it's going to be easy.

Ryhmer can bomb from medium range, bypassing a screen that had to stay within distance 1 of the GH.

Tycho can slip right past fighter screens.

Yep and Yep

Sure, Tycho can slip through the fighter screens right into the guns of every interceptor covering the Bombers.

And if not them, then it's Fel and the Brights, which I think is the deadliest starfighter combination for Wave 1. Vader could also have it out for Tycho since he hits like a truck.

I just whipped this idea up at once, no idea how it will do or how to finish it, BUT:

Assault Frigate B 72pts

-Gallant Haven 8pts

-Adar Tallon 10pts

-Expanded Hangers 5pts

Neb B escort Frigate 57pts

-Yavaris 8pts

-Raymus Antillies 7pts

164 points so far out of 300

So, the Gallant Haven activates the fighters it sheltered in, and Adar toggles one (probably a hero or bomber), which Yavaris then can use to shoot again, twice, because the ace is already in position and wont need to move.

Question, would the Gallant title act like this on a squadron:

-Shot at, gets 2 hits, brace down to 1, then canceled

Or

-Shot at, gets 2 hits, 1 is canceled, then brace is useless.

Important stuff to know!

If you took 1 of each rebel ace, you are at 91 points for 5 squadrons. That will probably never die, because of those **** brace actions.

Saw this thread and decided to post in here, instead of in a new one, cause the title seemed relevant.

Yeah, but if he can tangle the bombers for a critical turn or turn, he's done his job.

I just whipped this idea up at once, no idea how it will do or how to finish it, BUT:

Assault Frigate B 72pts

-Gallant Haven 8pts

-Adar Tallon 10pts

-Expanded Hangers 5pts

Neb B escort Frigate 57pts

-Yavaris 8pts

-Raymus Antillies 7pts

164 points so far out of 300

So, the Gallant Haven activates the fighters it sheltered in, and Adar toggles one (probably a hero or bomber), which Yavaris then can use to shoot again, twice, because the ace is already in position and wont need to move.

Question, would the Gallant title act like this on a squadron:

-Shot at, gets 2 hits, brace down to 1, then canceled

Or

-Shot at, gets 2 hits, 1 is canceled, then brace is useless.

Important stuff to know!

If you took 1 of each rebel ace, you are at 91 points for 5 squadrons. That will probably never die, because of those **** brace actions.

Saw this thread and decided to post in here, instead of in a new one, cause the title seemed relevant.

Just be aware that sinking all of your points into fighter support might not be the best way to kill caps.

Also, with the amount of dice that interceptors can roll, expect not to be able to use brace all the time.

It's a hard hitting setup, but I think it has a lot of flaws, too.