darklogos said:

Keep in mind that there is some luck involved in that. The first player has to be able to spam hard on their first turn, and not fail checks usually. They have to get a near perfect draw. Then they need their opponent to over extend themselves trying to keep up in the spamwar race.

I know personally I ate a turn 2 loss in the first game of a best of three matchup earlier this week at tournament. The second game I won, and the third game took 6 or 7 turns, because I knew how to stop him turn 2ing me, and he was playing very defensively because I could go off on him if he over extended.

Turn 2 kills can usually be mitigated, and just require understanding of the meta, and what it's possible for your opponent to do.

darklogos said:

Things to note:

1) The forums should typically be taken with a grain of salt.

2) Typically some of the loudest voices complaining on the forums are the folks with the smallest collections, who have no interest in aquiring cards that "aren't from their favourite character/symbol/ whatever."

3) People complaining about what they're loosing to turn 2, are not sharing the general set up of what their opponent is playing. They're not sharing what they're playing, or the deck lists.

4) Actual tournament calbur decks, are typically not shared, because people "want to keep the tech to themselves". This has caused a consistent stunted growth of the meta, because people will play in their insular meta, and there isn't a strong sharing of different metas.

5) There is a distinct need to discuss how cards are played, and when cards are played. This is something that is not frequently done. Additionally players need to learn how to adjust their playstyles to their oppoents and what they're facing. Too many folks are very liniar in that they must play card a, then card b, then card C in that order, or their deck won't work. Or they won't attack until they have X Y or Z. Because of that rigidity in playstyles, I see players loosing. I've seen a player loose a game because early on in the game "I can't block with this attack, because I need it later." where as the 5 or 6 damage they would have prevented by playing that attack would have won them the game.

Please understand that each playgroup is different. The meta in Winnipeg is different from Texas, is different from Arizona, is different from New York. (And so on)

What works in one meta will not always work in a different meta. Guys like Dut I listen to and I respect, because whether he's playing in Calgary, Winnipeg, Gencon, Origins, Toronto, wherever - he does well as a player. His insights and decks tend to transcend the meta, and he is truly a student of the game. Some other very loud folks tend to own one or two starters from SCIV, no Shadowar, no Tekken, and are making pronouncements from how they percieve the game beind played.

@ Logos: (note simply becuase I hate big quotes)

We aren't lying or yanking, turn 2 kills exist, but they aren't possible in 'all' circumstances, and they require some luck, some great deckbuilding, and the opposite of luck for the opponent.

If you are going second you are naturally having to play more defensively than if you go first. This is fair, after all, wasn't the way you determined who went first fair? Dice roll, some sort of random element? This is a game, and games involve skill and luck. Very few games are 100% skill oriented, a card game - never... Just be glad we have the option to mulligan.

It sounds to me like you expect to come to the boards and get all sorts of information about the game, instead all you get is opinions from a very diverse group of players. In order for you to form your own opinions you need to build your own decks and play your own way, you can't simply speculate about the way things 'should' be or the way things 'are' when your experience is limited to a regulated group of players that appear to be penalized for pushing the envelope of deck design. Turn one kills are possible, why don't you start there, dream up the perfect scenario where you kill turn 1, what checks you need, and what your opponent can't have to survive. Then when you realize this is possible in like 1/80 opening hands and checks, move to a turn 2 kill and see how you can improve the efficiency of killing from thereon. I'm sure you will find the most efficient kill lies in turn 4 against and with most characters. (note killing also involves surviving, so you have to build your deck to not be killed turn 3 if that is equally an issue). A few have their efficiency mark at turn 3 and against non-28+ vit characters, but very few are like this.

You need to build decks towards their most efficent method of play, and then play them against one another to further squeeze out more efficiency... Some characters, obviously the more agresssive ones with bigger handsizes and lower vitality's, are geared towards ending games quickly and they force their opponent to do the same. Some characters, the ones with defensive or techincal abilities, are more suited for control and defense then counter-offensive tactics, these games last longer.

The money thing shouldn't be an issue, you should proxy if it is just your isolated playgroup... And you should trade with other playgroups prior to travelling or at least communicate your need for cards come an actual tournament.

I'm not entirely sure why we are discussing this in here, I suppose it is a viable tangent considering PotM is both a promotional card (not 'as widely' distributed as others) and one that enables big damage earlier and with a few select characters moreso than others.

- dut

Antigoth said:

My last turn 2 loss came to, lo and behold, Jin. I was a sub 20 vit character (Hilde w/ 18) and after him going first I played out 4 foundations, none of which reduced damage, I had a low block a mid block and a no block card in hand.

I stupidly blocked the first attack with my mid block, a mid throw, responding with breaker 1 (again stupid), and then proceeded to take 7 and 12 damage from the launcher and knight breaker that followed.

1) I should have mulliganed, Hilde without damage pump/reduction is not a good opening hand.

2) I should have known, granted this was game 2 and I had already won game 1, that his attack lineup was big damage high attacks. It was also big damage low attacks (that low kick multiple that recurs characters), but without the character damage pump out I should've known to keep at least 1 high block, without damage reduction in place.

3) I should have blocked the biggest damage attack, taking 4 -> 7 -> 6, instead of 2 -> 7 -> 12...

Bottom line, I made a lot of mistakes and lost turn 2 to a character that pumps control checks. It should have been obvious I was going to be faced with some serious agression.

In any case, this was an ad hoc game during a 15 min stop at the card shop in between softball and soccer (I missed the tourney that day and nonetheless wanted to challenge the winner) and having won game 1 and feeling overconfident (a good card by the way), not an excuse, just letting you know where 'not being focused' can get you in UFS, a turn 2 loss.

Was he lucky to draw into and pass 3 foundations while commited turn 1? Probably had a 70% chance of doing this. Was he lucky drawing into the Knight Breaker combo turn 2? Probably had a 50%+ chance of doing this - my analysis of things after looking into his deck. Was he lucky checking a 3 -> 4 -> 4 with Jin's +1s in effect and comitting 2 to pass the last attack? Probably had a 85% chance of doing this. Add all of this together and he can probably kill turn 2 against a deck that a) doesn't block the right attack or at least 1 of 3 attacks, b) has less than 20 vit, and c) doesn't have redux - fairly consistently.

Will I get turn 2'd again in my lifetime? duh - yes. Will I get turn 2'd at a tournament? I hope not becuase my practice will have been for naught then. But you better believe it is possible, especially if I check 1s/2s and the opponent pass all of their early attack checks? This is luck and sometimes it is bad.

I hope this is good information for you.

- dut

dutpotd said:

Awesome analysis like this why I hold you in the esteem that I do.

Antigoth said:

Thanks, I'm sure you know the respect/esteem most players hold for each other is mutual, and it goes without saying that this is the case here too.

I think my most epic (I will always remember it) turn 2 loss is in the Calgary regional game 1 final where I am up against Felicia (again I have a sub 20 vit character) where I got to go first, had 6/7 foundations out after I had two turns of build, and still died to my opponents turn 2 attack, followed by Feline Spike - again note I blocked the wrong attack in the hopes of ending the turn (wasn't with breaker but with a reversal). See my tourney report if you care for details.

My meta is kind of 'very' agressive, we don't really like the long mental game, we like the short intensely (who makes the first and only mistake) games. If my deck doesn't have a way (chance) to kill turn 2/3, or doesn't have a strong chance of surviving to turn 4 (or the turn I can kill) in all cases, I won't play it. This is pretty much the bar you have to set.

It happens, but don't worry about turn 2 kills going into every game you play. Rather, learn to identify if/what is possible and think about both your own and your opponent's cards before you make decisions, that is really all you need to do (easier said than done though).

- dut

Turn 2 is frequent over here as well, through various make-ups. It is generally Jin off Fire, Ragnar off Fire and it was also seen with Kazuya due to a goddamned lucky hand.

Set-up is as follows :

Turn 1 : Foundation Spam.
Turn 2 : GO FOR THE KILL. (Jin : Knight Breaker combo - also, if player is Target X and he has it in hand, he will attempt it Turn 1. I am not kidding. He did it. - Ragnar : Rarer, but generally himself backed by Stormhammer and Berserker Rage on small attacks or throws. Kazuya is the extremely lucky "I get all my momentum gen" Unnatural Grace into Lightning Uppercut into Hoping for a Real Challenge into Lightning Uppercut committing myself out entirely and doing just the right amount of damage to win)

Keep in mind, nobody uses Path of the Master. I could, but I'm too lazy to switch the deck it's in.

darklogos said:

The problem with this logic is it can be extended to every pair of turns in the game. EG Turn 3 kills aren't fair for the same reason. Nor are Turn 4 kills.

Further not all turn 2 kills are by the person who goes first.

Regardless, I certainly wouldn't play a game where I wasn't allowed to win if I went first.

RockStar said:

I overlooked this before, sorry about that. Just wanted to address your statement, good sir. Yeah, I was under the impression that it was difficult to get ahold of if you weren't at the one event where it was given out. Since then Antigoth addressed this issue in the Omni-FAQ and reiterated it again earlier in this forum.

As for the the answers too few and far in between, I don't think I said that exactly. What I do feel is that given it's power it could stand one more modicum of "fragility" (and one that coincides with the nature of the card, at that). Asset committal/destruction, enhance negation and damage pump negation is not running rampant across all resources and I'm not saying it should either. I never said it's banworthy, just very strong.

aslum said:

Turn 3 you have had time to setup something. The issue is that playing one turn of foundations is barely enough to even survive an onslaught of a turn 2 killer. The logic isn't that the person gets more turns. The logic is that chance to setup is not even given. It would be different if you started with a base 2 or 3 cards in your card pool. But you don't. You can't even say the word block have of the time on turn one because you don't have the means to really do it effectively.

darklogos said:

You have the ability to to block turn 1. Infact, when I go first, I'll often start attacking on Turn 1. Yes, Before they've even had a chance to play foundations. I had a game three weeks ago (it was legacy, keep in mind) I was playing Night Terror, off Evil, and won first turn while committed, against my opponent who had a 7hs and 20 vitality. However this past week, one of my players was informing me that he would have a hard time playing attacks on turn 1. Then I started point out to him cards in his deck like Swing Kick*, and the fact that he was running no checks less then 3, and started changing his perceptions.

Also, if they only have one turn - they can drop 3 or 4 foundations if the deck is built well, and still maintain two blocks in hand.

Two blocks should be sufficient to prevent a turn 2 beatdown.

The problem that I'm seeing far too often is that people aren't willing to run 6 checks in their deck, because they "don't want to draw dead cards." Yet, they're complaining about having problems passing checks, and not having enough blocks.

Again - if you're consistently loosing turn 2, I want to see your deck list, and I want you to tell me what they're playing turn 1, and what you're playing turn 1, then how they're killing you on turn 2.

Go back - Read Dut's assessment of how he lost Turn 2, and then proceeded to not loose turn 2 again.

Now going back to why I'm mentioning attacking turn 1 - if your opponent knows you can attack that early, and will attack that early, it will tend to stop them from trying for the Turn 2 Kill. Usually a T2K requires the player to go balls out, and risk everything, where if they fail a check they are really exposed.

From what I've seen, if they know you'll start going after them right away attacking, they'll be less likely to try that risk of going for the kill turn 2, because the risk is too great.

Here is something to keep in mind:

A Turn 2 kill will still often take 15 minutes from start of the game to finish of the game. (Just in terms of the players thinking through all of the different aspects of their game)

Rounds are 50 minutes, best 2 out of three. If each game ends in a T2K, the round still takes 45 minutes, leaving only 5 minutes before the end of the round.

UFS is supposed to be fast paced game between two fighers to determine who is the best. Eliminating T2K's removes an often Epic, memorable, yet seldomly seen aspect of the game. And I don't use seldomly lightly. Seriously out of your last 10 games, how many of them ended turn 2?

<Forgive me, but this is a pet peeve of mine - players don't like an aspect of the game, and rather then think through how to deal with it, and solve the puzzle and evolve, they want the game to change so that they don't have to think through how to deal with problems.>

@Antigoth.

The heroclix community was very healthy and helpful. I do mean very helpful. Meta, tech, how to play x figure, map specfic teams, why stuff wins and stuff fails was all around. There was the passing along of very accurate information about the game. There was no secret tech because of Wizard Worlds would reveal anything major broke and the positive feedback of the judges and arbiters kept things a bit more in line. A judge in heroclix had a lot more influence ability then a scout in UFS. The judges were asked to help on what you would call the Omni Faq. Any major ruling change was debated on the judges forum before it was announced. In all honesty the community was better then this. That is why I get frustrated and want at times to leave the boards period. Because there is more misinformation then information. There are people that talk tech but big tourney winners don't contribute jack. In heroclix the big tourney winners gave to the community a ton. The biggest of these was Cramcompany who won 2 or 3 Wizard worlds back to back and wrote strong analysis of pieces and play styles. It just like people just don't give a **** half of the time unless name calling and drama is involved here. To say you have a good community but no tech or lineups is displayed is a farce. What UFS has a is small groups of people who go to big tournies and associate with one another and that's the core community.

If you want proof of how much better the heroclix community was look at the average traffic hcrealms had a year ago in its various forums and you will find it is double traffic of what UFS boards have now according to each sub forum.

Your job has a lot of pressure. But most of that pressure comes because there is crap expected of a scout other then running games. There is little a scout can do to contribute to the game other then run local tournies. Scouts could do more but the system is not set up for them to do more.

@dut

Here is the thing about looking at proxies. Once I do that I don't buy again. Period. I no I have no chance of winning the best prize in gaming ever. I'm tactile that is why I loved heroclix more then UFS. Once I have perfect decks that don't cost me anything I get bored and quit. If I playtest unreleased stuff I'm thinking to correct not to curb stomp people. There is no one around that will come to the shop from the other major play groups. So if my playgrop goes proxy we have no need to go back. We aren't looking to win Worlds or any other major tourney. So we would never buy product again because once you are at the top and reality sets in on how expensive or hard to get this deck is it starts to wear you down. I'm never ever going to play anyone on this board ever!

Some would say then why am I concerned about x, y, and z hitting my shop. Because when they standardize prize support and everyone knows what is going out in a month and people want playsets of strong cards they will pick on weak shops. People won't drive a good distance without what they thing is an autowin. I saw it in every other game I played.

In the end I guess I was spoiled by the heroclix community and I am tired trying to bring some of those positive elements here.

darklogos said:

::Raises hand - Former Hero Clicks player - who still has a Galactus on display at home::

I'm familiar with HC Realms, and it was a very nicely run fan site. For what it's worth - there was a Scout forums back when Sabertooth Games owned UFS. However it was little more then a clubhouse for the scouts.

Now... as we're going way off topic... I agree with you 100% on the lack of contributions from the "top players" towards the community as a whole. I've complained about this for a long time. I've done what I can to try and generate content and articles. I went so far as to pay people out of my pocket to write articles .

I could use some more voices challenging people to write articles and comment. I used to ask scouts to post their winning decks. Most responded "I don't have time to ask for deck lists, let alone type them up."

And yes - these boards are full of far too much Drama. Back when FFG had us mod the boards, I tried to crack down on the drama, and try to drive a more serious discussion. People weren't interested in it. Maybe I approached it the wrong way... who knows?

At this point the conversation is drifting far away from the PotM proposed errata.

A separate thread of "How you as a player can make UFS better." would be a fantastic thread, and I would love to see someone else getting on the soapbox about it.

But to wrap up, and touch on your comment to Dut - Step up - what are the decks and deck lists your guys are running? Why are your players "so bad" from a small store?

Heck... until Tekken was released, and the new rotation was announced, my shop had only been getting 4 or 5 players show up per week. Despite coming from such a small turnout, I still managed top make the top cut for Legacy Worlds, and then Top 8 Standard Worlds as well. If I can do that coming from a small shop, with a small playgroup - why can't someone else?

Part of the issue is not seeing serious decks played. There are a lot of assumptions that are proven wrong when I read the wording of the starter rules. The biggest example of this is the wording that says a character card counts as a foundation. Well when you are stacking foundations like how we play then we thought that extra versions could be used to pay for character cost so you can use character forms over and over again. That was not clear on the starter. Another problem we had for a bit was the fact that if it didn't say commit that you didn't have to commit the card. So we were committing just about all our cards even if it was a free E. There is a lot that has to be watched and picked up. Every youtube video of the game is crap. You can't see jack.

Next our play methods are not optimal. Everyone except me looks to build characters off their set cards. They don't diversify past that because building on symbol in b3 was annoying. Also they like how their characters operate with the designed cards assigned to them. So any min max deck could come in and pretty much wipe the floor with us other then maybe Ivy. I build decks with what I have. I have a Rashotep deck but I play control heavy. I built a psudeo Paul deck and a Psudeo Hilde deck. They didn't quite work out and lost to easily. So I can't really even defend my own shop without heavy regulation. Truth of the matter we really just play theme. We don't have a lot of money to go to big tournies and the closest venue is 2 hours away. Why get hardcore when everyone is having fun?

Then, you shouldn't worry about T2K's at all, dude. Theme decks overall just can't do that, except MAYBE Ragnar. Against a 7 HS guy.

LordAggro said:

or Hilde...

Honestly - what state are you in? What are the actual odds that players who don't drive 2 hours now to come and "roll your shop" are going to start driving 2 hours now?

With all due respect - if you guys have minimal collections, and you're asking for the game to be changed, so that your minimal collections can compete... the game has already been slimmed down as far as it can go. Asking for changes because you don't want to acquire anymore cards, has me shake my head a little. When I played Hero Clix, I knew at the time I was going to be spending $85-$100 to acquire a Night Crawler (clobbering time). When I no longer felt like sinking money into Clix to keep up (when they introduced rotation), I'd play in events where I could use what figs I had. I'd play with friends, and we'd have fun playing the game for the sake of playing the game. I understood that it was a collectible game that kept releasing new product, and I understood that unless I kept acquiring product, I wasn't going to be able to play with the big kids.

I mean seriously - take 2 Astrid Starter decks, mash them together. You've now got a deck that can win in a current environment tournament, especially in a play area with limited cards. You've just spent $20.

Honestly - if everyone is having fun now - Keep doing what you're doing, and have fun.

In the eventuality that some big bad from out of town shows up, at that point in time start looking to see what your options are, and how you can solve the puzzle.

RE: Starter rules not being as in depth as your group needed to understand all the little nuances of playing the game, don't sweat it. That's why they're the starter rules, and then there are the Advanced Game Rules. Most games that I've played have some sort of "quick start" rules, which are what the rules in the starter are.

Antigoth said:

sorry for going off topic (even more than it needs to be ) but you guys really need to make some kind of knowledge that the advanced rules exist. I just found out like two weeks ago about it even existing! Like maybe consider sending retailers a core rule book or posting links to it anyway you can as for my group I just printed it off for my store to keep a copy of it. (to my surprise I cut down a forest and depleted all of my ink cartridges!)

Luthon said:

In the Rules Q&A section I have a stickied post that says "please read before posting" that directs to the AGR. Sadly that's pretty much the extent of what I can do on that.

I like your suggestion, and in a perfect world the AGR would be printed and available in starters. Sadly it's not a perfect world. Since I'm in the middle of working on the revision to the AGR (V 2.1?) I'll probably hold off on pushing FFG to send out a printed copy, until the next revision is done. I'm pray that I'll nail this to the point where we won't have to make another revision until the next base set is released.

Antigoth said:

Precedence shows your prayers will be unanswered. :( :( :(

But keep on truckin'. I appreciate it. I think.

Antigoth said:

I'm not asking for anything to be changed. I'm for path staying the same because I think it would send a bad sign to the community. I think the current meta needs to grow before we axe more cards. I think Yimfang and other cards that blow stuff up are more then enough to stop or at least hinder POTM. As I stated a few pages back. If turn 2 kill is acceptable then I have no problems with the card. I argue the balance of things from the deck building forum, feedback from other players, looking at the cards myself in search for counters and how viable/accessible are those counters. My positions are based off of intel from the boards. If that intel exagerated then I'm reflecting back what I have taken in.

In the past about 2-3 months ago we hadn't fully looked at what was the closest shop to us. I wanted change then for sure because I saw what brokness it was and knowing we had no chance to do anything to win. I've seen people drive good distance for prize support. Before it was a risk because of the inconsistancy of distribution. When that is fixed and we have universal distribution of the same prize support that will all change. People who are serious about winning serious tournies will travel to get the gems out of prize support. If something becomes must have people will travel to get it. The only way I see that as avoidable is if the same prize support package gets alternated every other month for a total of 2 months. That way power cards reach saturation.

Clarification. I've seen people drive long distances for prize support in other games I've played.

@ Kiit

Hilde can only turn 2 low vit characters off a theme deck, and only becuase sirens + dual wielding is 16 damage. Keep in mind you have to check a 6 then a 5 to do this, and still have resources to reduce or increase the damage therafter. So it is 'very' rare.

@ darklogos

It seems most of your reasons for playing and benchmarks are skewed. No offense, but anyone who 'wouldn't play me or someone else on the forums' simply becuase we may be too agressive or bring too competitive of decks doesn't sit well with me. You play the game for the challenge of bettering yourself which is equal to fun, if you aren't playing it to lose and evolve then you aren't taking the right approach to any game...

Even worse you indicate that people travel for prize support, and that this would be the primary reason to travel means to me that the game isn't worth playing in the first place. Anyone who travels for prize support or becuase they have a 'chance' to win isn't travelling for the right reasons. You travel, first and foremost, to challenge yourself in different ways. I guess I understand that this is a 'collectible' game, and that some people would travel simply to attain a better collection. But you can't neglect the word 'game' from that equation either. A game is meant to be played for the game, not for the prestige or metal that accompanies doing well... If all you want is a collection, or a more rudimentary version of fun, I suggest you play a game where everyone has the same resources, and where the game isn't dictated by innovation, but moreso by game decisions. A 'build a deck' game is dicated by both.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't surprise me that your view of the ufs community, and in particular the forums, is in contradiction to most. You don't seem to have the competitive spirit that ensures that you will have fun with the game, a spirit that is synonomous with fighting games, games in general, and with what the forums are for. They exist to share experiences, not to shape a future experience in the hopes of replacing a void or to make the game like something you already enjoy or have previously enjoyed.

I'm sorry, I know I sound preachy, and 'this is for this, and black is black, and white is white', and that is wrong of me . All I can say is what I think a game is, and what I think forums should be for. At the very least, by me taking these steps, you can get some insight into where I come from. I am moved to speak out of line becuase: your discussion pieces, and from when you first started posting, make a greater deal of sense to me now, and it now appears I won't be travelling to play you for the same reasons that I would have before.

RE: proxies, I don't understand. When you indicate prize support and travel would be to acquire it appears to me that you value the card, and not simply the mechanic. On the other hand you indicate you are having trouble simulating the mechanic in your play group, and seemed to be asking for help to better your player's experience and take them to a new level. A part of this is being willing to play what you consider 'brokeness' and you come up with a counter 'brokeness' and rinse and repeat. I have never proxied for a game, followed by never buying the product again, and I highly doubt your group would experience this if they proxied the odd card. HIGHLY DOUBT.

In any case, I hope you start looking at the game from a different perspective, I hope I can look at the game from your perspective again, and that you continue to share your opinion and viewpoints, but ultimately that we both still have fun.

I have to stop preach-typing becuase I have to go put together some Kingdom Hearts decks, 5 friends are travelling 3+ hours to play at my local shop (I've travelled to them many times before too), and lo and behold, their reason isn't for prize support, it is to have fun, and believe you me that involves kicking my ass with the nastiest decks they and we have thought of (or will try to ^^).

- dut

ps. Please stop using Ivy as a benchmark for agressive play, everyone will be better for it!

dutpotd said:

You just described Dominion. Which is OMG such a frakking awesome game.

dutpotd said:

dutpotd said:

Here is the thing since I hit a nerve of yours by accident. I'm not saying all people who travel are only doing it for prize support. My issue is that I have seen lots of players from varioius games travel just to get prize support because of strong meta cards/pieces presented at what would be assumed weak gameshops. The shark element gets annoying and its unavoidable in any game.

Proxies are a mindset issue for me personally. I've play tested different card games and proxies are addictive for me. When I play tested the only thing that brought me back in was knowing the fact that since x and y was broke it was going to be fixed and I wasn't going to see the final version of the card. Proxying perfect decks to play and autopilot annoy me. The first is that I know that inspite of the skill i may or may not have I can't go out and do anything with it. When I got into proxy playing in the past for testing meta decks and other things I moved to only playing proxy decks. I realized I couldn't buy what I was playing and when I played with the cards I had I felt that deck was a waste inspite it being the best I had. I loose contentment which I value more.

Thing is I am competitive. I like to win a lot. I saw how unfun that made my envoirment. I am a person that hits a certain level and doesn't want to go back. When it came to heroclix i was very competitive. Getting the key pieces was a lot easier. I played 4 venues in Tulsa every week just to play the best players around and prove I was one of them. But there aren't 4 places to play in Tulsa that has UFS. There is one. I don't move at my pace but the pace of my community. That pace right now is slow. I can go hard and possibly kill people's intrest in the game. At the same time I have a personal value of what I want to see in game play.

My view on the community is again what I saw in the heroclix community. There was more openness there then here. Competitiveness mainfests in different ways. One of the things I don't like is the overall secret nature of the boards. The lack of the champions giving advice. I've already said this before in many different ways. I can say there are some outstanding posters like Lord Aggro and yourself who give out a good amount of info. But the average mean of contribution is low.

In the end I may just need to walk away from this game. My game play expectations don't match, I'm looking for a different community element, and I have no aspirations for the higher eschelon of the game. I just need to find a way of getting another player to be scout.