Tagrineth said:

was it an epic block? to make the all thing epic. and thus, the epic fail of the epic 20 damage?

Tagrineth said:

Cause you know, Life has no free speed pumps or anything? Why don't you shut the eff up for once unless you actually have something viable to contribute... Oh yeah and isn't swearing not allowed on these forums?

Anyways back on topic. Folks who say "just block it" are deluding yourselves. Go ahead and block King's 30 25-30 damage throw and take 13-15 damage. Block the usually 7 speed low (just with a Drossel and a Robe), attack. Sure rock out

B-Rad said:

Shinji swears plenty himself, and even when I've reported his posts that had swearing, nothing happens. So, frankly, who ******* cares? Besides, you can't honestly tell me you've never wanted to tell Shinji to STFU, especially when he makes such an out-of-line and irrelevant post as he did in the Absurd Strength thread. Also, epic "No" posts. **** that guy.

Life has exactly two free speed pumps - Robes and Drossel - both of which follow along with POTM being assets . Life does also have Purified Body and Keeper of the Watchers, but both are fairly flaky. I keep taking Purified Body out of decks again because it just doesn't work , and Keeper isn't much better. So looking at those two highly devastating free +2 speed boosts, you're looking at a total - in an Ivy deck - of up to about 8 speed max (from the 4L2 attack).

So assume you kept three blocks (all three zones) with an average modifier of +2, that means a check at 10. The thing is, it's into a completely clear card pool , and Ivy's 3diff options that are good with POTM lack Stun. Okay, so she could be using Pommel Smash - but even then, one Torn Hero and she definitely won't be calling any Stuns. If you kept that few foundations open on your opponent's turn, you deserve it for overextending .

The best thing Ivy's going to do with POTM is buffing the last attack in a long string with it, in which case she's pulled off her gimmick and is probably killing you anyway. I will admit that foundations -> POTM'd attack is cool and all, but it's nothing spectacular - I do it in my Lu Chen deck and usually it fails to kill - even with Robes and multiple ShadoWar backing it. Needs a much stronger speed buff to be effective, the likes of which doesn't yet exist in this format.

Now, Throws on the other hand are a whole other issue and one I will agree on - but there will be cards coming to deal with that, for example the Power of the Edge reprint severely hinders King's Form-based gimmick.

If people would just pack answers for it then it would stop being run so much im starting to realize that im not needing it in my siegfried deck and that im already killing by the time i go to use it.

Yeah its a stupid +15 or so damage and it seems dumb on paper but trust me if you want to do something about it then you can!

while your spending your energy pointing out why it should be banned then why dont you go build a deck that beats the crap out of it and then see how you feel i bet youll feel 100x better

Ok so if your getting stunned out why arent you playing something like torn hero to commit that path

Your opponent playing king and they play a throw? blank it with ka techniques or memories or a nightmare depending on what symbol your opponents playing.

Speaking of path not backfiring......i was playing a game against astrid who wasnt running path and i had one out....he used his 2nd enhance on communing and just barely blocked my last attack due to getting that extra +2 before i could stum him out.

i dont get why this is still going on....do you want this game to be handed to you on a silver platter and be a mindless game of i dont have to do anything or do you actually want to play a game where you have to do things? if there arent cards you have to deal with whats going to make this game fun?

Speaking of astrid.....why isnt there a ban astrid thread? she does the same thing as path does and shes in play all game there are more answers to path then her and all i hear is errata path or ban path

And on the topic of making it a terrain im pretty sure they didnt because it gave it more possibilities you could do more with it like blowing up your opponents cards.....

I dont know maybe its just me but this game is in the best place its been in a long time and people still want to ***** and moan....what exactly is going to make you happy?

Tagrineth said:

My response is best summed up in the following:

Da_ghetto_gamer said:

Mwahaha walls of text own! Anyways I for one don't want Path banned, I'm just pointing out the power level is a little steep.

As for Astrid, she's a little ludacrous I completely agree, but then again anyone who has Fire is completely ludacrous.

Oh and Tag, I've never wanted to tell Marco to stfu. While some of his stuff is longwinded (to be polite) some of his arguments actually don't suck. Anyways, I can see what you're saying, but two foundations, random poke, Gnomes, Gnomes/random poke with Path... That's gonna hurt

lius said:

What I said doesn't apply now becuase there are a lot of characters that don't need more assets (there are more important things to some charcters than +10 damage, i.e. surviving to throw it or more... one more foundation or weapon card to throw it in the first place) and don't need damage pump. The latter is Astrid, the former is Hilde. There are other cases as well of course, a lot of damage Heiachi and others can throw damage simply by discarding character cards. Most, and I noted 4/5 of my decks, do utilize Path... But if Path also destroyed my oponents ability to throw an additional 10+ damage back at me, you bet I'd use it in 5/5!

In any case, I've pointed out my thoughts on this. Wait sets or errata it properly, simply change the damage pump so it is still a secondary/tertiary ability that helps out, but not one that is abusable by influencing the value of x, and better by certain characters... Of course, banning is banning, and it wouldn't be anywhere near the end of the world if this card got banned.

I also wanted to say I always listen to what Tag has to say, and his latest post where he alludes to answers to throws (there's other good stuff in that post too!) is a good one.

I'm with Ghetto, the game is **** fun. But I don't pretend not to understand the communities desires to make it 'even' better, this is, after all, why I post and will continue to and as respectfully and constructively as possible.

I'd also sooner call for 'only useable twice this turn, or commit this card after its second use, etc.' on Astrid's pump than I'd call for a removal of a card that can be managed and that can be abused by almost everyone (to different extents of course), but this is after a lot of playtesting against Astrid in particular - so I'm biased.

- dut

King and Path don't scare me. Here's why. If king is in a position to use his ability, then the odds are very strong he does not have another attack in hand. As we have already established his attacks are not hard to block, so even at 20 dam, your taking 10 a turn. that will kill the average player on turn 4. Now however I as the opposing player know WHAT CARDS ARE IN MY OPPONENTS HAND. All his blocks are revealed, no suprises. Also guess what, those attacks he didnt have in his hand are mostly his blocks in the deck in the current rotation, so hes really in a prone position. A good deck should be structured well enough to be able to kill a player when they show you they are open. If you deck cannot then it is probably not a very good deck.

Also playing a POTM means you cant use it untill your next turn (unless your reversal based). Meaning your opponent has the full ability to abuse your own asset without sacrificing anything. Double edged sword and all that. Anyone running SSS loop will be able to draw silly cards, players who are packing symbol abilities will be able to draw mass cards and not leave themselves open to be smashed in the face, and people running ascending zephyr will be politely rewarded for using it and sometimes be able to get 2 mometum when they really shouldn't have.

So back to point A. The card isnt that much of an issue. A Stand off in a stun deck is poised to do just as much if not more damage to an opponent in the long run than a potm, and can be committed for checks. Sometimes all the damage in the world dosent matter with out speed to make it hit, and often players may wish they had a robes or shadowar instead. And as i pointed out in earlier posts, a lot of times its 20 someone damage at the end of a chain when really all you needed was 2. It dosent matter if you kill your opponent by a million or just enough at that point.

The issue with Ivy that gets crazy that makes Path of the Master "unblockable" is Cross madness. Once you Purified Body on Cross Maddness twice your opponent has to put in effort to block. Not mention Tira has a lot of speed pump cards that nice to push Cross madness through. If you get 2 off in a string of attacks that last attack is going to be crazy fast. If you have blocked at all that turn then you just made things harder on yourself.

I'm glad my play group doesn't have the card. I don't have to deal with it. We don't travel so it doesn't effect me at all. I'm just trying to be constructive.

If turn 2 kills are ok then there is nothing wrong with the card and it being terrain is a moot point because it is within the vision of the game.

In all fairness the thing I've observed is that the community wants a rotating format. Some fast games, slow games, hijinks, and mass control one shoting. Every 6-8 months people want change. Part of the issue to that is unlike other games I don't see local scouts changing up the tournies very often. I've looked through a lot of tourney listings and theme or Street fighter only etc events hardly ever come up. If your local play group feel its that big of an issue just locally ban it or limit it 2 per deck. I lot of the NPE and other problems people talk about would not be an issue for the local play group if the Scout put their footdown once and a while. If your a scout house rule it to be not broken. Report back your findings so we have something to base informed decissions off of.

Does turn 2 kills apeal to me? Not at all. I actually despise the idea but its what this game is about. The card will be banned where I scout at. If anyone ever decided to get a wild hair up their butt and comes to Tulsa to play UFS just keep that in mind.

Protoaddict said:

Umm... You are right about King, to an extent. Trust me though, King and his ability are very strong becuase 'most' decks cannot turn on a dime and change their attack lineup to countermatch their opponents blocks, and there isn't enough draw or select recursion to truly take advantage of one turn knowledge, and one turn is all you have, trust me. King doesn't just throw one attack a turn, he throws the same number as any other 6hs Earth character, i.e. 2/3 attacks and then a 3/4 with his ability... Damage pump that doesn't commit and he is killing turn 3 solidly against almost anyone.

Your talk about PotM and the opponent using it is wrong, the R: (to draw cards) can't be used by the opponent, simply they can play the abilities, and who would run SSS loop if they couldn't play the enhances? Same with Ascending, who would run it if they couldn't get momentum, an action card isn't worth a zone change, there are much more effective ways to do this...

The card isn't much of an issue, it isn't 'not' much of an issue either. It has a strong presence in the meta and for good reason.

@ Darklogos, the reason players like turn 2s and 3s is becuase of the stall that they have seen. It is like a hill, once you survive the uphill climb (the start) it is all downhill from there for control/stall decks... This is when the game goes from exciting and fun to extremely boring.

It is extremely hard to build and balance a game that gives enough defense (or reduces offense) so that it can't kill turn 2/3 without making it 'even' harder to kill turn 4+ against an opponent with even more resources to defend with. i.e. the only way to 'cap' as you put it and force 3 turns without also forcing infitinite turns would be to take away all damage reduction and defensive abilities aside from blocks, severely simplifying the game so that an extra turn can be had but not ten extra turns... Not easy and the grass is always greener, or is it?

- dut

Protoaddict said:

Protoaddict said:

This. Thanks you

Also, i still dont understand how people are "sky is falling" with potm when characters like bryan fury can kill you on turn 2 consistently with just foundations and checks, jin can turn two you with AND use his whole staging area for whatever he wants (sometimes turn 1 if he is on the draw and has good hand/build), and astrid can KILL YOU WITH POMMEL SMASH ON YOUR OWN TURN.

King and Ivey are the biggest abusers of POTM. Yes absolutely. But Without these two cards, watch Ivey try to break out of stand off or multiple man behind the masks. Watch king try kill his opponent before turn 3-4. Watch christie... well do anything.

And seriously, Stand Off is the most overpowered card in the format and nobodys makes threads calling for it be errata'd/banned.

dutpotd said:

I've been on the both sides of game design in various ways. Stopping turn 2 kills is bad form in my opinion. If the game becomes uphill on turn 3-4 then I would say that is a game development problem and rules problem. At the same time I recognize that the changes needed to do that would put the game in a 2.0 format that would kill it. Thing is that making turn 3-4 kills wouldn't be hard from a game desgin format looking at the basic mechanics of this game. First you set caps on all mechanics. Then you increase hp by no more then 1/3. Prohibit anything that breaks or ignores game mechanics. Make cards that negate each other directly in a 3 to 5 point circular formation. Be very strict about what each symbol has access to. Make really strong cards have 2 symbols or less. I could go on for a bit. Since turn 2's are the norm and established goal of the game then people aren't keeping this precept in their mind and again we are wasting our time talking about it. The card is not broken by the community's and game design own premise. This card isn't revitilize so you can keep healing to full.

The venue I judge at we play long games and have fun. We go to turn 8 or 10. The only short games happen if you play against our Ivy player or our Ragnar player if he gets a great hand starting off. Since super healing is gone you can't stall anymore. You have to be agressive but at the venue I played at only a handful of times did I feel i didn't even have a chance to play. That was when the Ivy player laid out 4 foundations on turn 1 and killed me with switching weapon styles on turn 2. That was frustrating because I could not respond at all. Blocking didn't save you against Ivy because it only gets harder to stop things from going through. In block 3 she wasn't much and there was no NPE there. But our Ivy player plays other decks so I don't see it every week. I play other things then Rashotep every week. We play based on our community.

All in all are people valuing turn 2 kills if its done to them? Is it seen as fair? If so play on but don't come to my venue with it.

Ivy will be weaker with the POTE reprint when it hits.

Turn 3ish seems to me like the ideal turn to go for kills, usually. Much later than that, you get frustrating mass-foundation wars with who can pass the most checks in a turn - attacks get blocked too easily and you have way more foundations than you need to pass all the attacks you drew for the turn even with bad checks. Turn 2 feels too early, usually, but a format that supports T2Ks is a much healthier one than one where they aren't possible, as we've seen big time.

What is POTE? I have no clue what that is.

Power of the Edge

Power of the Edge

Antigoth said:

Again, understandable. As I've said before, I respect your position and appreciate the the time and energy you've put into the game, as a volunteer, no less. I don't envy your position in the least when I think about the asinine stuff you must hear on a regular basis from those who have no concept of what you do for UFS. I had to lol at the Street Fighter comment, man. Some people. /sigh

@ Tinman [in my best Sandler voice]: Shum buddy's clo-sha!

B-Rad said:

a few months ago I tried to report swearing in a thread, and this is the reply from FFG that I got.

"There is no rule against swearing on the forums. As most of our audience are adults, we assume they can handle some adult language. The question becomes, if we begin banning certain words, where do we stop?

We will remove posts with epithets regarding race, religion, sexual orientation, or the like if they are pointed out to us, but swearing is not banned.

For reference, here is the "Guide to Forum Use" from the website.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=9&efcid=5&efidt=25

Yours,

Jeremy Stomberg
FFG"

Antigoth said:

Hell no. If I didn't manage to do that, ain't nobody gonna do that to you.

darklogos said:

Maybe we are going to far with this, turn 2 kills are very rare and require a) luck on checks first turn, b) luck on cards in hand come second, c) the opposing character to likely have sub 25 vitality, and d) the opposing player to have all the wrong blocks, no damage reduction, etc. etc.

i.e. even a turn 2 kill deck will probably only kill turn 2 1/8 games 'if lucky' and being that most of its components are agressive, may lose if it doesn't kill turn 2/3.

Its a card game, like a fighter, when you are perfected (and by an equally skilled opponent) you are in respect and awe, you don't have a tantrum or 'not have fun', it is pushing the envelope that makes everyone a better player and competitive spirit to get better is truly what is fun about any game.

Card games are like puzzles, your deck has a problem with something, then you strive to solve the problem. This isn't some willy-nilly "I get to play 5 turns every game or I quit scenario". There is luck and skill to a game with cards, and sometimes when they go hand in hand and against an opponent on the opposite end of the luck and skill spectrum crazy things can happen.

Most players build decks to 'win more often than not', not to 'win by a certain turn'. As such, most of our block 4 games go to turn 4-6, with some back and forth, some blocking, some pumping, and some reducing. Sometimes, and certain characters in particular (those with lower vitalities), will kill turn 3 on average, that said most opposing characters can take advantage of their low vitality and do the same to them. Very rarely, but usually in the case where one deck checks well and draws into the correct cards will a deck kill turn 2, and again, usually against a sub 25 vit character.

Out of curiosity, how would a turn 2 kill not be fair? Both players have the same access to the same cards, either play could build a deck and get lucky and kill turn 2 in rare circumstances, only if one player had acccess to something another player didn't could you ever begin to make the unfair accusation?

The thread's topic has gone way out of whack, and for that I apologize.

On topic, Path enables turn 2 kills moreso than arguably any other card in the meta. Sure it also requires the opponent to not be able to block, but turn 2 with some stun and/or a 5 speed attack? It's going to happen sometimes.

More on topic, not many people seem to think it should be changed to terrain... I agree and think that would exacerbate the problem.

I do agree that Path is a semi-hard-issue in the meta, and albeit an agressive card and agro is fun, becuase it is not exactly a 'risk reward' balance.

Things that enable turn 2 kills should have 2 or 1 checks, that is my opinion, and I see Path as being something that should be looked at now or later with respect to this ideology.

Compare Path to Feline Spike... Feline Spike required momentum (some characters were better at getting this), Path requires cards in the card pool (some characters are better at getting this). Feline Spike could be 24 damage turn 2, and could be blocked. So can 'almost any attack', (one with stun 2, one with speed pump or draw, one as a throw) pumped by Path on turn 2 with the card pool setup required... All I'm saying is that Path has a 2 difficulty and a 5 check that can be played turn 1 followed by a very high damage attack turn 2, but with significantly less risk than a card in the past block that had a 1 check and was ultimately errated to one character's use.

Enablers (very good cards) are fine, but they should come with appropriate risk reward attributes and I don't think Path offers this. And no, having your opponent play one of the 3 odd symbol specifics that matter (assuming they couldn't already do so...) is not the same type of risk as have a low check or high difficulty...

- dut

I'm ok with being killed turn 2 myself, because when it does happen its ******* epic. It doesn't happen every game like most people on here are making it out to be which makes it all that much more special and awesome. We have plenty of games go to time as well but not in the same boring way as it used to be. When time is called both players are sitting at around 2-3 health, lots of attacks were thrown not just a grey card build up that went nowhere.

If people are getting extremely upset about it I'd reccomend taking a step back and realize you are playing game i.e. its for fun.Usually when my playgroup plays we are just there to have fun to see who came up the scariest deck of the night, then go play some video games next door.

As far as potm is concerned, I'm not the biggest fan in the world of it but I really dont want anymore bans until we see how the "meta" fleshes out. Potm is a format defining card no doubt but is extremly easy to deal with. Personally I run soul wave as a 2x main board and 2x side board to deal with assets and the discard decks that are popping up I could go crazier with hate but thats all I've needed so far. Soul wave is just a really solid card.

if you have them, run scrolls of the abyss - it has really good secondary abilities. scroll of dawn is a little iffy on the secondary abilities but carries the same asset breaking ability.

That's what I'm doing; running a set of Scroll of the Abyss. Simply because Controller of Souls is still impossibly and inexplicably expensive for it to even matter.

Come on, secondary market sellers: Olcadan's is gone. Give it up, no one's paying $25 for a copy of this crap when they can get Scroll for $2.50 on the same **** site.

guitalex2008 said:

True. But destoy for destroy is different than cancel and ready...

In any case, I agree CoS is overcosted and probably should have been a rare and not ultra-rare.

Scrolls are really good, and for more reasons than just to kill assets, the enhance ending one is great, as is the recheck, and if you are using Path of the Master you are laughing becuase they are both symbol specifics.

The only reason scrolls don't see a lot of play is fire, and the lack of it on either of them. That said, fire doesn't need them...

For assets most death decks should consider running scroll and path, as should most life decks.

- dut

dutpotd said:

Turn 2 kills aren't fair in my opinion because if the person that goes first gets a turn 2 kill off the person who went second didn't have a chance to do anything other then attempt to be defensive.

Here is the thing I don't have access to the same cards you and other players have. If you don't have money and luck to get play sets of the great power cards then you are at a disadvantage. Is money as big off a factor as it was before? No it is not but key cards are just plan not available in some situations or insanely costed. My community invests but we don't invest hard like some others have indicated. When we buy it has to last the long term meta and fits how we play.

Thing is the boards make claims that turn 2 kills are common or expected. Thing is no one comes up and says "That's a bit rare and only happens if you play a sub 20 hp character." So what am I to think? I've played games in which the game was 2 turns I was killed and couldn't do jack to avoid it. No setup, no response, no positioning, just dead. I quit those games. They promote NPE and insane amount of cash investment. As a person who is trying to learn and expand meta I need to have a realistic base of what I NEED TO BUILD DECKS TOWARDS. I don't like the lying and yanking about what is common and what is not. If turn 2 is goal then its goal. If turn 3 is goal then I need to think toward that. But I'm trying to take people seriously and relaying info to my playgroup and trying to make my playgroup better.

I'm not trying to be up in people's face or going off on people. But I would prefer straight answers on what is expected and what is acceptable and what is not. I need to know to regulate at my playgroup and stop, if it comes, certain elements from causing problems.