Most wanted has been hit with errata to not allow fighters to gain the extra dice...

Bugger, I hadn't spotted that

The most effective thing I can come up with is one or two AF's with x17 turbolasers. The ability to negate most of the Victory's redirects is going to be the biggest boon to the rebels in this wave. That obstacle is primarily what makes the VSD such a pain to take down right now, to the point that's it's almost impossible in 180 pt games.

The AF has the range, the side batteries, and the agility to dictate the terms of the engagement between it and the VSD. Once people start to see the importance of x17s, Vics are going to start dropping way more frequently.

Something like this?

You can't build a list that just counters a single VSD. Go ahead and circle the VSD, a Gladiator and my fighters are waiting for you. There is no meta yet and to even speculate is finding a needle in a haystack. We have no idea what it will be like to play with 300 points with the imperials flying at least 2 ships and fighters. I think variety will win in this game.

EDIT: Nevermind.

Anyone figure out a decent counter to the Demolisher w/engine techs and expanded launchers beyond just taking it on the chin and making it pay after it makes its attack run? That thing is scary.

Anyone figure out a decent counter to the Demolisher w/engine techs and expanded launchers beyond just taking it on the chin and making it pay after it makes its attack run? That thing is scary.

Shhhhh

Anyone figure out a decent counter to the Demolisher w/engine techs and expanded launchers beyond just taking it on the chin and making it pay after it makes its attack run? That thing is scary.

Shhhhh

this is the Demolisher:

this is what happens when you don't kill him from very far away:

Anyone figure out a decent counter to the Demolisher w/engine techs and expanded launchers beyond just taking it on the chin and making it pay after it makes its attack run? That thing is scary.

Shhhhh

this is the Demolisher:

this is what happens when you don't kill him from very far away:

I for the life of me can't figure out how to kill that thing without it at least eating a corvette first.

Edit (explanation)- It can move into Black Die range from outside of long range...BOOM.

considering the Corvette is the closest thing we have to a Tie Fighter in Armada, we'll have to come to terms with the strategy of "acceptable loses"

But that is a strategy. If you're opponent comes racing his 80+ point ship for some crummy little corvette, it's a move in your favor (as funny as it may seem, watching THE first ever star wars ship go down in flames). So, most likely, he won't do it which means you can screen your important ships with your crappy ships (or the ships that the demolisher won't want to expose itself for)

In the meantime, you throw all the dice at him

If the demo exposes himself thinking that rebel ships aren't particularly scary at close range till we get the mon cal "Shrimp Frigate," rebs do have a close range terror: squadrons.

It's kind of like how Howlrunner in X-wing miniatures "protects" herself despite having to stay in formation. Despite how easily she dies, she presents a very unattractive target where there's a bunch of guns pointed in the attacker's direction.

I think fighters will win this game. Much like WWII, Carriers and fighters were more valuable than any other ship. I think you will see that in this game, with Fighters being more important than having huge guns to fire. Also throw in some smaller more agile ships and you really have a problem if you are on the opposite end of that.

The most effective thing I can come up with is one or two AF's with x17 turbolasers. The ability to negate most of the Victory's redirects is going to be the biggest boon to the rebels in this wave. That obstacle is primarily what makes the VSD such a pain to take down right now, to the point that's it's almost impossible in 180 pt games.

The AF has the range, the side batteries, and the agility to dictate the terms of the engagement between it and the VSD. Once people start to see the importance of x17s, Vics are going to start dropping way more frequently.

You're seeing the Space Whale like I am. When that ship gets past the front arc and begins to circle a VSD it has the advantage. If the VSD stays for the Broadside battle it will lose and if it try's to run it opens its rear up for the Mark II to pound it from the rear.

The Imperial players will have to keep the Mark II from getting into a VSD's flank without being supported. And when the Imperials are supporting their VSD that means more of their fleet will be used to fend off the Space Whale. So, what to do with the rest of your fleet?

Afaik, a VSD with enhanced armament matches the AF in terms of side arc firepower, and could employ intel officers as well to effectively cancel that single evade token. Once evade is out of the equation, mon mothma is useless on an AF and the space whale is less durable than the VSD. With 3 (4 if concentrate fire) reds, we are looking at 2,25 (3) average damage, so as long as you roll average, the x17 is not going to weigh in that much. And pointswise, I can bring a dominator VSD I with the same exact upgrades (gunnery team, intel officers) plus enhanced armament for 109 pts. Hell, I might take warlord title to change any excess accs to touble hits for 105. Not going to say I will not use the AF in a similar way, probably using enhanced armament instead of X17s circling the VSD - but the attrition battle is not that one-sided and pro-rebells at all.

But you are right, there are no builds that I know of that are an auto win and if I flew my Mark II like it was invincible I would be an idiot. I was just pointing out that I liked the idea of how FFG balanced the VSD with the Mark II in a way where they both have different strengths and both can be very scary when they maneuver right.

I suppose the solution to Demolisher Blitz is B-Wings and other bombers. It doesn't have THAT many shields, and you can hammer them down with close range bombing. Mon Mothma makes evades still useful at least, and I think she'll be the go-to Rebel Admiral for the future.

You'll still get hammered by it's 5 or 6 black dice forward attack (always taking expanded launchers on that thing), but at least it's only a Neb (from side) or Corvette and not an AF2 or better getting killed. You'll get to sink a ship worth twice as many points.

I think fighters will win this game. Much like WWII, Carriers and fighters were more valuable than any other ship. I think you will see that in this game, with Fighters being more important than having huge guns to fire. Also throw in some smaller more agile ships and you really have a problem if you are on the opposite end of that.

I actually feel the exact opposite, mainly because once your ships are gone, you lose. So please spend 1/3 of your points on fighters. The less ships I have to kill to win the better...

I think fighters will win this game. Much like WWII, Carriers and fighters were more valuable than any other ship. I think you will see that in this game, with Fighters being more important than having huge guns to fire. Also throw in some smaller more agile ships and you really have a problem if you are on the opposite end of that.

I actually feel the exact opposite, mainly because once your ships are gone, you lose. So please spend 1/3 of your points on fighters. The less ships I have to kill to win the better...

Point for point fighters augment ships better than other ships. Fighter heavy lists will be a little frailer and a little more deadly. But this game takes 6 turns. It's not going to end in a wipe very often.

For anyone interested in the extreme value of fighters in WW2 based naval combat, please look up the Battle of Leyte Gulf. It illustrates not only the high importance of fighter cover, but it is also the first recorded instance of Kamikaze tactics, iirc.

For the record, I think that due to the scale of the game, there will be places for fighter-light lists. That said, I think the most effective lists will include specialized fighter action, especially on the rebel side of the war.

As interesting Fighter usage in WWII is (and it is to me, I just read the wikipedia entry to the aforemention battle), I am pretty sceptical if it translates well into the Armada rulesetting.

For anyone interested in the extreme value of fighters in WW2 based naval combat, please look up the Battle of Leyte Gulf. It illustrates not only the high importance of fighter cover, but it is also the first recorded instance of Kamikaze tactics, iirc.

For the record, I think that due to the scale of the game, there will be places for fighter-light lists. That said, I think the most effective lists will include specialized fighter action, especially on the rebel side of the war.

For anyone interested in the extreme value of fighters in WW2 based naval combat, please look up the Battle of Leyte Gulf. It illustrates not only the high importance of fighter cover, but it is also the first recorded instance of Kamikaze tactics, iirc.

For the record, I think that due to the scale of the game, there will be places for fighter-light lists. That said, I think the most effective lists will include specialized fighter action, especially on the rebel side of the war.

You know this game's rules aren't a simulation of real world naval/fighter combat right? I'm not saying fighters can't be good, but using real world examples of why fighters will be good, just doesn't add up.

Well, yes and no. Yes, the game isn't designed to be about real world naval/fighter combat. It's designed to be a simulation of Star Wars capital ship combat.

But Star Wars capital ship combat is based on WW2 Naval combat. So...yes and no.

For anyone interested in the extreme value of fighters in WW2 based naval combat, please look up the Battle of Leyte Gulf. It illustrates not only the high importance of fighter cover, but it is also the first recorded instance of Kamikaze tactics, iirc.

For the record, I think that due to the scale of the game, there will be places for fighter-light lists. That said, I think the most effective lists will include specialized fighter action, especially on the rebel side of the war.

You know this game's rules aren't a simulation of real world naval/fighter combat right? I'm not saying fighters can't be good, but using real world examples of why fighters will be good, just doesn't add up.

Well, yes and no. Yes, the game isn't designed to be about real world naval/fighter combat. It's designed to be a simulation of Star Wars capital ship combat.

But Star Wars capital ship combat is based on WW2 Naval combat. So...yes and no.

I don't think I am, no. Just because they aren't the exact same thing doesn't mean they aren't similar enough that you can't learn lessons about one from the other.

Perhaps. But until you go in deeper and show those similarities, I can't take analogies as a proper guide. It is a bit like: A bread and a cake are both baked, the cake is developed from the bread, thus it is a good idea to do icing on bread.

Perhaps. But until you go in deeper and show those similarities, I can't take analogies as a proper guide. It is a bit like: A bread and a cake are both baked, the cake is developed from the bread, thus it is a good idea to do icing on bread.

I'm not even sure it's that similar...

We'll agree to disagree then.

Couldn't let this go. I think we'll still probably disagree, but to edify;

The Battle of Leyte Gulf was one of the latter battles of the Pacific theatre, an attempt by the Japanese to cut American naval supply lines. The Japanese sent a strong naval force headlined by their two brand new super-battleships, the Musashi and the Yamato. However, due to losses over the course of the war the Japanese navy found itself completely out of carriers. This left the force they sent almost completely without air support. While they were able to get some long range fighters to the actual battle, the ships were undefended in the air on the way TO Leyte Gulf. As a result, the American carriers launched continuous waves of bomber strikes on the incoming Japanese fleet. As a result, the Musashi was sunk before ever figuring into the fighting, and other ships in the fleet were badly damaged. The American forces actually fooled the far more heavily armed fleet into thinking they were more than simply a light carrier group and the Japanese disengaged. But that's neither here nor there, because you aren't fooling anyone in Armada.

Not everything will translate, don't get me wrong. At the battle of midway the Americans "crossed the T" of the Japanese fleet. I wouldn't try that in armada.

The lesson here that can be applied to Armada would be the value of fighter screens. Rebel squadrons are very much capable, if left to their own devices, of eliminating Imperial capital ships. Without a screen they probably get first strike, and they likely get to sit on their target as long as they want.

I don't expect to change your minds, I just want you to understand my point, whether you agree or not. You build the list you want. The empire never did consider a small, one-man fighter to be much of a threat.

I hope everybody will agree to keep this thread clean of off-topic.

* * *

I planned to buy an Assault Frigate because I like both the model (sic!) and variety. I really like the model rules-wise and the more I think about it the more reasons I find to include it in the list.

- It's fast;
- It's durable;
- It has good broadsides that can be further increased by enhanced armament card;
- It has the highest squadron capacity AND offensive retrofit slot for expanded hangar bay;
- It's also the cheapest way to increase fleet's squadron capacity;
- It has good titles;

My question is: is there a good reason to not include it into the Rebel list?

I hope everybody will agree to keep this thread clean of off-topic.

* * *

I planned to buy an Assault Frigate because I like both the model (sic!) and variety. I really like the model rules-wise and the more I think about it the more reasons I find to include it in the list.

- It's fast;

- It's durable;

- It has good broadsides that can be further increased by enhanced armament card;

- It has the highest squadron capacity AND offensive retrofit slot for expanded hangar bay;

- It's also the cheapest way to increase fleet's squadron capacity;

- It has good titles;

My question is: is there a good reason to not include it into the Rebel list?

Here's a real question: Enhanced Armament for the extra die, or those Turbolasers that prevent more than 1 damage from being redirected?

Extra dice are extra dice, which give a 7/8ths expected damage return.

But preventing redirects from using useless shield sections as ablative HP means your damage (and crits) get through to hull faster.

Hmmmmmmmm...