Hi

Last game we had a brief discussion about how to handle the start of your turn effects. I looked through base game rules and the faq (not very thorughly though) and couldn't find any answers. And I couldn't find anything when searching for this in the forums. Am I missing something or is this best answered with the simultaneous effect rule?

We agreed that it isn't and needed some sort of home brew decision as we didn't think that Warlock was supposed to be able to cast three spells and then gain new ones at the same time. So we decided that the best way to do this was to handle the start of the turn phase in a specicific order; 1. Abilities - 2. objects/followers - 3. spell casting.

So back to the question: Am I missing something? How do you handle this?

Hmm.... I think he was able. Since this is was his own turn, he can cast three Spells, and then decide that then he draws three Spells. According to the "simultaneous effects" rule he decides the order of the triggered effects, and therefore he may decide that his ability to gain Spells triggered after he used his "cast at the start of the turn" or "cast as required" Spells.

We have decided that once a "start of a turn" action has occurred, then it is no longer the start of a turn, and thus you can't do another "start of a turn" action.

Like the Sage, he can draw a Spell if he has none at the start of his turn and may cast 1 Spell during his turn. He cannot cast a Spell at the start of his turn and then draw a new Spell as though he had no Spells again. That is not a simultaneous effect. The Warlock is treated the same.

Yes, I agree with Ell. The Warlock draws up to his Spell limit at the start of turn, is considered to have that many Spells at start of turn, and thus may cast that many during his turn, but does not replenish Spells same turn.

To make things more complicated we had the "wand/rod" (object) from the fireland expansion which allows you to burn 1 spell and replace it with a new one at the start of the turn. That's why we agreed upon our order of actions - Ability -> object -> spellcasting. From what I can see in this discussion it seems like it's working.

Like the Sage, he can draw a Spell if he has none at the start of his turn and may cast 1 Spell during his turn. He cannot cast a Spell at the start of his turn and then draw a new Spell as though he had no Spells again. That is not a simultaneous effect. The Warlock is treated the same.

I disagree.

The Sage rules are much different than the Warlock rules. The Sage triggers his ability only if he doesn't have any Spells, while the Warlock always triggers his ability. The FAQ rule regarding the Sage was added to the FAQ to make the Sage be able to cast 1 Spell each turn. Without this FAQ rule he would be allowed to cast a Spell every second turn.

Obviously the Warlock is different, because he always is able to cast a Spell, because he gains Spells regardless if he already had some or not (unlike of course the Sage who gets a Spell only if he had not any).

But even if I were to agree with You, I would need to point out one thing. The Sage can cast 1 Spell, because he gets 1 Spell at he start of the turn. If the Warlock had 3 Spells at the start of the turn, he is able to cast 3 Spells during the turn, too. Therefore he's able to cast all of his Spells at the start of his turn, because he already started his turn and the game already counted how much Spells he can cast, and then gain a full complement of Spells. He's able to do that because according to the simultaneous effects rule he's the one to decide the order of the triggered effects, and therefore he may decide this:

counting the number of spells --> casting all of his spells --> gaining a full complement of spells

because all of that three effects appear in the same segment of the turn - the "start of the turn" segment.

To make things more complicated we had the "wand/rod" (object) from the fireland expansion which allows you to burn 1 spell and replace it with a new one at the start of the turn. That's why we agreed upon our order of actions - Ability -> object -> spellcasting. From what I can see in this discussion it seems like it's working.

The Wand of Cinders doesn't change a thing. It just adds a yet another trigger to the sequence. Considering that all of that effects:

- counting the number of spells

- casting "start of the turn" and/or "cast as required" spells

- gaining a full complement of spells

- buring a spell to get another one

happen during the same segment, the Warlock may decide the order of encountering them. Therefore he may decide that he will use the Wand on his Spells he carried over from the previous turn, or he will use it on the Spells he just received after gaining his full complement of Spells.

Totally disagree with you Nemo. The simultaneous rule only applies when two things can happen at the exact same time. Let's say the Warlock has 2 Spells when it becomes his turn. He has 8 Craft so he can draw another Spell to take his total to 3 Spells. This then entitles him to cast a maximum of 3 Spells during his turn according to the rulebook & also the example of the Sage in the FAQ. This is the simultaneous effect. Now let's suppose the Warlock decides to cast one of his three Spells which has the text "Cast before you move". He casts the Spell and resolves its effects. He now has 2 Spells. You are saying that he can replenish his Spells again. That is utterly wrong. The whole point is that once the Warlock casts a Spell, he is no longer at the start of his turn for the purposes of gaining his full complement of Spells!

The problem is that "Simultaneous Effects" can be interpreted as a rule to discipline effects that MAY happen at the same time. I've pointed out in many threads that this concept could lead to problems, and that the rule was probably created to discipline effects that DO happen at the same time, because they have the same triggering condition and there's a need to say which one goes first and which second, like in the example of the Druid landing on a Woods space with Hex on it.

When you start using "Simultaneous Effects" for other purposes, e.g. changing priorities of effects after they've been used (which is different from being "triggered"), or to get advantage from loopholes, then the rule shows its limits.

Spells are cast "during turns", not outside of them. If you're casting Spells, including Spells that are cast at the start of your turn (or at any time/as required), it means that your turn has begun and you're already counting "the Spells you started the turn with" to know how many you can cast during that turn. This implies you cannot use the "start of turn" ability to gain Spells if you've already started to cast them.

This is a ludicrously verbose explanation, but it's what happens in game terms. Obviously there's something missing in the rules (i.e. a turn sequence) that makes it all so difficult to understand. The "start of turn" phase is a rather undefined concept in Talisman, and too many effects have been timed in that overstretched moment. Some should have been part of the turn, some shouldn't have been there like those Spell gaining abilities, but we don't have a kind of "upkeep phase" in Talisman to clear things up.

We already pled for a FAQ, didn't we? Probably we should wait for 5th edition for these questions to receive an answer (= a refined "streamlined" rules system).

Plus the Digital Edition of the game handles it exactly as the Warlock & myself have explained! You can house rule it any way you want of course...

Totally disagree with you Nemo. The simultaneous rule only applies when two things can happen at the exact same time. Let's say the Warlock has 2 Spells when it becomes his turn. He has 8 Craft so he can draw another Spell to take his total to 3 Spells. This then entitles him to cast a maximum of 3 Spells during his turn according to the rulebook & also the example of the Sage in the FAQ. This is the simultaneous effect. Now let's suppose the Warlock decides to cast one of his three Spells which has the text "Cast before you move". He casts the Spell and resolves its effects. He now has 2 Spells. You are saying that he can replenish his Spells again. That is utterly wrong. The whole point is that once the Warlock casts a Spell, he is no longer at the start of his turn for the purposes of gaining his full complement of Spells!

I agree with You with Your interpretation based on the Sage FAQ. I of course see this in another light, but Your also makes sense and I agree that it might be one of the valid interpretations.

In my interpretation though the Warlock may choose the order. So he is given a more freedom of what he can do, but with the more freedom the more responsibilities also come as he must be more cautious of what he's doing, because different orders might bring different outcomes.

As The Warlock pointed out the Rulebook is missing many rules. Therefore I think we must as a base of our rules lawyering what is already available. The Simultaneous Effects rule is still pretty close to the thing we're discussing now. The only difference is hat the rule applies to the triggered effects, but there's no problem to use it to the static effects as well.

Just to clarify one thing. I know the rod of cinders sort of goes outside of this but the real reason we added objects to our actions is to make sure that you can't gain spells due to an ability then cast them and continue gaining spells with spell book(s) to use at other player turns. The only thing I'm not entirely sure is when in our sequence to let other characters cast "start of another characters turn" spells. But I guess that will sort itself out somehow.

Thanks for your input. I will continue using our system but I can see what you mean Nemo. But I thknk the Simultaneous effect rule needs clarification as well as it's almost impossible to know when it should be applied.

I'm also starting to think we'll have to do with "best guess" until the 5th edition as. Hopefully FFG will prove me wrong.

Yeah the Simultaneous effect rule is misleading indeed it uses the word "triggered" and then gives a example that includes a ability that has "May" in its description. If the Warlock has spells that all say "may cast at the start of your turn" or "may cast anytime" then I see no reason why the Warlock could not cast all three then draw three Spells, given that all the Spells are effects and he can choose the "triggered" effects order.

The Sage FAQ on page 6 of the Talisman FAQ does not say that, it says "If the Sage gains a Spell at the start of his turn, can he cast that Spell during the same turn? A: Yes. But the Simultaneous effect rule does say that in its example it gives, including a "May" worded ability (Druid landing on Woods). But of course this changes if the example given itself is wrong or was not correct in itself but thats a probleom with the FAQ and if so that puts all its "rulings" into question.

Given the Sage can only draw a Spell if he has no Spells then this FAQ entry was needed to give clarification on the issue because it was not 100% clear that the Casting Spells rule on page 13 of the main rulebook was a effect or ability.

Just to clarify one thing. I know the rod of cinders sort of goes outside of this but the real reason we added objects to our actions is to make sure that you can't gain spells due to an ability then cast them and continue gaining spells with spell book(s) to use at other player turns. The only thing I'm not entirely sure is when in our sequence to let other characters cast "start of another characters turn" spells. But I guess that will sort itself out somehow.

Thanks for your input. I will continue using our system but I can see what you mean Nemo. But I thknk the Simultaneous effect rule needs clarification as well as it's almost impossible to know when it should be applied.

I'm also starting to think we'll have to do with "best guess" until the 5th edition as. Hopefully FFG will prove me wrong.

All in all, I'm happy that I was able to show You a different point of view. In the Talisman pretty much everything depends on a personal point of view, and if one of Your players will ever come with a similar interpretation, You will know that he also has his own reasons why he thinks his interpretation is the correct one. This is one of the good aspects, but also of the bad aspects of Talisman. It comes with an unclear sheet of rules, and players themselves must decide how they want to play.

For me, we should use all the tools available whenever we see that they might be used or fit. It doesn't matter that the Simultaneous Effects rule apply only to the triggered effects. If I have to deal with static effects, and I see that the Simultaneous Effects rule could be helpful, I use it. Or a similar rule that bases on the Simultaneous Effects rule. Everything is helpful if it allows us to deal with the problem quickly .

But the best rule I would suggest is that the driver decides where the car is traveling.

A bit off topic, but since I'm running Talisman tournaments from time to time, we have also come with rules regarding the judges. If You want to read them:

- There are two judges.

- Judges are also players.

- Each table is fully autonomous. Players among themselves must agree on what rules they will be playing.

- When players disagree, they call a judge. Only the nearest judge will come (they cannot decide who they will call).

- The word of the judge is final. They cannot call another judge if they think that the first judge's interpretation is wronng.

- The judge always may remove a player from the tournament if the player is trying to quarrel with the judge.

- If the both sides are the judges, a flip of coin decides who is right.

This is what I meant by "the driver decides where the car is traveling".