You assume that the cloaking nerf was intended to affect the Fat ships in some way. That assumption is incorrect.

The reason people don't take Whisper is not because it is no longer "easy mode", it is because you cannot base your entire strategy around 4 green dice in a meta full of stress, high PS, turrets with Gunner/Predator and Soontir (soon Vader as well).

Current meta is very open around here. Last store championship here was small but everyone had a different list. Fun to see this and was interesting to play against.

Phantom cloak nerf has really helped open up the game. Vader will without any doubt DOMINATE the meta after release but eh... he should have been up there all the time being the #1 bad guy in the movies.

Im a little disappointed in scum with only the brobots and to a lesser extent Kath being competitive. Oh well they are fun overall.

The 2 ship meta is here but its still a risk. 4 Bwings can really ruin a 2 ship build. I won our last store championship with 4 bwings and had a great time.

An open meta is the most fun to play in and hopefully it stays that way.

I would also point out that Rebels have much fewer choices other than turrets and B wings atm to even compete at tournaments. Y wings get a lot of hype but they are underperforming. E wings are overpriced and X wings serve no purpose, other than biggs. Zs are great but filler. Single ordinance ships that are most rebel ships are not getting any love with bomber fixes either.

Turrets are here to stay.

Fatties are here to stay. Partial points just are not practical to implement. I get the frustration but implantation is everything at competitions. Fatties have a weakness they are low agility ships. I do expect the bomber fix to rip the fatties apart.

Rebel list building is in a really boring and bad place right now. That's exactly it: your choices are:

Falcon, YT2400

side: mass low Bs, filler Zs, Corran Horn.

That's about it folks.

No Xs, no Ys showing high results, no HWKs cuz their turrets are totally nerfed, no As unless you're a fanboy.

in contrast, imperial and scum building is nice and fine:

imp

decimator, interceptors (soontir, carnor, turr, RG), phantoms (all), lambdas, tie/f.

All with lots of different options. Unlike the Rebel fat turrets which basically have a go-to build.

Soon Tie/adv.

No Defs, no Bombers, no firesprays. But honestly, thats pretty good. Firesprays are honestly a scum feeling ship. That leaves really 2 ships with no meta role.

jesus christ with these turrets

well, at least that's a reason to be glad I can't make it to regionals

hopefully we'll get an errata. Not that I'd say they're too powerful, but honestly **** em for turning this game into an m.o.v exploiting dice fest

About 50% of Top 8 lists are turret heavy. About 2 out of 3 have at least 1 Fat Ship.

If you look at just the 13 winners, it is even more heavily skewed: 11/13 are turret heavy, and 12/13 have at least one Fat Ship.

Summary

Faction breakdown

Rebel Wins: 6

Imperial Wins: 6

Scum and Villainy Wins: 1

Winning Lists

Imperials

• (1) Dual VT-49
• (3) Chiraneau / Fel
• (1) Oicunn / Fel
• (1) Triple Interceptors (Fel / Jax / Royal Guard)

Rebels

• (1) Han / Wild Space Fringer + Mangler + Outrider
• (1) Chewie / Vrill (no Outrider)
• (1) Dash + HLC + Outrider / Chewbacca
• (1) Dash + HLC + Outrider / Corran
• (1) Dash + HLC + Outrider / 3 A-wings
• (1) Chewbacca / 3 Z-95's

Scum

• (1) IG88 B&C

It looks like fat lists are winning untimed rounds (finals) as well as timed. Could be a lot of reasons, like there are more fat ships in the finals or they're facing off against each other so one has to win. I may have to look at opponents in the final round to see the matchups. It may be there's more to fat ships than just the time, but you're right that it would be tough to tell until they don't have such a big advantage in Swiss.

So if this doesn't cancel the Fat ships do you think the cloaking nerf will be reversed?

I would never have taken my regional list before the nerf. It was autolose against old whisper. I still got knocked out by whisper, but better decisions would have made a difference.

Unless you flew your old list in a block formation I wouldn't call it "autolose" - not based on the list anyway.

from what I've glanced over, it seems that very few Vipers are being played but I did check at least one Xizor placing very high amidst all the turreted dreck. 5 Zs and auto-thrusters will help with that mess

Rebel list building is in a really boring and bad place right now. That's exactly it: your choices are:

Falcon, YT2400

side: mass low Bs, filler Zs, Corran Horn.

That's about it folks.

No Xs, no Ys showing high results, no HWKs cuz their turrets are totally nerfed, no As unless you're a fanboy.

nah, we got B-wings just by themselves and a Z

BBBBZ is one of the few reliable counters to turrets because they emphasize literally the only way to beat them: chucking as many dice as possible

Attack wing just got a turret nerf I wonder if we need something similar because clearly they Arnt going away.

We've needed one regardless of their power just to improve the overall quality of the game, imo

Though I've really come around on the yt-2400 and would hate to see it suffer unduely, nerfing primary turrets would be for the greater good of the game

in contrast, imperial and scum building is nice and fine:

imp

decimator, interceptors (soontir, carnor, turr, RG), phantoms (all), lambdas, tie/f.

All with lots of different options. Unlike the Rebel fat turrets which basically have a go-to build.

Soon Tie/adv.

No Defs, no Bombers, no firesprays. But honestly, thats pretty good. Firesprays are honestly a scum feeling ship. That leaves really 2 ships with no meta role.

I think wave 7 can likely bring the rest of the imperial ships back into popularity as well. The tie only card seems slated to make the defender dial less terrified of stress, and the bomber will gain more flexibility. Dunno what can help the rebels since bwings and their fat turrets are just so effective that it's hard for other ships to shine.

in contrast, imperial and scum building is nice and fine:

imp

decimator, interceptors (soontir, carnor, turr, RG), phantoms (all), lambdas, tie/f.

All with lots of different options. Unlike the Rebel fat turrets which basically have a go-to build.

Soon Tie/adv.

No Defs, no Bombers, no firesprays. But honestly, thats pretty good. Firesprays are honestly a scum feeling ship. That leaves really 2 ships with no meta role.

I think wave 7 can likely bring the rest of the imperial ships back into popularity as well. The tie only card seems slated to make the defender dial less terrified of stress, and the bomber will gain more flexibility. Dunno what can help the rebels since bwings and their fat turrets are just so effective that it's hard for other ships to shine.

it's mostly just the turrets necessitating efficient ships like B-wings and Headhunters

A-wings in particular run circles around Bs and Z-95s and tie fighters, especially Predator Gemmer (4 agility versus the 2 dice ships...oh god) but not amount of skill can get around a turret and they're not strong enough to justify auto-thrusters on all of them.

I think one of the things about fat ships that makes them so good is that they're very point efficient. You slap an engine upgrade on a rookie pilot that helps 1/4th your list. You slap an EU on a turret and it helps ~half of your list, a single 3 point upgrade gives half of your list another action.

Autothrusters on an Interceptor is 1/5th of your list. In order to get the benefit of autothrusters on all of your ships you have to pay for it 4 more times.

So when you stack a bunch of these power upgrades together it makes a 60 point fat turret that can beat 60 points of tie fighters 9/10 times. That engine upgrade doesn't allow you to arc dodge your one ship, it allows you to arc dodge with over half of your list and it cost less points than if you kitted out a 4 ship build with them.

I think one of the things about fat ships that makes them so good is that they're very point efficient. You slap an engine upgrade on a rookie pilot that helps 1/4th your list. You slap an EU on a turret and it helps ~half of your list, a single 3 point upgrade gives half of your list another action.

Autothrusters on an Interceptor is 1/5th of your list. In order to get the benefit of autothrusters on all of your ships you have to pay for it 4 more times.

So when you stack a bunch of these power upgrades together it makes a 60 point fat turret that can beat 60 points of tie fighters 9/10 times. That engine upgrade doesn't allow you to arc dodge your one ship, it allows you to arc dodge with over half of your list and it cost less points than if you kitted out a 4 ship build with them.

I've heard this form of argument several times when referring to fat ships and it always seems like trying to use confusing word play to make a point... Yes, it's half your list, but it's still 1 ship, using half in that manner makes it seem like you're getting more value out of it then you are. I'm not certain 1 60 point fat turret CAN beat 5 tie fighters, since as far as I know the counter to turrets has always been swarm.

I think one of the things about fat ships that makes them so good is that they're very point efficient. You slap an engine upgrade on a rookie pilot that helps 1/4th your list. You slap an EU on a turret and it helps ~half of your list, a single 3 point upgrade gives half of your list another action.

Autothrusters on an Interceptor is 1/5th of your list. In order to get the benefit of autothrusters on all of your ships you have to pay for it 4 more times.

So when you stack a bunch of these power upgrades together it makes a 60 point fat turret that can beat 60 points of tie fighters 9/10 times. That engine upgrade doesn't allow you to arc dodge your one ship, it allows you to arc dodge with over half of your list and it cost less points than if you kitted out a 4 ship build with them.

I've heard this form of argument several times when referring to fat ships and it always seems like trying to use confusing word play to make a point... Yes, it's half your list, but it's still 1 ship, using half in that manner makes it seem like you're getting more value out of it then you are. I'm not certain 1 60 point fat turret CAN beat 5 tie fighters, since as far as I know the counter to turrets has always been swarm.

I've seen it happen and I've done it (might not have been TIE fighters each time but it is was swarm vs. a Fat Turret). A high PS arc dodging turret has a very good chance of taking out a similar number of points in cheap low PS ships. If the swarm doesn't get a good position to lay in some serious damage the first turns they'll find themselves getting picked off while never getting more than one or two return shots.

^ I've done it countless times as well in earlier waves with the Falcon, that dial + Engine is insane.

Easy solution to all this :

Don't play Turrets when casual

Play Turrets in tourneys

It's pretty trivial to pop any ship with a turret. Its even laughable because they can almost NEVER avoid retaliation.

With boost on a large base and a complete disregard for facing, it's easy to isolate and throw dice at specific targets.

All you need is a good throw to pop a tie and their chances of winning grow slim. Meanwhile, if they get bad red rolls and you live on 1-2 hull they're getting jack ****.

There's a reason they're stupidly competitive.

When flying a clump of generics here's my advice: DONT GIVE CHASE. you will NEVER catch a fattie, it's just a sad fact.

Instead take it slow. Regroup and try to train several arcs on it simultaneously. If you have an mov lead, just fart around in the corner and force him to engage on your turns.

The non-yt2400 turrets have the advantage in literally every single possible capacity save in their base size (gains in boost loses in being a large target) and the amount of dice they throw. Unless you grossly outnumber it regularly, you're going to lose. Simple as that.

No matter how good a player you are, that's the reality of fat turrets

Well, except sensor + ptl + r2d2 Ewings. It'll take most of your earthly lifespan, but they'll tango with turrets just fine because r2 ends up taking on an additional 20+ points in shield upgrades