The red dice is not so bad when it is the only dice shooting. It does however put the threat out there against starfighters who thought they could sit just out of range. That said, the Dreads generally also have better targets to shoot at with their broadsides so it is not something that happens often.

I am tempted to agree and push the DP20 away from the missiles, especially with the MC30 addition. Maybe focus more on the anti-fighter/turbolaser portion of the vessels capabilities. It would certainly fit that role for the Rebels. I would like to start investigating the fleet as a whole. Suggesting we look at what is available to each fleet, and then start to figure out what it is missing to round out a certain area or strategy. Then pick a ship to mod in and tackle that void. This may proove more productive then making ships and then trying to figure out how they are going to fit in.

I think we should avoid trying to clone each faction's ships though. While the Rebels may want a Gladiator equivalent, what they get should never be exactly the same. Think of it as filling the same role, but in slightly different way. I dont want each ship to loose that uniqueness.

I agree with both of you. My plan is to do a first pass at the ships purely from the wookieepedia angle, more or less independently of existing units, and then tweak and adjust as needed to make them fit with existing units. I think it's OK to have two ships that fill similar roles in a fleet, as long as the differences aren't only cosmetic (think AF Mk1 vs Mk2, or Liberty vs Home One type MC80). Significantly diverging from the flavour/lore, though, by artificially inflating or nerfing a ship, is bound to cause rejection.

I think we should avoid trying to clone each faction's ships though. While the Rebels may want a Gladiator equivalent, what they get should never be exactly the same. Think of it as filling the same role, but in slightly different way. I dont want each ship to loose that uniqueness.

I don't disagree at all. We should try to avoid making clones of opposite faction ships. Variety makes it likely at some point, but the sheer volume of craft in Star Wars will put us under without a directional focus.

I agree with both of you. My plan is to do a first pass at the ships purely from the wookieepedia angle, more or less independently of existing units, and then tweak and adjust as needed to make them fit with existing units. I think it's OK to have two ships that fill similar roles in a fleet, as long as the differences aren't only cosmetic (think AF Mk1 vs Mk2, or Liberty vs Home One type MC80). Significantly diverging from the flavour/lore, though, by artificially inflating or nerfing a ship, is bound to cause rejection.

My thought was generally pointed towards a ships obvious strengths or say top 2 attributes from a lore perspective should be more then enough to keep the purists happy. If it has the flavor then we are on the right track. Now that I am sitting on a pile of wave II stuff it has got the wheels turning.

Maybe you could build the DP20 as a dedicated anti-fighter ship? Perhaps 3 blue anti-squadron dice and the ability to fit both point defence reroute and ruthless strategists. Anti-ship would be average at best, perhaps 2/1 blue dice at most.

Providing a god home for the two worst cards in the game is like adopting an abandoned puppy.

You just described what the Lancer is supposed to be.

The DP20 has always been a tougher, shootier ship when compared to the CR90. I would hate to flip that around just to fill a role. This may be an excellent opportunity to do a ridiculously maneuverable speed 4 ship.

Speed 1: II

Speed 2: II I

Speed 3: II I I

Speed 4: - II I I

Th 2 clicks of yaw early in the movement would make them, by far the most maneuverable ship to date.

Maybe you could build the DP20 as a dedicated anti-fighter ship? Perhaps 3 blue anti-squadron dice and the ability to fit both point defence reroute and ruthless strategists. Anti-ship would be average at best, perhaps 2/1 blue dice at most.

Providing a god home for the two worst cards in the game is like adopting an abandoned puppy.

I fear the only problem with aiming for that, is you are giving a ship an Offensive Refit and a Gunnery Team slot in that attempt, and people will default to far more common anti-ship combinations with that... Unless you start changing the ways ships run... Of course, limiting dice as much as possible, might provide some impetus towards not spending anything on it, unless incentivised.

You just described what the Lancer is supposed to be.

The DP20 has always been a tougher, shootier ship when compared to the CR90. I would hate to flip that around just to fill a role. This may be an excellent opportunity to do a ridiculously maneuverable speed 4 ship.

Speed 1: II

Speed 2: II I

Speed 3: II I I

Speed 4: - II I I

Th 2 clicks of yaw early in the movement would make them, by far the most maneuverable ship to date.

I'd feel better if the CR-90 was the king of maneuverability, whereas players turn to the DP20 for a ship with more dice at close ranges, but probably not as flexible. If nothing else a DP20 could serve as a two-dice AA ship with better firing arcs. It just needs to be built so it doesn't make the Escort Nebulon obsolete, which is already on unsteady ground because of how weird it is to defend with.

I wouldn't dare go beyond two AA dice for any kind of ship. That said, I feel like the Lancer and the DP20 might be re-treads of existing ships, since the Lancer's space is already covered by the Raider and the DP20 bumps the Escort Nebulon and CR-90. If you create a ship that ends up being superior to both, nobody will want to take a CR-90 or escort frigate.

SQUIRREL!

Very nice. To much firepower for my taste.

Thats my concern as well. As it stands I would take this over the CR90 every time. 2 of these with Assault concussion missiles ate a Victory in short order.

Thats my concern as well. As it stands I would take this over the CR90 every time. 2 of these with Assault concussion missiles ate a Victory in short order.

At 98 points I should hope 2 of them can take on a Victory. That being said, how many turns did it take to swing around to the rear? In any other arc those things are toast. Though I always have a GSD or a bomber wing ready to hit those pesky rebel scum that like to lurk back there.

^2

True, but I still think it has one to many dice in the front. I would drop the black in the front arc only. I just dont like seeing it fling more dice than a CR90 on a double arc for the points.

After that, it has a home in any Mothma list to replace or augment, the never-quit-effective Neb B. (Salvation excepted).

Fleet Ambush. It did not take much time at all to get behind it. In the grand scheme one game means nothing. Plus the ship got a chance to be used in an ideal situation.

I'm coming into the thread here without reading much of the discussion on the DP20, please forgive me if I'm going over previous points, but I wanted to add my thoughts.

The DP20 seemed to me that it had the reputation of being overloaded with small guns, boosting the AA capabilities but the anti-ship capabilities were modest at best. So give it blue-black for AA defense on one, and Blue-blue on the second. Matches the Raider, which already works.

I imagined the DP20 to be the heavier ship, but it looks like wookiepedia claims this is actually a faster craft. Nevertheless there's no say on how nimble it is, so drop the yaw values at the higher speed to keep it from competing with the CR-90. Slower speeds can retain the two click to better fill the role as fleet escort instead of flanker.

At this point she's looking similar to the Raider, so we'll change a few things.

All firing arcs are at 3 dice, one red and two blue on each arc. CR-90 will still have slightly better armament out the front but depowered armament in the flanks by comparison. DP20 is supposed to be the better gunship all around after all.

Severely nerf the upgrade capacity since this ship was little more than engines and guns. I'd suggest officer, offensive structure, offensive structure. The CR-90 will still be superior to outfit for different roles, but the DP20 is good only for swatting fighters and maybe participating weakly in the capital ship fight. A version could have a turbolaser and the B version would have a missile slot, as well as switching all blues to blacks. Ver A is gunship, Ver B is missile boat. She doesn't compete with the Nebulon-B because that ship has better red dice out the front and better fighter/engineering. She can't compete with the CR-90 because there's no defense slot or support teams to make that ship better.

Protection could be one evade, two brace tokens like the Nebulon-B. Her weakness is getting in too close and having no power for redirects other than hitting the engineering button. Unlike the Nebulon-B she can take some flank hits because of better shielding and arc distribution.

On that note, I'd suggest hull four, 2/2/2 shield distribution.

command 1, fighter 1, engineering 2 as standard for ships of this size. Costs more than the CR-90 to discourage spamming this over the corvette.

The idea is to create a ship that can't survive a direct hit from overwhelming firepower but is valued for its AA capability. You send these things after Rhymerballs or keep them by your capital ships to provide AA firepower. Rather than the obvious, the titles won't pertain to shredding fighers generally. One title could be an exhaust to change a crit to an accuracy against squadrons, and another could be exhausting to take damage cards but recover shields perhaps?

That's how I'd try building it.

Funny, that really isn't very far off from the (now obsolete and due for an overhaul) original DP20 card .

For the Braha'tok, I'm going to side with elder posts and just recommend losing a red forward, or maybe a black if you feel it needs some kind of reach, but I'd lean red. I wouldn't lower the cost though. It's plenty as it is.

For the DP20, it would seem we've managed to circle all the way back to where we started. Since this is the case, I'm of the opinion we were on the right track to begin with, and the required update is less severe than we originally thought. I'm of the opinion we should keep in mind the CR90 is the most agile ship yet released by FFG and that without exceptional cause, we should consider that the ceiling of agility. The current speed chart doesn't seem patently ridiculous to me, although I'd lose the first click at full power. Norsehound's pair of versions seems sensible, although I might point out the missile version is well covered by the new Braha'tok, leaving the blue-armed version of the DP20. For the exact changes to the old armament, all black to blue, and additional blues on either beam. Lose the Ordnance upgrade obviously on this version, and replace it with an OR slot. If we just can't sleep without giving the DP20 missiles, a second version could be made, swapping these blacks for blues, and perhaps the Turbolasers for Ordnance. Either version can lose about five or six points, so still more expensive than a CR90, but punchy enough it might be worth it.

Does anyone have any ideas for the LAAT/i, the only big CW era craft I think we've missed? I'm working on some stats for it and the Eta and Nu class shuttles to post soon, but I'm curious if anyone has any cents to contribute to the community tab.

For the LAAT/i, aside from Board and Heavy, speed 2, hull 4, squadron 2 red, battery 1 blue. Other than the board, these should almost be a liability and not as advanced as the Imperial transports.

For the Ace squadron, I would go with one of the Clone Wars favorites, Echo. A friendly squadron at distance 1 may be given the Escort key word.

I will leave pointing it to others.

Now we encounter an issue, as the original boarding shuttles are not very powerful, at least not as statted. The LAAT/i, while no starfighter, was anything but a slouch in combat and packed a powerful punch. I'm fine with a depowered one for the Imperial era that doesn't render the others obsolete, but I have first approached this as a gunship, boarding craft second. As it stands, there's actually one version without Board even more combat effective. I don't want them swarming the play area though, so both are costed way beyond what a starfighter of equivalent punch might receive, to hobble both of them that way. It's something worthy of discussion.

For the DP20, I favour the two versions approach:

One where the missiles are set up for anti-squadron use -> Off+WT+TL slots, BK A/S, RBB front, RR broadside, B rear

One where the missiles are set up for anti-ship use -> Off+WT+Ord slot, B A/S, RBK front, BBK broadside, B rear

Or are they too different? Perhaps a BBB or RBB broadside for the first version?

For the LAAT, I was thinking something quite similar to the ATR-6. Perhaps hull 6, speed 2, RK A/S, B battery, Heavy, Board, and either Counter 1 or Bomber. Cost in the low tens.

My own thoughts on the LAAT should be along the lines of a Hind-D gunship, seeing as that is what it was based on for concept. Speed 3, Hull 5, A/S BK, K Battery, Heavy, Board, Counter 1

Those DP20s look solid. I would swap the initial broadside for your alternate suggestion, but leave fore alone. Both of those ships should round out somewhere in the low to mid-40s, more expensive than preceding Rebel corvettes, but tougher, punchier, or both than the cheaper ships.

Wes is right, the LAAT, especially the i version, is a Star Wars Mi-24 Hind gunship. (Fascinating history in Soviet doctrine, but I won't bore anyone here. Suffice it to say the LAAT/i lives up to its very, very Soviet origins.) I'm partial to the RK AS (it ain't meant to fight aces), Counter 1, if not Counter 2, K Battery, Heavy, Board, and if I can't have Speed 3 Hull 6, I'll take Speed 3 Hull 5. Would the thread be opposed to a heavy assault version without Board, with the obvious CIS counterpart of the HMP? My current theories:

LAAT/i / HMP

Hull: 6/5

Speed: 3/3 (I could be talked down to 2, but then they need a way to go faster in bursts. B-wings are only ok because of Independence.)

AS: RBK/BK

Battery; KK/KK

Heavy on Both

HMP gets Bomber, LAAT/i either Counter 1 or 2

Cost: 16ish

I would be in support of the two versions Assault/Board Mel makes all sorts of cool ones lol. I am also fine with RK, doesn't bother me. After all the gunboat managed to inherit a red.

As it is looking like we are going on the beefy side for the LATT/i, here is an adility, ace or new. Jammers, enemy. Squadrons at distance 1 may not be activated by a Squadron command. This could truly throw a wrench in the 20 vulture droid builds.