Sign me up for a couple of those vindicators.

I agree. I think I just found room for 2 myself.

...I think it's still too good...

Faster, more maneuverable, and better anti-squadron than a VSD-II, with only a moderate loss in firepower and hull/shields, at a 17-point discount. Sure, it also has 1 less Squadron and Engineering, but... dat Def Ret . Playtesting required as usual, but my 8-ball says that A/S is going down to 1 blue.

Look at it this way. Sure it compares to a Victory in terms of long range gun power, but it is nowhere near the same threat up close. It also moves faster but once again its main guns don't need to be that close, nor is a knife fight at its strength. You may find that speed coupled with long range guns makes it an excellent chase craft against the faster Rebel ships, but poorly under gunned against similar costed enemy mediums. People may be tempted to try and use it in numbers to play the long range war but the Rebels will always have the upper hand in that, especially with Ackbar. Lacking a turbolaser upgrade slot also hurts its offensive capability. My intuition leans on this ship excelling at nothing, but never being poor at any of it either.

You're probably right. Let's see how it performs on the table (and wait until I break it with a silly title ability)

Turns out the printers' Mini Cards differ slightly in size from FFG's "Mini American" format. To be more precise, they're about 3mm (1/8") wider:

The left image is an upgrade card* in FFG's original format. The middle image is what it would look like if printed as-is onto the wider cards. The last image is what it would look like if I stretched the background horizontally to fill the print format.

It's a tough choice:

A) As-is printing with black sidebars looks awful, but can be trimmed by the end-user into FFG format so it can look at home with official cards, and even be sleeved. This offers the best potential final result, but with a ton of work on your end.

B) Cards with an expanded background will look perfect right out of the box, but won't match up with FFG cards and won't fit in the same sleeves. In addition, this solution will require me to extensively edit every card made so far, so it's a ton of work on my end.

C) A third, compromise solution may be to extend, rather than expand, the background, or even to fully replace it with custom-made artwork. It will require a fair amount of set-up work, but once done it should take minimal effort to apply it to existing cards as part of the print preparation process. The cards should look good out of the box and still be trimmable into FFG format if you desire (though no guidelines will be visible, so unfortunately this won't be as straightforward as with option A).

What do you think?

*: Yes, I was experimenting with a Gravity Well Generator upgrade icon:

I vote trim-able, but then I have a guillotine paper cutter, so chopping is easy for me.

I vote trim-able as well. Mainly so it wil fit in the sleeve and be uniform.

I'm not too worried about the Vindicator being too good. It's not that much better armed than a Nebulon, marginally better tokens (I like diversity in my defensive options), but not that hot in direct forward fire. It's got Offensive Retrofit, meaning it could be a medium carrier, and Defensive Retrofit and Ion Cannons for survivability and harassment respectively, but with only Gunnery Team it's offensive power isn't absurd given the price point, especially without Turbolasers. Consider this, as built, it can't add any die to attacks without using CF command dials. That's a hell of a hobble. I expect most of its place in Imperial fleets to bulk up activations in already forward centric attack lines (Victory's and ISDs), not frontline (by which I mean only Vindicator fleets) combat.

I know we were going to try to avoid creating new rules, but for the same reason I never objected to the Cargo icon I'm ok with the Gravity Well icon: it future-proofs our work. It expands what we can do with relatively little change to rules as written, and most importantly in this case, frees up the Vindicator and possible future CC-Whatever-Number-Is-Here-Because-I-Don't-Know-This-Ship-Well ship title cards to do other, more interesting things. The icon also lets us tweak how the new powers work and balance it across factions instead of just mirroring capability under different names.

For cards, I'm fine with trimming. Let me know when the Cargo ones are updated so I can update my backup folder of cards. Have you checked for similar discrepancies across the rest of the lot?

I can't remember but was there a card done a while ago for the Carrack cruiser that didn't make it on the new Armada Shipyards page?

Trimmed is fine with me. Its not like there are hundreds of them.

I see you have come to the light with my old Gravity Well icon/upgrade idea. Fully support the idea of making it an actual upgrade card as it puts the ships that use it in a more favorable position to see table time. Is it time to start the old debate on how it should work?

I can't remember but was there a card done a while ago for the Carrack cruiser that didn't make it on the new Armada Shipyards page?

Regarding trimming, I'm thinking I'll go with option C... but leaving trim guidelines on the reverse of the cards, where they're just as functional yet nowhere near as obtrusive. The whole affair will require quite a bit of work, but that was never going to be avoidable once we decided to go for pro-quality printing.

I know we were going to try to avoid creating new rules, but for the same reason I never objected to the Cargo icon I'm ok with the Gravity Well icon: it future-proofs our work. It expands what we can do with relatively little change to rules as written, and most importantly in this case, frees up the Vindicator and possible future CC-Whatever-Number-Is-Here-Because-I-Don't-Know-This-Ship-Well ship title cards to do other, more interesting things. The icon also lets us tweak how the new powers work and balance it across factions instead of just mirroring capability under different names.

For cards, I'm fine with trimming. Let me know when the Cargo ones are updated so I can update my backup folder of cards. Have you checked for similar discrepancies across the rest of the lot?

I already did this with Ship and Squadron cards, by the way - it was when doing the same for the Upgrade cards that I noticed the size problem. Ship and Squadron/Objective cards have a 1:1 sized correspondence with Tarot and Poker standards, so no problem there. I was working under the assumption that FFG's Mini size was the same as everyone else's Mini, but you know what they say about assuming.

We already had long conversations about this fighters, perhaps you can agree on some points:

So abilities that we can use
Stealth
Grit
Swarm
Bomber
Heavy
Escort

A first run.....some fighters you can't really differentiate easily. It's a ship game after all.

Tie Avenger

Speed 4
Hull 4 (More than Ties or Tie Interceptors but same as A-Wing but less than X-Wing)
Squadron Dice = 4 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Black
Escort
Counter 2

Tie Defender
Speed 5 (Third Collector adds speed to the fighter) Speed 4 at most, it had a top speed of 144 MGLT compared to 150 of the Avenger
Hull 5 (Better shields boost the Hull by 1) It had 100 SBD shield and 14 Ru Hull (Avenger: 100/20) and was not more agile than an Avenger too: 110 DPF compared to 150 DPF)
Squadron Dice = 4 Blue I think 3 Blue and a black and a red would be fine. It had 4 Lasers (4 blue) and missles and 2 Ioncannons.
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Black
Escort
Counter 2 or 3 Beeing less agile than an Avenger Counter 1 seems enough to me.

Making the Defender Counter 3 would be a big boost too.

Tie Phantom

Speed 4
Hull 4 (More than Ties or Tie Interceptors but same as A-Wing but less than X-Wing)
Squadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Black (Not sure what these were armed with)
Grit
Counter 1
Stealth 1 (Causes attackers to re-roll one attack die, defenders choice)

E-wing
Speed 4
Hull 4
Squadron Dice = 4 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Red (Not sure what these were armed with)
Escort

Z-95 Headhunter
Speed 3
Hull 3 Perhaps even Hull 2? Most times it seems much more easy to take down a Z-95 than an TIE-Fighter which also is a newer design.
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Red
Small payload (after first use drops to 1 Black Die against Anti-Ship)

Cloakshape Fighter

Speed 3
Hull 5
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Black
Heavy

R-41 Starchaser
Speed 3
Hull 4 Perhaps even Hull 3? Most times it seems much more easy to take down a R-41 than an TIE-Fighter which also is a newer design.
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Red
?

Authority IRD
Speed 3
Hull 4
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Red
?

Preybird
Speed 3
Hull 5
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Red
?

A-9 Vigilance
Speed 3
Hull 4
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Red
?

Tie Droid
Speed 4
Hull 3
S quadron Dice = 2 Blue (for the lack of good pilot)
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Black
Droidship (may never be activated)

Scimitar Tie Bomber
Speed 4
Hull 4
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue, 1 Black
Anti-Ship Dice = 2 Black
Bomber

Star Viper
Speed 3
Hull 4
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Red
?

Long Probe Y-wing
Speed 3
Hull 6 better would be Hull 2 as it would be not a whole squadorn, the Supertransport on the other hand dont care for that either.
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Black
Probe (you may look at the latest command dieal of ship in range 1) or Intel?
Heavy

Skipray Blastboat

Speed 3
Hull 6
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Red
Heavy
Grit

T-wing
Speed 3
Hull 3
S quadron Dice = 3 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 1 Blue?
Swarm? Swarm would be bit much, perhaps just make him cheap?

Small payload (after first use drops to 1 Black Die against Anti-Ship)

TIE-Scout

Speed 3
Hull 2
S quadron Dice = 2 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = None
Probe or Intel
Heavy

Lambda shuttles

Speed 3
Hull 4
S quadron Dice = 1 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = None
Rescue (any lost fighters only count half for purpose of objectives)
Heavy

Limited Boarding (may engage Captial ships and perform a single 2 black die attack with the bomber rule, ship is captured if destroyed by the attack).

Delta-class JV-7 Escort shuttles

Speed 3
Hull 4
S quadron Dice = 4 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 2 Black
Rescue (any lost fighters only count half for purpose of objectives)
Counter 1

Heavy

Limited Boarding (may engage Captial ships and perform a single 2 black die attack with the bomber rule, ship is captured if destroyed by the attack).

Delta-class DX-9 Stromtrooper transport

Speed 2
Hull 5
S quadron Dice = None
Anti-Ship Dice = 2 Black
Heavy

Boarding (may engage Captial ships and perform a single 4 black die attack with the bomber rule, ship is captured if destroyed by the attack).

Gamma-class ATR-6 Assault transport

Speed 2
Hull 6
S quadron Dice = 4 Blue
Anti-Ship Dice = 2 Black
Heavy

Counter 1

Boarding (may engage Captial ships and perform a single 4 black die attack with the bomber rule, ship is captured if destroyed by the attack).

Beta-class ETR-3 Assault transport

Speed 2
Hull 7
S quadron Dice = 4 Blue, 1 Black
Anti-Ship Dice = 3 Black
Heavy

Boarding (may engage Captial ships and perform a single 4 black die attack with the bomber rule, ship is captured if destroyed by the attack).

Trimmed is fine with me. Its not like there are hundreds of them.

I see you have come to the light with my old Gravity Well icon/upgrade idea. Fully support the idea of making it an actual upgrade card as it puts the ships that use it in a more favorable position to see table time. Is it time to start the old debate on how it should work?

I am not worried about whos idea it was really. I was just thinking that the original plan was to keep things simple, but based on how large this whole thing has grown, simple isn't an option any longer Sheer variety in ships and squadrons available along with new Wave II rules have opened many new doors.

By the way, looks like Mel's custom ship thread was deleted again :/

You can still follow his new releases in his BGG thread .

They really don't like that thread eh?

Maybe they're having the Ton Falk in Wave 3 and don't want people getting ideas...

Ill still post around here but no more news. Ill send PM to DiabloAzul when I make a new ship so he can develop the cards.

Maybe they're having the Ton Falk in Wave 3 and don't want people getting ideas...

Their Ton Falk will suck compared to Mel's.

They know it too, which is why the thread got deleted.

I know it, which is why I bought one. It will be a carrier VSD until FFG make the base for it to sit on.

I don't remember a Carrack card, but I thought Wes did the Lancer. We still need both of those, and the Star Gallion.

Hopefully after the Clone Wars fleets are set time can be found.

On an unrelated note, I finally introduced my 19 year old son to Armada last night, so a new guinea pig has been added to my playtesting pool. Now I just need to get another friend of mine hooked, but I have a plan.

I just hope our card does Mel's model justice, but that's a tall order

Coming back to the Vindicator discussion, how about a Picket Ship variant card?

The Picket Ship would get the BK anti-squadron armament (Heavy Cruiser being reduced to just B as I mentioned before) and possibly the Def Ret slot, with the Heavy Cruiser getting a second Off Ret icon instead (Boosted Comms + Expanded Hangars? Tractor Beams + QLTs?) or perhaps a second Weapons Team.

I don't remember a Carrack card, but I thought Wes did the Lancer. We still need both of those, and the Star Gallion.

Hopefully after the Clone Wars fleets are set time can be found.

The Carrack, Lancer and some others were part of a set I did as a commission for someone. Meaning with their choice of stats (not mine - I just put together the image), so these were never part of my "official" collection. For what it's worth, they can all still be found here . Perhaps they can serve as the starting point for future work on them. In any case I won't be making cards for ships for which no quality artwork is available.

I see what you mean. The Lancer looks close to viable, but that Carrack seems seriously whacked.

I still have too many ships I do have models for yet to playtest. They will just have to wait for a bit.

I still need to work up my prototype Tiny/Support Ship base to test those.

I do need to add that in response to the proposed squadron stats on the previous page, that the Skipray was a long range Imperial/Sector Defense PT Boat. They were a very heavy-duty ship that was classified as a capital ship by some, due to it's high power output.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/GAT-12_Skipray_Blastboat

I have been thinking, that resized to a more (wave 2 fighter pack) size this would make an excellent Firespray alternative or even as a squadron on a small ship (or support ship) base, much like the Gozanti-class Cruiser detachment.

Mel, any chance of these being more freighter sized?

Thanks for the link to the old Carrack. If I see good artwork, Ill pass it along. The Carrack Support Cruiser looks good, but maybe a hull point and 5pts cheaper.

I've taken a quick look, but are there any ships with 4 hull or cost under 50pts? I think there need to be some cheap ships. It seems like most ships have 5 hull and cost 60pts. Carrack, Lancer, and a few others might be good options for that.

What are others thoughts on that?