Give it two brace tokens.

Well that is where my thinking was also. I ignored Ackbar when making this ship. Chances are if people want to use him this will not be a ship for them. However, there are 4 other Admirals to pick from. Ackbar will find his niche, none of the others are any less valid. That said, one of my locals already commented that the Liberty would be a great all rounder with Ackbar as it is above. 5 dice out any of its primary facings makes it a versatile yet less powerful ship for focus fire. Versatility may be its thing.

There is no hard rule about a ship being limited in it's upgrade slots based on its size. I would be alright with it having the second defence slot, but I would replace the support team with it. We could always investigate variants as well. Maybe one that loses the turbolaser slot, gains a second defence retrofit?

(I edited this into my earlier post then noticed you posted just after I edited it so I brought it down to a reply. Sorry about that)

It's defensive nature (which I agree with you on) This could be further expounded on by giving the Sides 4 shielding, but leaving the back at 2. That way we still have less of a correlation between the ISD. Depending on if you see it as a Medium or large ship, the point value might also need to rise to something like 90 and 97. Though most of that is me spitballing.

Trust me, I understand there are no hard fast rules for the Upgrade's. I was just thinking of additional ways to get it to deviate. We could probably even push out the amount of upgrades to give it a very diverse range of options. Though I dont necessarily think going overboard on that idea as wise. Again mostly just musings.

I was aiming for the medium catagory. It is about the same size as the Venator which we also put in that catagory, and I feel that fits the otherwise blank Mon-cal slot in the size chart.

Give it two brace tokens.

Two brace is a great way to instantly make a ship more durable. The trouble is, even with the smaller less shielded Dreadnaught the bloody thing took an average of 17 hits to kill in most of our playtesting. So this ship would have double the front shields with the ability to use Advanced projectors. I estimate that will put it at an average of 20+ damage to kill. However, in the wave II environment that is fairly easy to come accross. I lean towards trying the double defense slot first, and see how tanky it is. In that regard ECM could easily allow it to use brace much of the time anyway.

...or we could add a Contain token. It's not worth much, but it can save your bacon (squid bacon!) once in a while.

Generally speaking I think the stats and costing are spot on. My only concern is that it's a near-clone of the VSD-II: move one blue die from the front to the rear, trade a hull point for a front shield, and change a couple upgrade icons to the defensive equivalents (which is, by the way, exactly what I did with the Republic version of the VSD). Presumably the arcs will be VSD-like, too, which only exacerbates the issue.

It's not a deal breaker by any means, but I would like it a little more if we could somehow differentiate the two ships.

I am working on the concept of a little more individual now. In a different manner of speaking however. One sec.

Take your time

Ok so going off of an earlier suggestion and taking into account my own feelings here is the revision. I have repurposed it to an Ion Cannon centric design, along with a duel defense uprgrade slot (removed turbolaser upgrade), and added the contain. Although originally I thought contain was a little pointless, by the time I got hammered a few times with 8 dice at a time, the contain did indeed save my Imperial bacon from critical damage. Sorry for the sloppy arc template. I wanted it to have a smaller front arc then the Victory but still wide enough to be of use, but this is just a concept.

Yes, I think I like this better. It is (or can be) a tanky beast, as well as versatile. The lack of TL or OR upgrade icons does put a damper on its offensive capabilities, but it's still almost as scary as a naked VSD-II - and much more adaptable (Engine Techs can make all the difference, as can a Redundant Shields + Projection Experts combo).

EDIT: Which makes me think I need to give it shield-related title cards for synergies bordering on the obscene

Speaking for myself as an (primarily) Imperial player, while the Liberty looks quite durable, it isn't packing a particularly impressive punch. I'm fine with not letting it go damage to damage with an Imperial-class, but right now its armament is underwhelming, and not helped by the maneuver tree. I would up its maneuverability to match the MC80, then it's agile enough to make that front arc halfway worth it. And while I understand we're trying avoid letting Ackbar run away with this ship, I would up its side arc power, especially if it is a Large ship. Otherwise this is a weaker (HP) Rebel Victory with better shields and the option for defensive instead of offensive upgrades. While the Liberty shouldn't be as intimidating as an Imperial-class or Home One, right now it's less intimidating than a Victory, and to me the ship's role as a Rebel ship of the line means it had a fair bit of firepower backing up its impressive durability.

Speaking for myself as an (primarily) Imperial player, while the Liberty looks quite durable, it isn't packing a particularly impressive punch. I'm fine with not letting it go damage to damage with an Imperial-class, but right now its armament is underwhelming, and not helped by the maneuver tree. I would up its maneuverability to match the MC80, then it's agile enough to make that front arc halfway worth it. And while I understand we're trying avoid letting Ackbar run away with this ship, I would up its side arc power, especially if it is a Large ship. Otherwise this is a weaker (HP) Rebel Victory with better shields and the option for defensive instead of offensive upgrades. While the Liberty shouldn't be as intimidating as an Imperial-class or Home One, right now it's less intimidating than a Victory, and to me the ship's role as a Rebel ship of the line means it had a fair bit of firepower backing up its impressive durability.

I agree, we should be shooting for something with a little better firepower than a VSD, but not quite a match for an ISD. When stating it out, instead of comparing one to one, make 2 winged Liberties = 1 VSD + 1 ISD. I think that is a better target than a Rebel counterpart to the VSD. Just my 2 credits.

I never did update it's speed chart from the template I had. I agree it should match the MC80, Didn't notice that it was not the same. I really did intend for this to be a medium ship though, not a large base. More in-line with the Victory in purpose and capability. Let Home One be the stand up for the ISD like it is.

I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to adding another -blue?- die to the side arcs, or even across the board. And on second thought it could probably use the TL and OR slots (it was equipped with tractor beams after all), which would reflect the huge variation between Mon Cal cruisers. But aside from that I'm with Wes, it fits better at the upper end of the medium ship scale.

I do think the firepower is a little anemic... how about a single black die across the board?

Wes,

I like your second stats for the Liberty, but may I make a suggestion. I would make it a large ship since is it a variant of he base MC80, even if it is a little smaller. The size categories are a sliding scale after all. Next for your upgrade slots, I would have this ship be more customizable than the MC80. Right now the Rebels tend to focus on the defensive game. I would recommend this ship be halfway between the Assault Frigate and the MC80. I think your original upgrade line was good with one change. Instead of the turbo laser upgrade either to an offensive retrofit or a weapons team. With a balance between defense and offense it allows the players to vary up their game.

Salcor

I do think the firepower is a little anemic... how about a single black die across the board?

Contingent on playtesting, I would at least add a black everywhere, and potentially another die, color of choice, to both side arcs. The way I've been approaching this ship is that its entire forward sector, not just its forward arc as dangerous. While that is a lot of upgrade slots, I'm fine with it since no commander is ever going to fully use the entire set, and can pick and choose which ones he wants.

As alternatives for pairs of cards, I would consider adjusting the exact color ratios of the side arcs, and vary the collection of upgrades. Between the two they can sum to the upgrade list here, perhaps with a couple overlaps like officer slots. That seems the best way forward from my perspective.

Figured if we put some cards together the constructive thought would be more productive. Always better to see it in front of you. I see you work quick Diablo.

I agree with the offensive slot in place of one of the defensive ones. I also agree we could add an extra blue dice/side but I would leave the front at 5 dice max. Also, currently my build and Diablo's by the looks of it assumes medium. Playtest some of the concepts if you can to get a good idea of durability. I will mock up some bases and have an ISD pound on the medium variant and see how well it stands up.

Ok, so I've been working on some mockups. These are my own version of the Liberty class cruisers, hopefully you guys find them at-least interesting. I did a few things that might be against the grain of some of the things talked about, but I hope to provide an interesting dynamic with them. Let me know what you guys think.

The two are similar, though in my mind they serve slightly different facets. Like their slightly more durable cousins, they are Large ships (I modified the Base template to use the measurements provided in the RR Booklet) so they should fit properly.

The idea behind each variant is slightly different.

The MC80 Combat Cruiser is meant toward durability and staying power. It wants to be in the fight for as long as possible and has the defense systems to make that possible.

The MC80 Defense Cruiser is meant to protect and escort your important assets. Unlike the Combat Cruiser, it wants to engage your targets medium proximity to bring its Ion Cannon's to bare so it can disable its targets while still posing a noticeable threat.

This is closer to what I think the MC80 Liberty should be. While it may not pack the punch of an ISD, it tops a VSD.

DATKFORTUNEX,

I like your stats for those, the only thing I would change is the upgrades. The ISD and Homeowners both only have 6 upgrade slots, so if they liberty is a large shop I would loose one.

Salcor

Yeah, I was thinking that same that the Upgrades might be to much.

Something I was looking at however is that I just dont think the Fire power is impressive enough on its own. Im thinking about adding a Dice to Side arcs and maybe bring up the For Sheild to 5.

Before too much analitical critique, put it on the table in a game as is and adjust from there. Without actually using it, you will never know how much of a boon its seemingly poor firepower is.

Indeed.

Anyway, the whole point of creating a Liberty-type MC80 was to make it distinct from its slightly bigger cousin, the Home One-type. If we end up with an almost identical ship (by inflating the side arcs and giving it a similar choice of upgrade slots), it'd be a bit of a shame. Just like if we end up with a VSD or ISD clone.

I think DFX's latest mockups are pretty decent, and would certainly not increase the stats any more than that. As for upgrades? I have no problem with giving it 7 slots. These are supposed to be unique ships, each converted in a different way. Having two versions with different red/blue splits and slightly different upgrade lines is also an option. I'll put together something later this evening but, like Wes says, there's not much to be gained by arguing back and forth about the exact number of dice or slots without doing some actual playtesting.

Yeah, I was thinking that same that the Upgrades might be to much.

Something I was looking at however is that I just dont think the Fire power is impressive enough on its own. Im thinking about adding a Dice to Side arcs and maybe bring up the For Sheild to 5.

I don't see the point in a second ion cannon slot either.

I think 5 at the front and 4 at the sides is good though if we can make the double arcing reliable.

As much as I want it to be different from Home One, I just can't find a basis for it. It's almost the same size, and has similar if not the same armament. So how about this:

As for the arc layout, I haven't put anything together yet, but I'd lean towards an arrangement similar to that of the Nebulon-B2:

The second ion cannon slot is to emphasize that this ship looks more to disable then eliminate there are a number of ion cards that could have interesting combo when matched.