I was thinking Liberator Cruiser may match that arc profile.

Ok, I ran a Venator, the Tranquility, commanded by Obi-Wan Kenobi. An Acclamator II, Aken with Intel Officer. Also allong for the ride, Anakin's Atikus squadron, along with one of each ot the basic Republic fighters.

Vs the Empire's finest, the Republic pulled out a win going first in Opening Salvos.

More later. Sleep now.

I want to get in on the Clone Wars action soon. Sleep?! Just make a report.

Anyway... squirrel! I would like to bring up a past design now that I am looking at it on table for games. Do we see the Assault frigate MkI with the additional dice on either side making it a little overkill once Ackbar is on the table? And I also finally got background to my argument that black dice are not just for missiles now that the ISD-I has them. Ships that have heavy turbolasers may deserve a second look for black dice armament. This little addition to the game finally puts to rest that annoying problem of why can't black dice be guns?

I don't know... I think the Scout Frigate puts them in perspective:

The MC30c costs 10 fewer point and has 1 more shield, 1 more defense token, better speed, better upgrades (dat defensive retrofit), better command and a better arc layout . It trades 2 hull and, of course, has black dice instead of blues - but the same number of reds throughout, so both ships are throwing the same number of dice at long and short range, with or without Ackbar.

Anakin- neutered both Fel and his TIE Advanced buddy taking out the Advanced with only counter attacks. The 2 scatter tokens require your opponent to be very dedicated, or very lucky to kill a Jedi.

Y-wings- dog turd slow, cheap bomber. The 1 counter is a cute little effect that fits the CW era.

V19s- Good solid escort.

Z95- Good cheap escort.

ARC170- Great bomber, if only I had picked up more of them.

V-wing- The TIE interceptors tougher little brother.

And on to the big boys. The Venator class SD Tranquility was a beast, even with the Opening Salvo extra dice, my opponent's VSD & GSD Demolisher couldn't kill it. General Kenobi kept my defense tokens on the table the entire game. Even when down to half damag I felt confident it could take several more good salvos from my opponent. Double Brace is **** nice to have. The broadsides make me want one of these behind Ackbar in the Rebel line of battle.

Acclamator II class, Aken- this ship can match a VSD at long range, & can out-Demolisher the Demolisher when it comes to chasing down bigger opponents. She got the kill on the VSD in turn 6. Victory or defeat hung on an obstructed front arc shot at the VSD's rear. My intel office did his job early, at the end, all he had left was Brace, & I only needed to hit him once.

It played very much like an Imperial mirror match. With both sides pummeling each other. While the Republic came out on top, if those two red dice at the end came up blank, this would have been an Imperial victory.

In retrospect, the Acclamator may be a bit cheap, or my opponent may have been distracted by the Venator. It is a bit disconcerting to see something bigger than the VSD coming at you. We will see, I promised my son we could play Republic vs Empire after my wave 2 ships show up.

I think the lack of upgrade slots will spell the Venator's doom vs an ISD...

Great fun, and the outcome was close enough I call this an all around success.

Oh, we also ran a few Anakin squadron vs (close to the same points)

Anakin vs 3 TIEs= 3 dead ties, but Anakin has one damage, and all his defensive tokens are spent.

Anakin vs 2 x-wings= 2 dead x-wings, Anakin has no damage, and still has one of his scatter tokens.

Ouch. Yeah, Counter 3 and two Scatters is a bit bonkers. Perhaps the Actis are all undercosted. On the other hand I'm fairly sure the X-Wings died because they tried to kill Anakin. You only need one to tie him down a couple of turns - his damage output is awful if you just ignore him. And if he jumps in the middle of a Rhymer ball... that's 4 or 5 attacks, even at 1 die each they're going to burn right through his Scatters.

Let's wait before changing anything; the cheap CIS droid fighters should have an easier time getting around those defense tokens with sheer numbers.

Crap, forgot Anakin vs 2 tie interceptors= Anakin dead on turn 2, one interceptor wounded. Crappy counter rolls from Anakin, coupled with 2 hit,hit,accuracy,accuracy results. That would be that good luck I was talking about. I thik he is pointed fine. While useful, mass fighters will eat him. He is best vs 2 other squadron, and your opponent will pay for piling on after that.

Yeah, I was going to suggest pitting him against a pair of Interceptors or A-Wings next. Or a 1-on-1 vs Soontir Fel. Or Howlrunner + a regular TIE. Those are all better matches than X-Wings I think.

There's also the fact that friendly Escorts (Z-95s and V-19s) neuter rather than help Actis squadrons, that makes a Jedi's life slightly harder

I used him as an Anti-squadron, Anti-squadron, to tie up Fel & the TIE Advanced he always flies with. I let the Escorts run interference for the bombers, and just let the V-wings tie up enemy bombers. The Clone Wars Y-wings are just too slow to be effective for anything but minefields. The Arc170 misses alot, but when it hits, lookout! At one point I did 5 damage to a single enemy squadron... By then though I only needed 2 to kill it, but it was still fun.

I think the wings on the liberty may make it's front arc better than 3. Maybe 4 or 5.

5 dice to all arcs but the back, just split up the dice.

Front:1 red, 2 blue, 2 black

Side: 3 red, 2 blue

Rear: 1 red, 1 black

Unfortunately cannon does not always translate into Armada well. The Liberty cruiser to me should look more like a Victory class in the way its weapons are laid out. I would agree 5 dice out front, say 3 red 2 blue.

I actually was thinking on something Dia mentioned. Using the same Arc range I was thinking of it have a powerful front, say 5 with its side arc's being 3.

5 dice to all arcs but the back, just split up the dice.

Front:1 red, 2 blue, 2 black

Side: 3 red, 2 blue

Rear: 1 red, 1 black

Why black dice? Libertys don't have missiles or torpedoes. Just give 3 reds 2 blues for sides and front. One red and one blue for fear. Maybe a variant with more blue dice too.

Can we please put to rest the idea that dice are a reflection of a starship's type of armament? Dice reflect combat capability in damage output and ability to hamper an enemy ship at various ranges. It's got diddly squat to do with a particular outfit of turbolasers and missile launchers that may or may not be canon. If thinking of them that way in game helps the flavor of a match for you, by all means go ahead. But please when discussing potential starship cards remember that we are here to create playable, effective ships, not exact reflections of things that may or may not be canon. I would also like to point out this theory that black dice are missiles is entirely a community idea. The crit cards released by FFG are just that, cards meant to create mechanics for various games.

I happen to agree with you, the Liberty probably won't carry black dice, but that is because I believe the Liberty should follow Mon Calamari large ship precendent and present the greatest threat at long range, where red dice can be used to put down pesky Gladiators before their primary attack is available. For a 5/3/X arrangement, I would like to point out that is a weaker Victory, that serves little purpose in a Rebel fleet. 5/4/x or 6/4/x (or at least those ratios) seem much more reasonable if we are trying to create a front arc-focused large ship for the Rebellion. That way the ship can differentiate itself from its Imperial counterparts as a ship, while not necessarily trading dice for dice in a direct closing match, by providing a far wider arc of danger in front of the ship.

Can we please put to rest the idea that dice are a reflection of a starship's type of armament? Dice reflect combat capability in damage output and ability to hamper an enemy ship at various ranges. It's got diddly squat to do with a particular outfit of turbolasers and missile launchers that may or may not be canon. If thinking of them that way in game helps the flavor of a match for you, by all means go ahead. But please when discussing potential starship cards remember that we are here to create playable, effective ships, not exact reflections of things that may or may not be canon. I would also like to point out this theory that black dice are missiles is entirely a community idea. The crit cards released by FFG are just that, cards meant to create mechanics for various games.

I happen to agree with you, the Liberty probably won't carry black dice, but that is because I believe the Liberty should follow Mon Calamari large ship precendent and present the greatest threat at long range, where red dice can be used to put down pesky Gladiators before their primary attack is available. For a 5/3/X arrangement, I would like to point out that is a weaker Victory, that serves little purpose in a Rebel fleet. 5/4/x or 6/4/x (or at least those ratios) seem much more reasonable if we are trying to create a front arc-focused large ship for the Rebellion. That way the ship can differentiate itself from its Imperial counterparts as a ship, while not necessarily trading dice for dice in a direct closing match, by providing a far wider arc of danger in front of the ship.

But most people dont just want a space combat game. There are plenty of well belanced of that out there. Its just that their factions and setting is not very appealing (besinde Battleflett Gothic). So part of the charm and success of Armada is that is based on Star Wars and on a already existing lore. Many people dont want game play and balance to be the most important facotor, but that the ships match the lore and thats why people want them to match certain weapons. And until now the dice fit very to the community ideas what they represent.

If imagining that black dice are concussion missiles zipping out of torpedo tubes on the prow of a Victory-class Star Destroyer is what gets you to play Star Wars: Armada, by all means more power to you. Contrails never go out of style. However, one of Diablo's stated objectives for cards created by this thread is to create playable starships, beyond just what the canon might or might not say. I might add, having not canvassed the new material with any real thoroughness yet, that we don't have a canon armament for a Liberty anymore, although I'm more than happy to keep the one from the EU. If the flavor is why you play, please help us keep it alive. Lord knows we won't turn down the help. I am, however, not particularly impressed when requests are made without concern for playability and entirely based on an arbitrary understanding of the starship being developed from its source material. I am asking for everyone to try to keep both sides of this coin in mind as we work together going forward, although I will concede my original statement was a bit aggressive. It's been a long week for me, non-excuse that that is. Does that make more sense?

Correlation does not imply identity. Missiles are generally represented with black dice, yes. But that does not mean black dice are only for missiles. For a great example, check out the Imperial-class Star Destroyer .

Black dice represent short-range firepower, such as that provided by missiles.

Blue dice represent medium-range firepower, such as that provided by ion cannons.

Red dice represent long-range firewpoer, such as that provided by turbolasers.

But that's pretty much it. There's no need to establish hard rules like "6 turbolaser cannons = 3 red dice", because that will only end in unplayable ships (not least because the lore is horribly inconsistent).

Anyway, this topic has been discussed to death so I will not engage in it any further. As Giled said, my priority is balanced gameplay that's supported by the lore. If you think putting black dice on a ship without missiles is not supported by the lore... then my cards are not for you.

Thats what I meant. I would also put it like:

Black dice represent short-range firepower, such as that provided by missiles and other ordnance.

Blue dice represent medium-range firepower, such as that provided by ion and laser (not Turbo) cannons.

Red dice represent long-range firewpoer, such as that provided by turbolasers.

Thats what I meant. I would also put it like:

Black dice represent short-range firepower, such as that provided by missiles and other ordnance.

Blue dice represent medium-range firepower, such as that provided by ion and laser (not Turbo) cannons.

Red dice represent long-range firewpoer, such as that provided by turbolasers.

That's pretty much how I have always seen it. For me its: Black = missiles, torpedoes and other short range weapons. Blue = ion cannons and turbolasers. Red = heavy turbolasers

I still think you guys are being far too specific - there's no reason you can't have short(ish)-ranged turbolasers, even heavy ones. The lore is full of notes such as "though the ship was armed with 16 turbolaser cannons, these were outdated models and outranged by its contemporaries".

It's also quite reasonable for a set of heavy turbolaser batteries to be given a mix of red and black dice: they can reach out to far range, but they're especially devastating at point blank. That's the ISD-I in a nutshell.

My design philosophy (and I believe FFG's) is that the correspondence between colours and weapon types is a general guideline , not a hard and fast rule. This philosophy isn't going to change anytime soon, so I'd rather spend my time discussing more interesting subjects

Either case I have been having this black dice arn't just missiles argument outside of this thread since March. The ISD-I card put it firmly in my camp but the forums continue to argue lol. On a side note though, we have gained new members since this all started so not everyone will be up on the general design conclusions while coming up with these cards. Older points may have to be discussed now and again to keep everyone on the same page. Dead horses aside.

Correlation does not imply identity. Missiles are generally represented with black dice, yes. But that does not mean black dice are only for missiles. For a great example, check out the Imperial-class Star Destroyer .

Black dice represent short-range firepower, such as that provided by missiles.

Blue dice represent medium-range firepower, such as that provided by ion cannons.

Red dice represent long-range firewpoer, such as that provided by turbolasers.

But that's pretty much it. There's no need to establish hard rules like "6 turbolaser cannons = 3 red dice", because that will only end in unplayable ships (not least because the lore is horribly inconsistent).

Anyway, this topic has been discussed to death so I will not engage in it any further. As Giled said, my priority is balanced gameplay that's supported by the lore. If you think putting black dice on a ship without missiles is not supported by the lore... then my cards are not for you.

Like was said above the listed cannon armaments of ships do not translate into making this a playable game. Things need to flex. In order to establish why I think this ship should follow a certain way of design I'm going to attempt to justify my view. I failed to establish a justification before I blurted out what I thought, here goes.

First of all I think the Liberty can fill a valued role as an alternative in the medium ship catagory. I feel that way because the MC80 expansion about to be released is already filling that Battleship/heavy cruiser role. Plus it emphasises the broadside again. The Rebels current medium ship is a medium to long broadside arc dodger relying on navigate tactics to keep itself alive. Being a line cruiser the Liberty could fill a role at the other end of the spectrum, slow, but harder to bring down much like its Home One cousin. I also wanted to illustrate its focus on forward firepower based not only on its shape, but out of desire to add a new ship to the Rebel fleet that can add to their diversity in play style.

Keeping in mind that the Liberty is not a high firepower ship when compared to similar sized vessels in terms of number of guns, the idea is not to replicate a Star Destroyer, but find a similar path. That does not mean it has no heavy firepower however. I think it can follow a very similar arc profile to a Victory class to help illustrate the role I feel it fits. The Nebulon-B would no longer be alone in the forward facing firepower market. Seeing as I feel it would still be a speed 2 ship, like its Home One counterpart, I want to focus on the vessels survivability over its devastating firepower. Where the Victory especially after Wave II, trust me is a firepower monster, its survivability is not impressive. I would like the Liberty to sacrafice some offensive capability for the ability to take a beating. Having a diverse upgrade tree that includes a defensive retrofit and a support team slot would be great.

Anyway I am going to work up a card concept and we can tear at it from there.

Anyway, just mocked it up for now but something like this.

Anyway, just mocked it up for now but something like this.

Yeah that was basically what I was thinking.

Another thing I was contemplating was not giving it a Turbo Laser slot. Rather giving it either an additional Defense system, or perhaps two Ion Cannon systems. This could be further expounded on by giving the Sides 4 shielding, but leaving the back at 2. That way we still have less of a correlation between the ISD. Depending on if you see it as a Medium or large ship, the point value might also need to rise to something like 90 and 97. Though most of that is me spitballing.

Though as a whole, I'm concerned about balancing to much around Ackbar. Yes I realize he is a factor, but he also isn't a constant. Not everyone might want to use him (Though I admit that he seems like an auto include right now). It feels like counterproductive to balance a design solely around the use of a single card, because then that card becomes even more important, and the Ship suffers if the card is not present. Admittedly I dont have a good answer to the 'Ackbar Conundrum'. But I definitely dont want to dismiss a cool idea because of one silly card (despite how uber it is). Plus the Liberty is one of my favorite ship designs.

Well that is where my thinking was also. I ignored Ackbar when making this ship. Chances are if people want to use him this will not be a ship for them. However, there are 4 other Admirals to pick from. Ackbar will find his niche, none of the others are any less valid. That said, one of my locals already commented that the Liberty would be a great all rounder with Ackbar as it is above. 5 dice out any of its primary facings makes it a versatile yet less powerful ship for focus fire. Versatility may be its thing.

There is no hard rule about a ship being limited in it's upgrade slots based on its size. I would be alright with it having the second defence slot, but I would replace the support team with it. We could always investigate variants as well. Maybe one that loses the turbolaser slot, gains a second defence retrofit?