Mostly to differentiate these a little from the CR90, and to compensate for the marked loss of maneuverability. Plus the fact it's a very modular ship with a lot of cargo areas.

Evade/Evade/Brace would've been too good I think (as well as identical to the Arquitens).

My understanding is that the weakness of the droid fighters was their absurdly low durability. You literally hit them once and they're dead. Reducing them to only moving under squadron command would make the fighters pointless, ESPECIALLY with how weak they are. They are extremely cheap craft and thus likely to be present in quantity. It would be extremely difficult to field enough squadron commands to actually move them all at once, ever. Further, that permanently binds all present CIS command dials to squadron. It just seems generally unfair and unbalanced. Frankly, I'm fine with the CIS fighters as they are, I was more interested in the droid crews of the starships. If people are incredibly worried about the fighters becoming overpowered, a keyword could be written in to prevent the Vulture droids (the Hyena is a bomber and the trifighter is pretty normally priced, so this seems pointless) from attacking starships without squadron commands, relegating them to anti-fighter duty only.

For Republic titles, I have a couple ideas.

Acclamator-class

Leveller - When an enemy ship ends its movement within close range of you, you may roll one black die for attack. (During one rescue of Delta Squad, a Separatist frigate dropped out of hyperspace at point-blank range, only to be shot apart by a snap missile salvo).

Aken - Attacks through asteroid fields are not obstructed (This ship led the GAR reinforcements through the Geonosian asteroid field during the First Battle of Geonosis).

There are numerous named Venator-class ships but I'm having less luck running down Charger C70s.

Mostly to differentiate these a little from the CR90, and to compensate for the marked loss of maneuverability. Plus the fact it's a very modular ship with a lot of cargo areas.

Evade/Evade/Brace would've been too good I think (as well as identical to the Arquitens).

I also think that Contain defense token only fit to the sturidiest ships and not really to this.

I don't agree - Contain only means the ship doesn't suffer negative effects up until the moment it blows up, but it doesn't really increase its lifespan (at least nowhere near as much as a Brace token does). It's appropriate for ships that can keep fighting effectively to the bitter end, which is the case for the modular, highly compartmentalized Consular-class*. It's also pretty much the sole advantage, and main distinguishing feature, of these ships over a CR90.

Let's say for a moment that I remove the Contain token. What would you then change to avoid having a near-clone of the CR90?

EDIT:

*: Not to mention that, while very useful to save a Hull 11 ship like the ISD from being crippled for a long time by a lucky early crit, it has limited value on a Hull 4 unit (which is likely to die the minute it starts getting damage cards).

My understanding is that the weakness of the droid fighters was their absurdly low durability. You literally hit them once and they're dead. Reducing them to only moving under squadron command would make the fighters pointless, ESPECIALLY with how weak they are. They are extremely cheap craft and thus likely to be present in quantity. It would be extremely difficult to field enough squadron commands to actually move them all at once, ever. Further, that permanently binds all present CIS command dials to squadron. It just seems generally unfair and unbalanced. Frankly, I'm fine with the CIS fighters as they are, I was more interested in the droid crews of the starships. If people are incredibly worried about the fighters becoming overpowered, a keyword could be written in to prevent the Vulture droids (the Hyena is a bomber and the trifighter is pretty normally priced, so this seems pointless) from attacking starships without squadron commands, relegating them to anti-fighter duty only.

Where do you get this impression. TIEs are also only able to take one hit, the only thing that makes TIEs better than Droid fighters is their living pilot and the larger fuel capacity (vultures can only fight for 35 min). And I dont find it unfair, that for example the Droid control ship will mostly .... control droids and not battle around like a battleship / battlecarrier that it wasnt.

Droids are far worse pilots and that should be represented, even more to make them special and not just fighters which stats we have seen before.

I don't agree - Contain only means the ship doesn't suffer negative effects up until the moment it blows up, but it doesn't really increase its lifespan (at least nowhere near as much as a Brace token does). It's appropriate for ships that can keep fighting effectively to the bitter end, which is the case for the modular, highly compartmentalized Consular-class*. It's also pretty much the sole advantage, and main distinguishing feature, of these ships over a CR90.

Let's say for a moment that I remove the Contain token. What would you then change to avoid having a near-clone of the CR90?

EDIT:

*: Not to mention that, while very useful to save a Hull 11 ship like the ISD from being crippled for a long time by a lucky early crit, it has limited value on a Hull 4 unit (which is likely to die the minute it starts getting damage cards).

What meant was, that only the sturdiest ships justify a contain token. It has to represent something. You dont give a slow hulk an evade token and therefor no contain to a fragile ship.

And modular ships often tend to be more prone to critical damage (see: Strike Cruiser). Its even smaller than the Cr90, so why not give it only 3 hull. It seems wrong to make ot sturdier than the Cr90. I thinkt its different enough with the black dice. Why not make it a bit cheaper but worse Cr90 for the refits? The more I read about them the more inferior they seem.

Why not give it Evade/Evade/Redirect or Evade/Brace/Redirect?

And doesnt the Light Assualt Cruiser dont look like this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Republic_light_assault_cruiser?file=Invincible_SHW.jpg

I also found:

The bow-mounted turbolaser was replaced by a turreted twin heavy ion cannon by the time of the Galactic Civil War . ^[5]

^{So perhaps the Repulic refit could have just a 2Blue attack on its front?}

What meant was, that only the sturdiest ships justify a contain token. It has to represent something.

It's an abstract mechanism - it doesn't have to represent anything specific . If you want, it can simply represent it's sturdy for its size .

You dont give a slow hulk an evade token and therefor no contain to a fragile ship.

Doesn't the upcoming ISD have an evade token?

And modular ships often tend to be more prone to critical damage (see: Strike Cruiser).

That's certainly one ship that won't be getting a Contain, but I'm not sure I can conclude from it that all modular ships suffer from the same problem.

Its even smaller than the Cr90, so why not give it only 3 hull. It seems wrong to make ot sturdier than the Cr90. I thinkt its different enough with the black dice. Why not make it a bit cheaper but worse Cr90 for the refits? The more I read about them the more inferior they seem.

Here I do agree with you - I didn't notice they were that much smaller than a corvette. So perhaps a hull reduction is in order. And I'll probably drop the Redirect (which, let's face it, is a lot better than a Contain for a ship like this one).

Why not give it Evade/Evade/Redirect or Evade/Brace/Redirect?

Like I said, I wanted to avoid the clone effect. And Brace is too good for this ship.

And doesnt the Light Assualt Cruiser dont look like this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Republic_light_assault_cruiser?file=Invincible_SHW.jpg

Yeah, that's the same ship. Some variants had the middle engine raised, some did not. There's no clear distinction between them though. I would have liked to use artwork showing the different configurations, but I simply could not find high-quality images for that specific sub-model.

I also found:

The bow-mounted turbolaser was replaced by a turreted twin heavy ion cannon by the time of the Galactic Civil War . %5B5%5D

So perhaps the Repulic refit could have just a 2Blue attack on its front?

That passage is why I gave the Alliance refit a blue die and an Ion upgrade icon. I left the two red dice because all four turbolaser turrets can face forward. Do you think it would be better to change it to one red two blue?

EDIT: quote-jungle fixed

You are right, Contain could mean that its sturdy for its size. But it always should represent something. A very compact small ship could have a contain token. So I now agree with you on that. Although I see nothing in the consular that makes her look sturdy, but also nothing to make it feel fragile or not sturdy.

I think there just is no good artwork for a Light Assualt Cruiser.

And perhaps two blue one red. Or Blue/Red would be nice and make it even more different.

My understanding is that the weakness of the droid fighters was their absurdly low durability. You literally hit them once and they're dead. Reducing them to only moving under squadron command would make the fighters pointless, ESPECIALLY with how weak they are. They are extremely cheap craft and thus likely to be present in quantity. It would be extremely difficult to field enough squadron commands to actually move them all at once, ever. Further, that permanently binds all present CIS command dials to squadron. It just seems generally unfair and unbalanced. Frankly, I'm fine with the CIS fighters as they are, I was more interested in the droid crews of the starships. If people are incredibly worried about the fighters becoming overpowered, a keyword could be written in to prevent the Vulture droids (the Hyena is a bomber and the trifighter is pretty normally priced, so this seems pointless) from attacking starships without squadron commands, relegating them to anti-fighter duty only.

Where do you get this impression. TIEs are also only able to take one hit, the only thing that makes TIEs better than Droid fighters is their living pilot and the larger fuel capacity (vultures can only fight for 35 min). And I dont find it unfair, that for example the Droid control ship will mostly .... control droids and not battle around like a battleship / battlecarrier that it wasnt.

Droids are far worse pilots and that should be represented, even more to make them special and not just fighters which stats we have seen before.

The Droids already have less battery/hull and to give them a special keyword would break DA's established rule about not making up anything new. However, if we were going to do that, I think Giled's primary concern is the knock-on effect on the Separatist ships. You would have to have one ship "controlling droids" the entire game (70-80 points sunk solely into the ability to use fighters), and that ship would have to have an absurdly large squadron command, in the double digits. These *are* stats I could see for the Lucrehulk, but there are numerous occasions in the EU where droids fought alongside proper battleships without DCS, and in this case you would have to either essentially mandate a carrier in every Sep list or make fighters useless.

My understanding is that the weakness of the droid fighters was their absurdly low durability. You literally hit them once and they're dead. Reducing them to only moving under squadron command would make the fighters pointless, ESPECIALLY with how weak they are. They are extremely cheap craft and thus likely to be present in quantity. It would be extremely difficult to field enough squadron commands to actually move them all at once, ever. Further, that permanently binds all present CIS command dials to squadron. It just seems generally unfair and unbalanced. Frankly, I'm fine with the CIS fighters as they are, I was more interested in the droid crews of the starships. If people are incredibly worried about the fighters becoming overpowered, a keyword could be written in to prevent the Vulture droids (the Hyena is a bomber and the trifighter is pretty normally priced, so this seems pointless) from attacking starships without squadron commands, relegating them to anti-fighter duty only.

Where do you get this impression. TIEs are also only able to take one hit, the only thing that makes TIEs better than Droid fighters is their living pilot and the larger fuel capacity (vultures can only fight for 35 min). And I dont find it unfair, that for example the Droid control ship will mostly .... control droids and not battle around like a battleship / battlecarrier that it wasnt.

Droids are far worse pilots and that should be represented, even more to make them special and not just fighters which stats we have seen before.

First, TIEs can take more than one hit. During the escape from the first Death Star, a TIE attacking the Millenium Falcon received glancing blows from its military-grade anti-fighter quad cannons and continued to fight. ( http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/LN_starfighter ) Vulture droids were shown at several points in TCW to be vulnerable to small arms fire, a much lower rating on durability there. Second, by the time of the Clone Wars, all battle droids, but starfighters in particular, did not need continuous contact with a Droid Control Ship to function in combat. All were equipped with basic subroutines that could continue to run in the event of connection loss. Otherwise the Republic would have jammed the CIS silly (like Thrawn did), and walked all over them. ( http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Variable_Geometry_Self-Propelled_Battle_Droid,_Mark_I ) Third (go read Myrmecology), I don't want to lock the CIS into always having a dedicated carrier if they want to bring fighters. As it stands, it is not possible to bring enough squadron command to shepherd that many Vulture fighters around the battlefield if you loaded up on them, and even if you did, you are locking all those command dials to Squadron Command only for the first several turns and that is a massive weakness way out of proportion to the effectiveness of the fighters. Fourthly, I'm fine with eventually giving the CIS Lucrehulk-class ships specially equipped with extremely high squadron values to act as carriers. However, Lucrehulks also fought as battleships. Versions refit during the Clone Wars carried hundreds of additional weapons emplacements, in addition to the 48 massive quad heavy turbolasers deployed at Naboo. These ships were also built for combat, with additional armor plating and even more powerful shield generators. Relegating them to merely carrier duty ignores the canon/EU you are trying to protect. ( http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lucrehulk-class_battleship ).

Fifth and most importantly, we are not here to exactly mimic canon/EU material. We are here to develop playable gaming cards and ideas. I'm fine with trying to prevent overpowered CIS squadrons, but I highly doubt that making them only able to move with a squadron command is in any way shape or form at all fair. I know if I were a CIS commander I would never bother. If you would, feel free to go for it, but I highly doubt that rule is at all balanced.

I fully agree with the sentiment that the "prime directive", as it were, is to make sure new units playable, balanced and rules-tight. Canon/fluff/lore, while also important, must be secondary to that.

That's not to say that droid fighters can't be made to work in a fundamentally different way than other squadrons... it just needs to be done elegantly and in a balanced way. I agree that locking a particular ship to Squadron commands would be bad game design - but there are less extreme solutions out there. We just need to think them through carefully.

For instance, one approach would be a keyword along these lines:

Droid X : You can be activated by ships at [close-long range / any range]. During the Squadron phase, treat your printed speed as X.

So droids would be somewhat/much slower than regular squadrons when acting independently, but would also be somewhat/much easier to activate by ships. Would something like that strike the right balance between gameplay and flavour?

Diablo, as usual, your solution seems to strike a decent balance. You could theoretically word the rule either way, that your speed is slower during the squadron phase, or that squadron command accelerates the fighters. I don't see a problem writing it either way, we just have to pick one. If we go this route, I would suggest the slow rate be either two or three (fighter speed 2 is really really slow), with activated speed be four, or possibly even five. I would want to play-test this, both against FFG units and the Clone Wars units. I'll try to throw an exercise together myself over the next few days and get back to you. I would leave range manipulation to either titles or upgrades though, to maintain balance. If the CIS gets extra abilities, make them pay for it.

Just got my Sundered Heart CR-90 refit from shapeways. Want to make cards to reflect its abilities. Please help!

I love this. My buddy and I play the RPGs and have used some of our notable NPCs as pilots and Ships

Just got my Sundered Heart CR-90 refit from shapeways. Want to make cards to reflect its abilities. Please help!

It sounds somewhat tame, but I think if used right in can be really good. In conjunction with Engine Techs, and especially with Raymus Antilles, it can be downright obnoxious. As you can spend a Navigate token (but not a dial) when resolving this ability, it can trigger Engine Techs for two chained moves -each with 2 clicks of yaw!- during your opponent's activation. This can even let you avoid a double-arc shot, by getting out of the way of the second attack before it happens. Raymus lets you use Engine Techs normally (with the dial) on one round and still save a token to use them with the evade token the following round.

In fact it may be too good, and will need some playtesting. So let me know how it goes

EDIT: updated link

Yes! Also, that artwork is beautiful. Can you make a Stat Card with that?

I was thinking increasing its acceleration by 1. IE being able to hit speed 4 turn 1 . I was also thinking about a defensive ability to weaken incoming enemy fire. This is what I gleaned from the fluff on wookepedia.

The Sundered Heart title card is supposed to just go on a standard CR90 Corvette. Functionally, beyond its ludicrously fast speed (which you get in the title) - its much the same, no?

I was thinking increasing its acceleration by 1. IE being able to hit speed 4 turn 1 . I was also thinking about a defensive ability to weaken incoming enemy fire. This is what I gleaned from the fluff on wookepedia.

And in any case with a Navigate command plus a Navigate token (which Raymus Antilles gives you for free) you can accelerate or decelerate twice per round.

As for the defensive ability, the fact that you can escape a devastating double-arc shot pretty much accounts for that. We don't want to make it too complicated or overpowered!

For the stat card... I guess I could, but it would look just like a CR90 card. Unless we give it a Contain or Brace token (instead of Redirect) to simulate the defensive ability?

I think brace would reflect it nicely.

Found a single good pic of light assult cruisers. http://starwarslegends.ucoz.com/_ph/2/669724989.jpg

They are one of the ships in the Republic at War mod for Forces of Corruption,so perhaps a modder could be coaxed into taking a few screen shots.

Another quick thought was give them the Droid keyword which simply states 'When a squadron with the Droid keyword is activated with a squadron command, treat it as having the Swarm keyword.' Reflects a better offensive capability while under direct control.

Anither thought to sorting out the droid fighters would be to make a new upgrade card secifically for cis capital ships. Droid fighters can gain swarm or some other passive boost while within 1 or 2 of the ship. The fighters after all did have to stay relatively close to the carrier ship to remain effective. This would also stop the need to create new rules (which was ine of DAs hopes when starting this thread. ) this could simulate the fact that it seemed the droid fighters typically could not travel far from their carriers. The shows and movies also typically showed them in a primary defensive posture around their ships. Im not sure if there were many instances of droid fighters venturing off by themselves to attack targets alone.

Ie. Similar stats to a tie fighter (minus the swarm). Maybe 1 point less. A ship upgrade called droid fighter coordinator or something 5 to 7 points or so. . . To give passive upgrades to the fighters at close range.

Found a single good pic of light assult cruisers. http://starwarslegends.ucoz.com/_ph/2/669724989.jpg

They are one of the ships in the Republic at War mod for Forces of Corruption,so perhaps a modder could be coaxed into taking a few screen shots.