Time to discuss an epic play mode? I just think that it is funny because the range ruler will be shorter then the whole ship, so sectional weapons are gonna have to come to play as you say. 1 attack/section/turn?

I think it should be command 6 so the entire game has to be planned. I like the idea of deploying it, and moving it speed 1 in a straight line for the games remainder, with a navigate only allowing it to stop or start, no turns. This assumes it is even usable in 6 turns. I think the biggest challenge would be to make it sinkable or be able to cripple it in a standard 6 turn game.Is the intention to fit it within a 6 turn game?

How do you make it fun to play against without it having that Borg cube complex?

Anyway, I was thinking you could simply play a scenario where it plods forward towards the enemy table edge/objective such as a station or planet, where if it reaches weapons range before being disabled or destroyed it pulverises the HQ/station/planet whatever, and the Empire enjoys the sweet taste of unlimited budget.

In regards to bases as long as they line up in some geometric semblance which seems to be a forgone conclusion, A single base spanning template should be feasable. Mat board would make that an easy fix.

Some thoughts after this week on adding Clone Wars Republic starfighters, since this still appears to be the most appropriate thread for this (I will see the Open Circle Armada one day... one day.)

ARC-170: Treated in canon as a powerful heavy starfighter, favored for durability and stopping power. Its anti-squadron is up in the air, most of theory floating around that the main guns on an ARC-170 are most of the length of a regular fighter. Also theoretically equipped with top of the line sensors, but we'll wait to see what the Intel keyword does for that.

HP: 6

AS: My main Armada partner and I have been playing around with different ideas here. Most center on an armament of three or four dice, with different sets thereof. One idea is a set of three, at least one blue and at least one red, the idea being that while red and blue have the same average damage, red dice offer opportunity for single passes of extra high damage from the two hits. Another thought is two blue, two black, again increasing damage, even without crits counting. The third idea is to throw precedent to the wind, and give an armament of two black, two red, which ought to make it an exceptionally powerful fighter against anything it can run down after Heavy keyword.

Battery: 1 Black

Speed: 3

Heavy

Cost: 14/15 pts

An idea for an ace here would be a squadron who can throw part of his AS(reds if they are in it) at range 2, again playing off the massive guns. The other idea, which we are questioning to keep the ARC-170 from becoming game breaking, is giving it a Counter 1, to account for that the fighter carried tail guns. After all, it was a three-man ship, and had a single man dedicated to the dual after cannons.

V-19 Torrent Starfighter: Something of an all-round moderate starfighter. Replaced later in the war by combinations of ARC-170s and V-wings, but regarded as a durable, decent fighter. This unit exists primarily to pin other units down for the ARC-170s to clean up.

HP:5

AS: 3 Blue

Battery: 1 Blue

Speed: 3/4(?)

Escort

Cost: 12 pts

V-wing Starfighter: Light short-range interceptor, and spiritual forerunner of the TIE series. Thus, light, fast and moderately armed, the A-wing of the options.

HP:4

AS: 3 Blue

Battery: 1 Blue

Speed: 5

Counter 2

Swarm

Cost: 12

Z-95: Immediate predecessor to the X-wing fighter, more lightly armed most notably and the GAR's cheap unit.

HP: 4

AS: 3 Blue

Battery: 1 Blue

Speed: 3

Escort

Cost: 10/11(?) pts

Aces for all of these units are forthcoming. I'm still fiddling with the Jedi starfighters. My initial impression is to make them ace-only units, and offer two or three Jedi per fighter as options to place on the field. Any thoughts, comments, concerns about any of the above?

They all look reasonable to me. Even RRBB for the ARC isn't absurd given its low speed, Heavy tag, and chronic shortage of Accuracy symbols (which makes it unable to defend itself from enemy Aces). Still, I'd propose something more like this:

HP: 6

AS: 3 Red (those heavy cannons are unlikely to hit fighters, but when they do...)

Battery: 1 Blue, 1 Red

Speed: 3

Heavy

Counter 1 (not problematic as it can't force engagements)

Cost: 13 (15 with Bomber)

This is a bit more anti-ship oriented than you suggested, and I would even consider giving it Bomber. It did carry proton torpedoes, and in any case there don't appear to be any other Clone War era fighters capable of fulfilling that role (the PTB-625 is a proper heavy bomber, and the H-60 wasn't really in active service). Having said that, I'm not much of a Clone Wars fan. So I'm not sure I'm the best person to help stat these cards.

Hmm, v9 torrent and V-wing could both drop a little in hull points, they seem a little too tanky.

Also, a single red die for an anti-ship attack is already pretty good for the ARC, I would leave it at that.

The theory on hull points is that I'm trying to avoid making ships that already exist in Armada already. The V-19 was also supposedly known as a relatively tough starfighter, if not the nimblest. There's also something of a limit to the utility of Escort on a lighter fighter. The thought I came to on the ARC-170 was divvying up its abilites between it and the NTB-630, a cousin of the ship.

ARC-170/NTB-630

Hull: 6

Speed: 3

Heavy

Counter 1

ARC-170

AS: 2 Red, 2 Black

Battery: 1 Red

Cost :13 pts (Going to playtest this)

NTB-630

AS: 3 Red

Battery: 1 Red, 1 Black

Bomber

Cost: 15 (Going to playtest this as well)

Also, if we really get bored and want more ships, the mod Republic at War for Star Wars: Empire at War is swimming in new ships.

Also it's one of them sharp pointy types, why does it have stronger sides than front?

Turbolasers and missiles are mounted in the side on the hull. I think they would have arc issues hence the difference in firepower.

Wookiepedia isn't a good source. I would look at the ship model itself.

Wookiepedia says that all the guns point forwards, so it's not that.

Also, a single red die for an anti-ship attack is already pretty good for the ARC, I would leave it at that.

I kinda preferred Red and Black but no bomber. I ran the numbers: a bit under 10% chance of scoring 3 hits, 20% of scoring 2 hits, 55% of scoring 1 hit, 15% of scoring no hits. Average damage output is 1.25 with no possibility of crits.

For comparison, the average damage output of existing fighters:

B-Wing: 1.5 (with crits)

Y-Wing and TIE Bomber: 1 (with crits)

X-Wing: 0.75 (with crits)

TIE Advanced: 0.63 (no crits)

TIE Fighter and Interceptor: 0.5 (no crits)

Hmmm, on second thought, 1.25 is a tad high even for a "heavy-hitter". How about Red and Blue (for 1 dmg, no crits)? But even then, why ever bother with the TIE Bomber or the Y-Wing? I guess Red with bomber is probably fine.

Anyway, if it's OK with you, I'll make the following cards only for now:

ARC-170 (heavy strike fighter)

V-19 Torrent (medium fighter)

V-Wing (light interceptor)

Z-95 (cheap medium fighter)

BTL-B Y-Wing (bomber)

And maybe the Delta-7/7B and Eta-2 Jedi starfighters.

This pretty much covers the entire Republic snubfighter force. There's simply insufficient data (let alone good images) to make the NTB or other units that have only appeared in mentions here and there.

I'm curious how you plan on differentiating between on the Clone Wars and Civil War Y wing?

I'm curious how you plan on differentiating between on the Clone Wars and Civil War Y wing?

Wookiepedia says that all the guns point forwards, so it's not that.

If you look at the Talk page for the Arquitens article, you'll see that the only source for that statement is that the cannons are retracted into the hull during atmospheric re-entry in an episode of Clone Wars. One Wookieepedia editor extrapolated from this feature that the cannons can also swivel through a very large angle to fire forward, but apparently this is neither seen nor mentioned in the episode (or in any other source, for that matter). I will endeavour to watch the episode in question, and if you are able to provide any other convincing sources on the subject, I'll be happy to revise the card. But, from my perspective, a fan's pet theory isn't sufficient basis to warrant it.

Assuming the slope of the pointy bit in the front is about 30 degrees (each side being 15) then if the guns cover 150 degrees (rather, 75 to the front) they'll converge. What evidence is there that they don't?

After Action Report for playtest. TL:DR, everything works, we ran the two fighters I posted a while back, and the decision was to up the ARC-170 to 14 pts and drop the NTB-630 to RR AS, which can really switch to being the BLT-B Y-wings, since they work more or less the same way. Also Raymus and Katana is not as OP as it sounds.

Imperial Fleet - 449 pts

2x Venator-class Imperial Refits (One of each variety)

Flight Controllers and Enhanced Armament Each

Refit 2 (balanced armament version) with Motti and Yularen

1x Arquitens-class CL

1x Tartan-class Patrol Cruiser

Diadem

4x ARC-170 (6 HP, RRKK AS, R Battery, 3 Speed, Heavy, Counter 1)

2x NTB-630 (6 HP, RRR AS, RK Battery, 3 Speed, Heavy, Counter 1)

2x TIE Advanced

Rebel Fleet - 449 pts

2x Katana Fleet Dreadnoughts

Mon Mothma on one

Katana and Raymus on the other

2x CR90Bs

Leia and Overload Pulse

Leading Shots and Dodonna's Pride

1x DP-20

Dream Runner & Enhanced Armament

"Dutch" Vander

Wedge Antilles, Luke Skywalker, and 3x X-wings

The battle ended with both Star Destroyers in good condition, one zooming away from the fight because Command 3, the Arquitens, Tartan, Katana, Dream Runner, and Dodonna's Pride all destroyed, and all Rebel fighters destroyed, for the loss of two ARC-170s. All in all, all ships performed very well, none proving to be exceedingly powerful. The Arquitens acquitted itself very well in the role of corvette killer, as the Tartan did as a light screening ship for the Imperial fleet. Both Dreadnoughts proved very sturdy, Katana brought down at the end of the game by a suicidal ram from the Tartan and an ARC-170 and both 630s pouring fire into the shieldless victim a Venator had just provided. Short battle summary, Fleet Ambush put all the Rebel fighters and corvettes in the middle of the field in front of a Star Destroyer, resulting in a furball of the aforementioned, (every **** fighter was gunning for the same tiny patch of space), then once that cleared, a second slower melee of the heavier ships. Katana accounted for both the Arquitens and the Tartan. To the above note with Katana and Raymus, while they theoretically offer the same ability as Tarkin, the crippling of Katana's command dial in the Rebel's view was not worth the effort. It is also to be noted on several occasions the Star Destroyers forced Katana to not go first to save a different ship (or allow it to do something prior to being obliterated), further decreasing its effectiveness.

Primary change notes: The ARC-170s have an absurd alpha strike capability, since Heavy does not prevent them from swarming forward and unleashing all of their firepower on a handful of targets. The lack of accuracy tokens proved a moot point when enough damage was thrown to beat through Wedge and Vander's braces (they were the point Rebel fighter squadrons), after all four ARC-170s and the Advanced swooped in to destroy them. Both were dead by the end of the first engaged turn. Heavy worked exactly as expected, giving the Rebels some room to maneuver through the 170s, but they hit so hard it proved very risky to ignore them. Against the above listed stats, I would leave the ARC-170 stats alone, but increase cost to 14, to respect their incredible power as superiority fighters, and drop a red from the AS of the NTB-630. I would suggest in this instance that the 630's stats transfer to a CW variant of the Y-wing, perhaps also exchanging one or both reds for blues, as the Y-wings didn't carry guns the size of some small speeders.

Otherwise it was a fun match. The losses sound lopsided, but the Imperials essentially engaged the Rebels piecemeal, with predictable results. Excellent work by all, this is one of the best threads here on the forums.

Nice to see the customs get some use. Not everyone in my group will accept their use so it is harder to arrange.

Rebel from the playtest here. In retrospect, I should have led with the Dreadnaughts and t he Gunsh ip and blasted the CR90s forward at speed 4 to catch up, but hindsight is 20/20 and I can still kick your teeth in with my Assault Frigate Giled don't you ever forget it. In the meantime, I've been working on statting the Separatist fighters.

First off, the Vultures, which I see essentially as a disposable screen, even more so than TIEs.

Vulture Droid

Hull: 1

Speed: 4

AS: 2 Blue

Battery: 1 Blue

Cost : 5pts

Anything that hits it will kill it, but ideally they'll have the raw numbers to take that, and they're absolute murder against aces with limited tokens. Anti-squadron fire, however, will rip them apart.

Hyena Droid

Hull: 2

Speed: 4

AS: 2 Blue

Battery: 1 Black

Bomber

Cost: 9pts

A slightly tougher Vulture with Bomber, as a way to add on AS capability. A black die with bomber might be too much, and I'm considering swapping it out for a blue, but it shares the Vulture's problem of being incredibly fragile.

Tri-Fighter Droid

Hull: 4

Speed: 3

AS: 3 Blue 1 Red

Battery: 1 Black

Cost: 11pts

An X-Wing on a budget, essentially. In a theoretical sense it has 1 blue per light laser cannon and one red for the heavy cannon but that shouldn't change much besides flavor. My thought for representing the buzz droids, which I consider an essential part of the CIS flavor, is an ace that inflicts per-round damage to all fighters engaged with it, but that seems stupidly overpowered, and what I might do instead is a really low-speed squadron that can be dropped off from ships like the Lambda and used as anti-squadron mines. For a small CIS ship, Giled and I came up with the Wavecrest, but I haven't seen a model for it yet.

Well when your normal/basically only sparring partner likes some of the customs himself it gets a bit easier. We came to the agreement that we would only use customs that either came from these forums or were approved by the same, to make sure that they were neutrally OP.

Thanks for the feedback and the playtesting! I'm really happy to see some customs hitting the table.

I'm not sold on the super-powered ARCs, I just can't see a basis for such an overwhelming superiority to anything else. It's almost obscene, especially given their supposed role. I can see three reds and counter 1, or if you really insist two reds and two blacks - but then without counter and at reduced speed.

As for the CW Y-Wing getting two red dice... why? EDIT: It had the same armament as the later-era version, the only significant difference is the armored fairings and the operational turret.

Generally speaking, I want to make sure Clone War era ships and squadrons don't end up being better than their replacements. At best, they ought to be generally equivalent.

Assuming the slope of the pointy bit in the front is about 30 degrees (each side being 15) then if the guns cover 150 degrees (rather, 75 to the front) they'll converge. What evidence is there that they don't?

Like I said, I'm prepared to change the card if it turns out to be warranted - but the burden of proof is on your side.

To the above note with Katana and Raymus, while they theoretically offer the same ability as Tarkin, the crippling of Katana's command dial in the Rebel's view was not worth the effort. It is also to be noted on several occasions the Star Destroyers forced Katana to not go first to save a different ship (or allow it to do something prior to being obliterated), further decreasing its effectiveness.

-It ties up Katana's command dial

-Katana will not always go first; a good opponent can force your hand quite often by applying pressure elsewhere

-You need to plan the command two or three turns in advance (depending on the Dreadnaught model) rather than right when you need it

-It takes up two upgrade slots

Still, I wasn't sure whether 12 points was expensive enough. What's your impression?

The other fellow I play with is just waiting on mod approval for his first post so you can ask him directly, but generally we thought it was balanced. He actually found that, even with the Command 2 for a Katana Fleet Dreadnought the effort and trouble required was enough of a separate cost that I wouldn't be too worried about it being OP. It forces you build your plan around Katana first, and at several points his corvettes had to go first, lest the Venators and Arquitens annihilate them without a fight. The one characteristic we did not test was the Tartan's AS armament and Diadem, he respected it too much to run the risk of testing it.

To the problem of the ARC-170s, they were the Republic's superiority fighter for the end of the war. That's the only role we see it in any media I'm aware of (save Battlefront where EVERYTHING can be multi role) and it's not bad at it. My understanding was that they were retired from frontline duty at the end of the war not for being obsolete but being expensive super fighters and not fitting the new Imperial TIE strategy of zillions of expendable ships, exactly what a 170 has trouble dealing with. I still think it's stats should be left alone and its cost bulked, we thought 14, but maybe 15 to account for it. They are very powerful fighters but they also are only as fast as X-wings. Against Rebels they hold their own for this reason. If faced with a large number of speed 4 (the entire Imperial collection) or speed 5 (interceptors) the ARCs will have the same problem most Rebel fighter lists face, of easily being forced to be attacked first instead of attack first, negating their alpha strike. They're also extremely expensive at either 14 or 15, badly hampering any commander because your opponent can field infinitely more fighters than you can at any cost. To me that seems balanced since the ARCs still don't hit hard enough to kill anything on average on the first pass, only TIE units one time in two, further accenting numerical issues. For me I'd always have a handful on hand, but only 170s sounds very risky. It's certainly not only X-wings. Finally, again the numbers problem, it's not implausible that 170s waste squadron commands by not allowing you to field the full number of fighters you could otherwise, especially with carrier ships like the Venator. My thoughts on the subject.

TL;DR: ARC-170 stats stay the same but up cost to 14 or 15 pts. They suit a certain play style and are very good but have glaring weaknesses easily exploited.

Edit: Myrmecology is here, go scroll up some.

I hear you, but I still think Hull 6 plus Counter 1 already makes this extremely powerful: even if it gets jumped without an escort, it's likely to deal at least 1 or 2 damage before it's destroyed. And I'm not sure I'd consider speed 3 a "glaring weakness", though I suppose Heavy doesn't help.

Anyway, I ran the numbers for 3 Red dice, and though of course the average damage dealt is lower than for 4 Blue, the likelihood of scoring 4+ hits is actually slightly higher. I haven't yet run the damage distribution for two Red two Black, but I's almost certainly obscene. Later when I have some time I'll run that vs two Red two Blue.

In the meantime, this is what I've been doing:

P.S. Welcome Myrm! And thank you for taking our cards for a spin

We might run some more of these this Thursday, along with some custom ships if we do, if our regular match is not disturbed. Methinks the ARC-170 is the single most powerful non-ace fighter, but also easily the most expensive. We'll see how the above changes how it fights. If it throws a red dice for battery, I'm not sure it needs bomber to be dangerous to ships, and this fighter is already in serious danger of being OP. If we drop bomber, I don't think I'd lower the cost though. Two red two black is extremely deadly, but same theoretical max damage as three red, so this ought to lower average damage a tad. You are right, Speed 3 isn't much of a weakness, until you consider Heavy. It would I expect be much more critical against interceptors or TIEs than run of the mill Rebel units. Everything else looks solid. Do we have any ideas on ace abilities for any of these fighters? Squad Seven for the 170, Shadow Squadron for the Y-wings as pilots, I'd have to dig for more. And for Jedi starfighters, Eta-2 and Delta-7, I would be tempted to make a selection of ace fighters, two or three perhaps, but no non-unique squadrons, to reflect that only Jedi flew those fighters into combat. Of course, this just means we have to fiddle with more ace abilities, new or otherwise. I'll sit down and come up with a few to post here in the next few days.

Would anyone like to work on developing the CIS fleet a bit, now that we've pretty thoroughly covered the bulk of the Republic, barring Acclamators (which were never intended to be warships anyway). Myrmecology and I both think it would be a hoot to deploy what amounts to a Clone Wars battle scenario, and are more than willing to work with folks to see it happen. Mel already sells the Munificent.... (on which there is a post somewhere in this thread.)

Good work guys, this has been a great read.

We can make a nice republic fleet now with Venators, Acclamators and Arquitens plus new fighters! No torrents though?

No torrents though?

I think when I have time I'll also make a Republic-themed card base and, eventually, one for the CIS too.