I'd love to see usable torpedoes become a common equip on X-WIngs. Since nobody else hardly ever uses them, it'd add a lot of dimension.

Wall of Text for those interested in digging into design intent...

Without any other limitations, that 'droid would be used in Y- and E-Wings. It'd be a scary buff for the Ys, but interesting.

IMHO that R3 should cover focus tokens as well as TL tokens. Just in case.

IMHO that R3 should cover focus tokens as well as TL tokens. Just in case.

Might be too much of a buff. We'd see a lot of Blaster Turret Ys floating around I think, which could be nasty with the title.

Without any other limitations, that 'droid would be used in Y- and E-Wings. It'd be a scary buff for the Ys, but interesting.

Yes, but it would cost 2 for the droid and then full cost for the torpedo on the Y. With Bomb Loadout available, and with turret upgrades that benefit more from other droids... It seems like the opportunity cost for the R3 plus torpedo is high enough to balance.

I'm ok with it being used on E-Wings.

IMHO that R3 should cover focus tokens as well as TL tokens. Just in case.

Might be too much of a buff. We'd see a lot of Blaster Turret Ys floating around I think, which could be nasty with the title.

With R3 affecting 'Attack: Target Lock' only, the buff is auto limited to torpedoes. There are zero ships that have both an astro slot and missiles, and there are no A:TL turrets.

IMHO that R3 should cover focus tokens as well as TL tokens. Just in case.

Might be too much of a buff. We'd see a lot of Blaster Turret Ys floating around I think, which could be nasty with the title.

Pretty sure dvor was tossing in some sarcasm.

No. Not at all.

I was thinking of future torpedo upgrade cards requiring focus instead of TL. Like proton rockets.

In that case, hopefully any new torpedoes would be better balanced and not need this buff.

But if it applies to focus as well then one gets free blaster turrets on y wings. While this would be amazing I think Kyle katarn would like a word with you

I really intend R3 to be a torpedo fix. I'm starting to think that torps are so broken and thus under-represented that it makes an attempt at reintroduction seem like an auto-fail.

I think a better language for the R3 is "If an attack requires you to spend a target lock, you may reroll any number of attack dice during that attack."

This requires you to spend the target lock, but you still get rerolls. Otherwise you could roll really well for a torpedo attack and keep your target lock for another attack.

I'd love to see usable torpedoes become a common equip on X-WIngs. Since nobody else hardly ever uses them, it'd add a lot of dimension.

Wall of Text for those interested in digging into design intent...

I started with MajorJuggler's House Rule of an X-Wing Refit that costs 0 and subtracts 3 points from any upgrade. He also suggests it costs 1 for Biggs & Wedge. Instead of applying the 3 point deduction to any upgrade, I wanted to create a more thematic fix. Looking at the X-Wing cards, I decided that nothing would be more thematic than making their two upgrade slots more useful. So my rewording means there's no discount for an upgrade, a 2-point discount for astros, and a whopping 3 point discount for torpedoes.

TheRealStarKiller started an X-Wing fix thread listing barrel rolling and evading astromechs. I'm all for them. But I also thought a torpedo bot would help the cause. He also went the route of reducing the astromech cost via a modification card. I am going the title route here because I want to leave open the design space to add EU or whatnot.

Now a 3 point reduction on the X-Wing's torpedo slot may seem pretty extreme. But it also screams fun. Don't you want to field 4 Reds with Proton Torps now? Isn't that what the designers originally intended?

The proposed R3 Astromech could also go on a Y or an E, but those ships will be paying 2 points for R3 and using torps without the cost reduction of the X-Wing Refit. For the Y, going with the torpedo bot means you're passing on Bomb Loadout or Extra Munitions since they both take up Torpedo slots. For the E.... well, the E needs a boost too. I'd be game for an E-Wing Refit that does the same thing (or maybe adds a discount for systems... but that gets awfully close to the x1 title).

Extra Munitions and Bomb Loadout both take up a Torpedo slot, meaning that both of those 'fix' cards are unusable on an X-Wing. Instead of following the same route of using the torp slot to buff something else, I want to make the X-Wing's torp slot particularly effective. I also wanted a way to buff the X without buffing the B. The B has two torpedo slots but no astro slot. So, 'fix' the torpedo using the astro slot and you can avoid buffing the B's torpedoes.

These aren't the fixes we're looking for. You can go about your business...

Just kidding... but I do think that this presents several problems.

a) It doesn't fix ordinance, it just makes it suck less on an x-wing.

b) People hate ordinance and this does nothing for those people that want to fly the ship without a torpedo... because they HATE ordinance.

c) It will make people who are already upset about ordinance sucking be really angry that it wasn't fixed for everyone.

d) An astromech discount is less than thrilling when the generic astromechs are boring and not satisfying as a fix, and the few good droids are unique.

The X-wings weakness is that it doesn't have anything that it does better than any other ship. I think what it needs is something that either makes it cheaper, more maneuverable, more survivable, or more versatile. Honestly, I'd like to see multiple options so that the X-wing could be configured in various configurations.

I keep seeing people try to fix the x-wing with it's astromech slot, but i think the real solution is to do something with the useless torpedo tube.

I'd like to see an option to plug the tube and shave 2-3 points off it a la Chardaan Refit (-3 pts for generics, -2 pts for uniques). If the X-wing can't reposition, it at least needs to be cheap enough to be a viable swarmer, and I don't think 18 points is unreasonable for a ship that's marginally better than a Z-95. I also think the rebels lack a ship in the 18-19 point range (Green and Gold Squad Pilots need upgrades) and I feel that this would fill the role nicely.

I'd also like to see an option that allowed you to replace the torpedo tube with a systems upgrade slot (maybe shave off a point in the process) or gave you some additional repositioning options. Honestly, I'd err on the side of making the x-wing maybe a little too good (like the TIE Advance fix) because it's the most iconic spaceships in the SW universe and because the game is named after it.

I was intending to go a little further with R3 and remove needing AND spending a TL to fire the torpedo. That way low PS Rookies and Reds could focus on their turn and fire their torpedo on targets that move within Range 3 later in the Activation phase.

Rookie Pilot (21) + X-Wing Refit (0) + R3 Astro (2-2=0) + Proton Torpedo (4-3=1) = 24 points x4

The Rookies move forward, Focus, and each unleash 4 red dice with focus on a range 3 target. After that alpha strike, you're back to the usual X-Wing limitations with an astromech that doesn't buff anything any more. So there's a cost, but I'm wondering if it's worth it.

I'd love to see usable torpedoes become a common equip on X-WIngs. Since nobody else hardly ever uses them, it'd add a lot of dimension.

Wall of Text for those interested in digging into design intent...

I started with MajorJuggler's House Rule of an X-Wing Refit that costs 0 and subtracts 3 points from any upgrade. He also suggests it costs 1 for Biggs & Wedge. Instead of applying the 3 point deduction to any upgrade, I wanted to create a more thematic fix. Looking at the X-Wing cards, I decided that nothing would be more thematic than making their two upgrade slots more useful. So my rewording means there's no discount for an upgrade, a 2-point discount for astros, and a whopping 3 point discount for torpedoes.

TheRealStarKiller started an X-Wing fix thread listing barrel rolling and evading astromechs. I'm all for them. But I also thought a torpedo bot would help the cause. He also went the route of reducing the astromech cost via a modification card. I am going the title route here because I want to leave open the design space to add EU or whatnot.

Now a 3 point reduction on the X-Wing's torpedo slot may seem pretty extreme. But it also screams fun. Don't you want to field 4 Reds with Proton Torps now? Isn't that what the designers originally intended?

The proposed R3 Astromech could also go on a Y or an E, but those ships will be paying 2 points for R3 and using torps without the cost reduction of the X-Wing Refit. For the Y, going with the torpedo bot means you're passing on Bomb Loadout or Extra Munitions since they both take up Torpedo slots. For the E.... well, the E needs a boost too. I'd be game for an E-Wing Refit that does the same thing (or maybe adds a discount for systems... but that gets awfully close to the x1 title).

Extra Munitions and Bomb Loadout both take up a Torpedo slot, meaning that both of those 'fix' cards are unusable on an X-Wing. Instead of following the same route of using the torp slot to buff something else, I want to make the X-Wing's torp slot particularly effective. I also wanted a way to buff the X without buffing the B. The B has two torpedo slots but no astro slot. So, 'fix' the torpedo using the astro slot and you can avoid buffing the B's torpedoes.

I think the OP's fix idea is right along the lines of what they will end up doing. I know that it is about the same as the fix for the advanced, but a title that reduces the cost of astros along with a few new options is pretty thematic, and will make the x pretty versatile. I had a list of new droids that I came up with a while ago, not going to print the full list, but there is a lot of design space there. One I had that I liked was....if you spend a target lock on an attack, you may change one (focus) to a crit. It works well with protons, and would be a boost overall after you fire the torp.

I like it, because I like the idea of X-wings using proton torpedoes fairly often -- though with only one torpedo slot, you get to fire only once..

I don't think it helps the overcosting of an X-wing much ... an X-wing with a Proton Torpedo is now the same cost as a B-wing, which still favors the B-wing, but at least it is an improvement.

Slipjoint, thanks for the in-depth reply! Now, I'll go about countering each argument you made.

a) It doesn't fix ordinance, it just makes it suck less on an x-wing.

I was in the front of the line hoping that the Wave 7 release contained the Universal Ordnance Fix that would bring balance to the Ordnance Force. But instead, it had Extra Munitions (that used a Torpedo slot) and some new bombs (which were already the most used ordnance). So with my inflated hopes dashed, I tried to think about why FFG would do this. I came to understand that a grand fix is very hard to do without stumbling into unintended consequences that unbalances something else. So I started thinking in terms of FFG's incremental approach of small buffs. You can add more buffs, but once one game element is over-buffed, you either have to nerf (which usually involves the much hated eratta) or re-buff everything else. So yes, my proposed Title and Astromech above may only make ordnance suck less on an X-Wing, but if my design goal is met (Torpedoes see regular use and the X-Wing finds new life) then I'm not going to worry that I didn't fix ALL ordnance.

b) People hate ordinance and this does nothing for those people that want to fly the ship without a torpedo... because they HATE ordinance.

This absolutely does nothing for people that want to fly the ship without a torpedo. That's why I made the X-Wing Refit a title and not a Modification. That leaves the Modification slot open for anyone who wishes to slap Engine Upgrade on their X-Wing. There are currently no Titles available for the X-Wing, so this truly gets in the way of nobody's current builds.

People hate ordnance because it is ineffective. When I first got this game (only a few months ago), I slapped at least one torpedo or missile onto every build. Honestly, it just felt right. But it didn't work right. I became disillusioned, bitter, and eventually hated ordnance myself. But I want to love ordnance. I do hope to provide a route to make it effective, and maybe it'll regain some love from everyone.

And stripping away the ordnance issue, my proposed title card knocks 2 points off the astromech. If you don't like ordnance, at least you can save a couple points on your maneuver or durability centered astromech.

c) It will make people who are already upset about ordinance sucking be really angry that it wasn't fixed for everyone.

This kind of bitterness I can do nothing about... until I can get over the X-Wing's need for a fix and start focusing on the next most needy ship.

d) An astromech discount is less than thrilling when the generic astromechs are boring and not satisfying as a fix, and the few good droids are unique.

I completely agree. That's why I proposed a more thrilling and non-unique "ordnance bot" and also referenced TheRealStarKiller's thread where he proposes additional astromechs with barrel roll and evade mechanics. The nice thing about astromechs is you can buff the X and E without buffing the B. You have to be somewhat careful because the Y can also take the buff and doesn't seem to need it as much as the X and E, but there you go.

The X-wings weakness is that it doesn't have anything that it does better than any other ship. I think what it needs is something that either makes it cheaper, more maneuverable, more survivable, or more versatile. Honestly, I'd like to see multiple options so that the X-wing could be configured in various configurations.

Again, I agree. What I tried to do with the title is open up two design spaces: the astromech and the torpedo. If we can't use these two spots to make the X-Wing better at something more than any other ship, then we have failed. You list cheaper, more maneuverable, more survivable, and more versatile. Cheaper? Well, I am only proposing free or nearly free upgrades. So the designers' original intent of no more than 4 X-Wings in a 100-point squad still holds, but now you've got more room to maneuver with the upgrades for those four ships. So hopefully you get more value for less points, if not strictly cheaper. More maneuverable? Pick an R2 Astromech for free, or plug in TheRealStarKiller's barrel roll droid. More survivable? A free R7 might help, or an R5-D8 for only 1 point. More versatile? What does that mean? Maybe cheap torpedoes that are easier to use makes it more versatile.

I keep seeing people try to fix the x-wing with it's astromech slot, but i think the real solution is to do something with the useless torpedo tube.

Funny you should mention the torpedo tube. I try addressing that with my proposed title.

I'd like to see an option to plug the tube and shave 2-3 points off it a la Chardaan Refit (-3 pts for generics, -2 pts for uniques). If the X-wing can't reposition, it at least needs to be cheap enough to be a viable swarmer, and I don't think 18 points is unreasonable for a ship that's marginally better than a Z-95. I also think the rebels lack a ship in the 18-19 point range (Green and Gold Squad Pilots need upgrades) and I feel that this would fill the role nicely.

That's not a bad idea. Maybe in order to force the squad designer to make a choice, it could be a title that removes the torpedo slot in exchange for -3 points for a generic or -2 points for a unique. That way you choose between the point discount title and the astro/torpedo discount title I put forth.

I'd also like to see an option that allowed you to replace the torpedo tube with a systems upgrade slot (maybe shave off a point in the process) or gave you some additional repositioning options. Honestly, I'd err on the side of making the x-wing maybe a little too good (like the TIE Advance fix) because it's the most iconic spaceships in the SW universe and because the game is named after it.

In my mind the systems upgrade slot is one of the few things differentiating the E-Wing from the X-Wing. Perhaps if the astro/torpedo title card could be used on both the X-Wing and E-Wing, then you would feel less need to tack a systems upgrade slot on the X-Wing.

I am with you on surreptitiously sneaking the X-Wing to the top of the list because, well, it's the X-Wing. It's the coolest looking ship in the game. All the other Rebel ships should be specialization ships that you fit in around the beloved X-Wing. And right now the Tie Advanced fix does look like the next big thing. I hope that as our excitement over the new Advanced title and pilots dies down we find that the Advanced has a specific role that it is best at. And that's what I want for the X-Wing as well. What role can we help it be the best at?

Neither astromech nor torpedo are a viable fix for the X-Wing. As both astromechs and torpedos are used on other ships, you create new imbalances. Another problem is that a working fix will become autoinclude, thus effectively shutting down a slot.

To fix ordnance, you need a rules change. To fix the X-Wing, you need something x-wing-specific, so probably a title.

I am the first to say the X-Needs a fix but i think this one is pretty hefty on cost reduction even if the second one is just on torps.

Make some more good Astromechs, but do not try to fix the X-Wing with them.

Give them a Modification discount instead with a mod enabling barrel roll for them or having a good discount on Engine upgrade. That helps named pilots was more than anything else.

For the generics you would need to make them a bit more durable to be cost effective.