Manticore are completely unchanged from their CK form from what I can tell..

They remain powerful sniper units, and awesome art is a plus!

However, I still feel they have very conditional usage since they are so very fragile and few maps support long range support monsters..

Nara is one scary looking warrior! That mouth.. Yikes!

I like her new heroic ability, but they nerfed her heroic feat to pierce instead of damage..

She is still alright, but I think her low health makes her tough to use, and now she packs less of a punch to make up for it...

I'd probably always pick Syndrael over her new form, sadly.

Nara is now useless and maybe one of the useless warriors from all the game

Manticores have now a 2x1 base (2x2 in the ck)

Sir Valadir is now a really cool and powerfull hero, maybe one of the strongest

Ispher is so cool that I maybe play hero back again !

Ogres are so nerfed that they become useless

Sir Valandir is a really strong offensive Juggernaut. Especially the fact, that his trait is triggered after dice are rolled.

Sir Valandir is a really strong offensive Juggernaut. Especially the fact, that his trait is triggered after dice are rolled.

Agreed, Validir looks cool! His hero ability combos with his heroic feat, too- so it's basically: recover all but 1 fatigue, and perform an attack with +3" worst case. Best case, you just roll the surge and don't need to use the fatigue.

Manticores have now a 2x1 base (2x2 in the ck)

Of the various changes the H&M packs make, these bug me more than anything. Changing abilities and figure sculpts is one thing, but changing the actual SIZE of the mini is awful.

I think the only thing that would potentially bug me worse is changing the NUMBER of figures in a group (has that happened yet?)

The more I see these H&M packs, the more I hate them.

I do not comprehend the hate- but perhaps that's just my lack of D1E history. I like these re-released heroes and monsters in comparison to their CK versions. The manticores do seem to have a narrower body shape than say, the wendigos- so it was odd that the manticores were 2x2 while the wendigos were 2x1. Now they're fixed- is that so wrong?

Kobold group limits have changed from 3/1, 5/2, 6/3 to 4/2, 8/2, 9/3 - however, the split ability has also been changed to small beginnings and spawner.

It's not "fixed" - it's "changed", and changed for the sake of change. They shrank the Manticore's - the 1E versions were MUCH more massive, so the comparison with Wendigo's isn't really fitting. It's not like the 1E versions were 2x2 but only taking up half that space. The change is almost akin to the Bane Spiders vs Cave Spiders - not the same scale at all!

So, "is that so wrong?" Yes, to me it is. Changing the stats and abilities is bad enough, but changing the SIZE and NUMBER of figures in the process, it just sits very poorly with me. I've vented my frustrations in other threads on the H&M concept in general, but this type of thing aggravates me even worse.

(Honestly, I'll guess the primary reason for the change: cost. It's cheaper to make a 1x2 figure than a 2x2 figure. That's not a good enough justification for me.)

Anyway, this product is obviously not marketed at people like me, so I've said my piece and I'll try and refrain from venting further At least until the next H&M pack where they screw up even more stuff.

I do not comprehend the hate- but perhaps that's just my lack of D1E history. I like these re-released heroes and monsters in comparison to their CK versions.

This is probably the main factor. For players that don't have the originals, there's no difference to notice.

But for those that DO own the originals, it's basically like FFG is trying to wean us off the CK to spend hundreds of dollars on more figures instead of using the ones we already own. And while I normally love FFG as a whole, this concept really irks me, as it seems very Games Workshop-y.

That's why I'd prefer it if they would just leave things alone (or make MINOR changes). Release the figures and cards similar to the CK to allow those that don't have 1E to use them, but not slap 1E/CK owners like this.

Let me start by saying that I recognize your points. You make good ones, and I understand your frustration. With that in mind, I'll now say that I think you're being unfairly critical of these packs, and of FFG's decision to make them (changes included.)

Let's take a hypothetical journey back to 2012, and pretend that FFG never released the conversion kit. Your collection of miniatures, cards, and map tiles from D1E have no place in the second edition. This doesn't really bug you- it's a new edition of the game- why should the old components be compatible? It would be really cool if there were an expansion released for the second edition to bring some of those old favorites into the new and different world of D2E. Then, in 2014, FFG announces hero and monster packs. Your old favorites- heroes and monsters alike- are coming back with new abilities, new artwork, and even new sculpts to paint (or not, if you're anything like me.) The altered monsters make sense- after all, they're being dropped into a new game, and they need to fit.

The only thing about that scenario that differs from reality (besides some possible exaggerations) is the existence of the conversion kit. Your tiles, cards, and all components from D1E are still useless, except the miniatures- and this is only so because FFG went to the trouble to print all new cards for those miniatures so that you could continue to use them- something they really had no responsibility to do. Now, after D2E has had some time to grow and evolve, they're giving those D1E monsters proper treatment and actually updating them for D2E, taking the time time to playtest and tweak them, rather than the bulk content release of the CK.

What I'm arguing, in short, is that you're disappointed with FFG for doing more for you (that is making the CK at all.) Yes, the hero and monster packs invalidate the conversion kit, and yes, they cost more money- but they are more than the conversion kit . The conversion kit, as I see it, was just a temporary fix to ease the transition into D2E- a gesture for the benefit of the longtime Descent crowd. It was (my opinion) a flawed and rushed adaptation of the D1E content to D2E which should not be expected to persist indefinitely.

Let's turn to dentistry for an analogy. You receive a root canal, and the dentist determines that to keep chewing food with that tooth, you're going to need a crown. A proper crown requires a few weeks of manufacturing in a lab, so he fashions a temporary plastic crown for you. This crown is not designed to stand the test of time, but is easy enough to make, and will do the job for a few weeks to months. When your finished crown arrives, do you complain that he is charging you for the final product because there's already a crown in your mouth? No- because the alternative would have been a lack of useability of that tooth until the finished crown arrived.

The old tooth that gets removed is D1E content. The temporary crown is the conversion kit, and the permanent crown is the hero and monster packs.

I'm not gifted with analogies, but I hope that made sense.

On top of all of that, as someone without a copy of D1E, I like the hero and monster packs for providing a way for me to access those monsters without hunting them down on ebay- for a similar price to what all the packs together will probably cost. Considering that the packs also include rumor quests, I'm sold.

This doesn't really bug you- it's a new edition of the game- why should the old components be compatible?

Actually, this would have really bugged me, and may have dissuaded me from getting the game at all. I invested too much into 1E to just trash it all and start over. Being able to bring my 1E stuff into 2E was a non-trivial factor in deciding to get into 2E. Whenever a new edition of a game I already have comes out, it's always a factor. It's why I won't be buying Nexus Ops, for example - I have the original edition, and while the new edition has some new things, it's not enough to justify me buying a whole new copy of something I already (mostly) have.

2E was nice in that it DID extend the bridge to the old 1E players via the conversion kit. And that was great - it made it an easier decision for me to switch.over. Some players who didn't have 1E stuff were a bit unhappy because they couldn't use the extra monsters, and I understand that. When the H&M packs were first introduced, I was fairly OK with it - let those who didn't get the original game be able to use that stuff.

Then I started seeing that it's NOT the same stuff. Changes here, changes there, some big, some small, but changes. Then some get more egregious than others. In throwing a bone to new players without the CK, they are essentially obsoleting that very thing that brought me into the game. That's why I'm unhappy, and I don't think it's unreasonable at all.

Had they not released the CK to begin with, fine. I may not have bought into D2E, but that's fine. The part that bugs me is they draw me in, then start doing this kind of thing to make me repurchase stuff I already own. For those that didn't have it before, there's nothing to lose.

I'm sorry, but I think my criticisms are completely fair. They weren't making these just to reintroduce these monsters to those that didn't have it - they wanted those that already had them to buy them again, too! And I'm not OK with that business plan.

It's not the reintroduced monsters that bugs me. I like that idea. I don't like (in fact, HATE) that they are making arbitrary and unnecessary changes along the way in a deliberate attempt to make the CK obsolete.

A few points of yours I disagree with:

- You say they are "more than the conversion kit". I disagree. They are different than the CK, sure, but I don't think they are more, or better. They are just different. No reason to be different, other than "why not."

- The root canal analogy doesn't fit here. They sold the CK as a bridge to 1E players. They never sold it as a temporary placeholder that would be invalidated later.

- The rumor quests aren't worth $35. (That's another part of it that bugs me, the only way to get them is to pay money to get a couple cards and a sheet of paper. The minis aren't worth it for me since I already HAVE the minis!)

Anyway, I'm getting riled up. This is a sore spot for me, and I don't want to take it out on anyone but FFG (a company that I honestly do like, overall, just not in this instance). So I apologize for any offense I doubt anything you or FFG can say will make me ever want to buy these packs, and in fact the more I have these discussions, the less I want to even consider it.

The conversion kit was sort of like Descent being like a backwards compatible video game system. You can keep using the old stuff you already had but eventually a new version was going to come out. You could also still use your old stuff if you'd rather.

Like I said, I underatand your frustration, and your position is in no way unreasonable- I simply have a different perspective. I don't see the changes as arbitrary (though there is no denying that changing things like base or group size actually disqualifies old mini usage, whereas before you could use old figures with new cards.)

Also, while the CK was not marketed as a temporary fix, I am suggesting that it served that purpose.

I didn't even notice the size change when they unveiled them, but I personally think the Manticores are better as 2x1 than 2x2.

Since I play with the Imperial Assault line of sight rules, having Manticores as 2x1 makes them a better unit that can actually utilize their strength as a sniper. If they remain flush with a thin wall they are able to draw LoS for attacks without being in LoS themselves. If they were 2x2, they stick out too much and heroes can much more easily strike back.

As said previously, I find it very hard to ever justify using Manticores because they are so terribly fragile and few in number. With this change, there may be more maps where you can pull off enough Ravaging ranged attacks to justify their presence.

On a side note, I received a root canal as a kid and the dentist didn't even give me a crown. Nowadays, they want to remove the tooth and give me an implant. So basically I got the 2nd Edition and no H&Ms... So I need 3rd Edition.

Also I'm not at all sad about H&Ms. I can understand how maybe 1st Edition players might feel ripped off. But for the price of 35 bucks, I really don't mind that you get 4 Hero Sheets and Figures, 3 sets of Monsters and 2 quests. The 1st Edition heroes and monsters were not created to be played in second edition. For those that loved 1st Edition, the CK gave those players a way to play them. The H&Ms gives new players a chance to play with the figures and as intended in the 2nd Edition. If you own the CK and 1st Edition, then that's still a viable alternative as nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything.

As a side note to the site note, I see that the MSRP of these things is $35, but based on vendors and whatnot, I've managed to buy each for $27 or less- over 6(+ ?) packs, that makes a difference.

Actually, I think it should be around 25 bucks myself.