FFG has posted a preview of the H&M collection Visions of Dawn.

Here is a link: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/5/7/fight-for-the-dawn/

I really like the mobility that they have given Master Thorn both with his innate ability and his heroic feat.

In addition, I also really like the Troll's Backswing ability - especially since you can choose the heroes affected by the attack that have to test Awareness. I can see all kinds of possibilities to be an EVIL OL.

I like Master Thorn, but I'm not really fond of the trolls....

I mean : they look great (nice skin), but are almost a copy of the giants in term of skills... (a little less hp/defense pool but a bit more damage and easier way to stun).

I liked the Conversion Kit Master Thorn a lot better. The ability is pretty much the same (I think the Visions of Dawn version is worded better and more clearly, but it has the same effect). The feat is much weaker, though. Granted, the new feat lets him reduce damage once, but 5 spaces is very gimpy compared with how far he could teleport before.

Even if I get this pack (unlikely, admittedly, since I have the 1E stuff and conversion kit), I'd probably not want to use this version of Thorn if I was a hero.

I liked the Conversion Kit Master Thorn a lot better. The ability is pretty much the same (I think the Visions of Dawn version is worded better and more clearly, but it has the same effect). The feat is much weaker, though. Granted, the new feat lets him reduce damage once, but 5 spaces is very gimpy compared with how far he could teleport before.

Even if I get this pack (unlikely, admittedly, since I have the 1E stuff and conversion kit), I'd probably not want to use this version of Thorn if I was a hero.

His ability is actually significantly more powerful than the CK version, because he is now placing his figure within 2 spaces, rather than moving two spaces. The new text of this ability allows him to (where it did not before):

-Go through monsters

-Go to the other side of portcullises

-Cross elevation lines

-Cross pits and lava spaces without taking damage

It's a hugely more versatile hero ability, with a less powerful heroic feat- I think it balances out.

I also like what they've done with trolls- their abilities are similar to those of Giants, but they are distinctly more offensively and less defensively oriented.

Even if I get this pack (unlikely, admittedly, since I have the 1E stuff and conversion kit), I'd probably not want to use this version of Thorn if I was a hero.

This brings up an interesting question for me. I would like to know how others address the above and the following:

I have everything for D2e. All of the box expansions, the CK, the H&M packs, the LT packs, etc.

The way we play is to do the following:

1. Choose who will be the OL (almost always me).
2. Choose heroes randomly. All hero cards are shuffled randomly, and 3 cards are dealt to each player. That player can choose 1 of the 3 heroes. The party as a whole can view each others cards and determine the best choices as a group.

We find that by playing this way, it adds an element of strategy to the game, forcing the group to make difficult choices as to party makeup. In addition, it can often lead to new knowledge, by playing heroes/classes that may not have been played before.

Anyway, since we have both the complete D1e heroes and monsters and the CK kit, as well as all of the H&M collections, we decide as a group which we will play with. In other words, we do not allow mixing and matching, say cherry picking just the perceived "best" version of a hero or monster. It's all or nothing.

What do you do?

I disagree that it balances out. I just finished a campaign with Thorn, and I rarely used his ability, favoring damage-boosting surge abilities from weapons instead. And while you are correct about some of the things that it allows, I'm not sure I agree the change is "significantly more powerful"; I'd classify it as "notably more powerful", but I think more often he's going to want to spend surges on damage where possible, unless he REALLY needs to move somewhere and has an extra surge from an attack.

I think the worst part of the new feat is you can only use it when attacked now. Before, you could choose when to use it, and although it took an action, you could move much further than 5 spaces, and ignored all terrain in the process. Now the main ability may let you ignore terrain, etc now, for the times where you may use it (which in my campaign, would have not been much more frequent than I did already), but the feat doesn't. In fact, now the main strength of the feat is the damage reduction - the movement points are almost a joke in comparison.

I stand by my statement - I like the old Thorn much better. The ability is a little better, but the feat is MUCH weaker, and would not want to use him over the original version.

That's part of what is irritating me about many of these new monster and hero packs - while there are some changes I like, most of them seem to be change for the sake of change, and it still feels like a huge slap in the face to people who bought the conversion kit.

What do you do?

Depends on who I play with. With my last campaign, my daughter was OL. I randomly drew 2 heroes of each archetype, and picked one from each. Then I chose a class I felt would suit the hero. If I was playing with a more experienced gamer, I may want to have a bigger selection.

I can't say what I'd do with the Hero & Monster Pack heroes and monsters, though, because I don't own them, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. This preview doesn't make me feel all that bad about my decision. I'm more likely to go through the previews of the packs, and if there are specific changes I like for some of the monsters, make a note of them (and maybe put a sticky dot on the monster card as a reminder). I don't need the minis, I've already got them, and that's the majority of the cost for these packs. In fact, the ONLY part of the packs that really interests me is the quests, and I find it quite irritating that I'd have to spend so much money on a couple cards and a quest sheet, when all the rest of the contents are, as far as I'm concerned, useless duplication.

I understand the desire for these packs for those that didn't have 1E or the conversion kit, but for me, they are not very appealing.

I really can't decide how I feel about the conversion kit- part of me thinks FFG should never have released it if they were planning to release the hero and monster packs anyway. On the other hand, for those who don't want the hero and monster packs but just want to use their already purchased 1E collection with 2E, it's very nice that the CK exists.

People are obviously free to make their own decisions in their own groups, but my group now treats the CK as if it doesn't exist. The only expansions we include in our games are the 2E ones- trying to decide on a case by case basis which "version" of a hero/monster is better is just too exploitable and subjective.

With regard to Thorn- you're right- his heroic feat is way less powerful than his old feat now- however, I would say that now his feat (and thorn in general) is more balanced with respect to the other heroes- in the CK version, his heroic feat was one of the most mobile abilities there was- I viewed it as too powerful, even though it took an action. This version of Thorn, I think I'd be much more likely to use his hero ability, and his feat would still be very nice when I wanted to use it. Rather than a cross-map teleport, it's a very handy escape tool now. You're surrounded by monsters, and the squishy mage is going to get knocked out- so after the first couple attacks, he decides to book.

I really can't decide how I feel about the conversion kit- part of me thinks FFG should never have released it if they were planning to release the hero and monster packs anyway. On the other hand, for those who don't want the hero and monster packs but just want to use their already purchased 1E collection with 2E, it's very nice that the CK exists.

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With regard to Thorn- you're right- his heroic feat is way less powerful than his old feat now- however, I would say that now his feat (and thorn in general) is more balanced with respect to the other heroes- in the CK version, his heroic feat was one of the most mobile abilities there was- I viewed it as too powerful, even though it took an action. This version of Thorn, I think I'd be much more likely to use his hero ability, and his feat would still be very nice when I wanted to use it. Rather than a cross-map teleport, it's a very handy escape tool now. You're surrounded by monsters, and the squishy mage is going to get knocked out- so after the first couple attacks, he decides to book.

Regarding the Conversion Kit, my feeling is that they originally didn't have plans to make the hero/monster kits like that. I suspect those came about because enough people said "Hey, I don't have 1E, but I want those heroes and monsters." I understand that, and I don't mind the new artwork. But it does bug me that they decided to change some of them in the process, especially since many of the changes aren't "for the better" in my opinion.

For the Feat, while it was powerful, it also depended on what you were trying to do. Teleporting across the map was nice, but it usually put Thorn alone, and that made him an easy (and somewhat squishy) target. The only reason I used it was because I had the Rune Plate armor, making Thorn a bit less easy to kill. I would have used it far less frequently had I not had good armor for him.

Even with the new ability, it would depend entirely on the weapon. When I'm making an attack, I'm much more likely to want to do things to cause more damage. I'm usually already where I want to be when making the attack, and only in a few situations would I want to move instead of boosting my attack.

But if the concern was that the feat was too powerful, I'm not sure that this "fix" addresses that, except that by allowing Thorn to teleport through doors, etc, with ANY surge, they've kind of defeated that purpose - instead of it being a once-per-encounter thing, it could happen many times throughout.

It just smacks of a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" thing - a change for the sake of change.

But I'll admit, I could just be generally soured by these packs. I would have much rather them just create fresh monsters and heroes rather than obsoleting a previous product.

Just a question about his feat. In IA, points gained out of turn must be used immediately. I can't recall if the same thing is true in Descent. I think maybe the wording of his ability is confusing me, since it only says "gain movement points" and not "immediately move x spaces"

I think there have been other places this has been addressed, and if I recall, it's similar to IA; movement points gained out of turn are used immediately.

I think there have been other places this has been addressed, and if I recall, it's similar to IA; movement points gained out of turn are used immediately.

Yes- your MP pool is a sieve when it's not your turn. Use them or lose them. It's funny, because up until now, I wasn't actually aware of many abilities that granted MP outside of a figure's turn- almost all of those abilities have allowed moving of spaces only. The exceptions I'm aware of are Thorn in his new form and Syndrael's heroic feat.

EDIT: I suppose the shadow walker's "Dark Shift" could also accomplish this if a hero was moved outside their turn by another ability.

"while there are some changes I like, most of them seem to be change for the sake of change, and it still feels like a huge slap in the face to people who bought the conversion kit."

I don't feel slapped.

I can't help but feel excited about more options.

I have the CK, and I am excited for these to come out.

I'm just a sucker minifigs and characters tho.. just the idea of having both the 'classic' and the 'new' versions is cool for me. And even the choice to choose one or the other, (based on such trivial things as art on the card).

I can see how these things can throw off stronger minded players, who take great interest in how the game plays on the table.

I'm more of an .. 'imagination' gamer.

And these Monster sculpts are just awesome.

edit: Certainly can concur with the idea of them creating new heroes, and new monsters, over obsoleting their own product tho. (even tho It doesn't make me feel like my purchase is obsolete.)

Malev

By "equal number of movement points" in his heroic feat, is that number equal to how many hearts are reduced?

By "equal number of movement points" in his heroic feat, is that number equal to how many hearts are reduced?

I do believe that is the case- and that is why the attack actually has to deal damage, otherwise zero MP gained.

I love those trolls! Very nice ability, which begs to be complemented with a set of Befuddles and the likes. Obviously this will not work very well with just "any" hero group, but why not having monsters very good at doing one thing, I like specilized abilities a lot.

Thorn looks like a very annoying character. A mage with movement abilities like these seems quite powertful at first sight,

Trolls look really great. 2 Damage + Stun while not requiring any surges makes this ability strong and cost effective against certain parties and leaves any surges rolled free to be spend elsewhere.

... by allowing Thorn to teleport through doors, etc, with ANY surge ...

Portculis, yes. Door, no.

Closed doors block range, and spaces on opposite sides of a door are non-adjacent. You cannot count spaces through a door.

if u use his heroic ability and want to use the teleportation rune aswell then u can get 4 space / attack, u can go 8 spaces then and still attack

if u use his heroic ability and want to use the teleportation rune aswell then u can get 4 space / attack

This is true, but it would be costly at 2 surges. Still, if you're using Thorn as the mobile treasure searcher of your group, it could be very useful. It would also make him a really cool conjurer... I do love that class.

I'm thinking he would make an great conjurer.

Think about it: summon up Image tokens, then rest up (or use a stamina potion) then on the next turn spend 3 stamina to perform Prismatic Assault. You perform an attack with each Image token on the map, use 1 surge from each attack to move 2... pop, pop, pop, you've skipped 6 squares over hostile terrain or through portcullises AND attacked 3 times.

ETA: Also possible by using the Geomancer's Cataclysm for 1 fatigue less, plus the fact you don't take damage if the OL "pops" your stone before you unleash "heck"

New manticores are great! Ranged ravage with pierce...

New manticores are great! Ranged ravage with pierce...

New manticores are very cool- but new Nara is also pretty nice with that new hero ability- defeating large monsters is very beneficial.

positives

4 attacks from 2 figs (one respawn and u can get out 2 attacks)

long range units

good movement

good Pierce

negatives

only 1 gray def dice

manticores ( it is an artillery) is well suitable for some missions, W ith good positioning can accomplish much damage , but if the heroes goes for the manticor it goes down fast

Nooooo!!! What did they do to Nara!! I loved her before.... Yeah, now the heroic ability gives her nice mobility, but before was a real crusher, and the feat combined well to make a +3 attack.