Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Knight Templars during 13th century didn't have internet or astorpaths.

Venecian Tradehouses during 15th and 16th century didn't have internet or astropaths.

Still, both managed to build extensive banking and money-lending empires which even kings were using. Actually, during most of the known human history wealthy people have never actually carried their wealth as cash. A good name, solid reputation and signed documents are how really wealthy people have used their wealth in past.

I'd fully expect Rogue Trader to havea substantial part of his actual wealth distributed over several banks and some of it also tied to noble houses in loans. If he needs to use the wealth he simply writes a check adressed to and usable by one person and cashable in one bank or noble house.

Like a noble in middle ages a Rogue Trader would never even think of writing a check which bounces because once the story about this gets out he would lose everything. No-one would ever again give anyone in his fleet any credit, no-one would ever again do cash business without checking all the thrones for authentity, no-one would lend money to him or from him or even pay back old debts. In essence every business transaction would turn extremely difficult for him, no-one of any repute would work for his fleet and his career would be over right then and there.

Just pay for everything in Obscura it keeps your trading partners loyal and is unlikely to ever lose value completely.

St. Jimmy said:

It would suck being you and having a cold XD

If you don't like the Astropathic transference of financial data, you could have a Bank give the RT a chip containing his current balance and keyed to his gene-code. Whenever he arrives on a new world that has the same banking house, he could check in his chip and access the funds. Of course if he loses the device containing the data, he's in a lot of trouble. Before he left a world, he would have to check his chip back out, with the new balance reflected.

Actually, that just whacks you with pretty much the same problem: the money to actually pay for it is elsewhere; and it limits them to only using one banking house (meaning they're screwed if they ever need to pay for big stuff in a system without a branch). In addition, the bank needs to know how much a person has as well, meaning they'd have to transmit data of some description, or have local branches physically ship their records back at (semi)regular intervals. And that's quite aside from the problem of ensuring each branch has the right gene-codes for each customer- the chip and a sample from its' bearer at the time of transaction wouldn't be enough to be secure in and of themselves, as all it would take is a smart heretek to crank out a load for people that don't have an account and the system crashes. Sure, they could update the system, but that'd end up requiring the recall and reissue of the every chip (or that person effectively loses their cash).

The other option is something far more akin to an older mercantilist approach (letters-of-rights, bearer bonds and so on), or having the raw data (probably encrypted, encoded, enciphered, et cetera) punted astropathically.

Quite alot of interesting ideas, I'll prob borrow a bit from most of them.

I was thinking of expanding on that by not only haveing a large degree of wealth held up in Holdings( moons/planets, space stations/outpost or mines etc) and their ship, and as well as using a solid reputation and signed documents etc (as mentioned earlier).

Earlier someone mentioned about the RT printing money to bank roll themselves, so i thought why couldnt the RT upon arrival at certain 'civilised' locations, arrange an exchange rate. After trading and/or buying whatever had brought them there why not create a on off or perhaps a variable exchange rate for the RTs printed money. This doesnt quite solve where the RT would keep their thrones but it give a viable option of how to pay the crew, when at a location that an exchange rate has been agreed upon for the local currency print the money dish it out to the crew (sections at a time) give them oppourtunity to blow all their earnings over the course of the next few weeks/months.

Sort of solving how the crew could be paid from time to time and if its an established practice then the RT having some of their wealth stored in note form for when they come to a plce of an agreed exchange rate they have lots of dosh. (also the option for massive fraud lol)

Actually, that just whacks you with pretty much the same problem: the money to actually pay for it is elsewhere; and it limits them to only using one banking house (meaning they're screwed if they ever need to pay for big stuff in a system without a branch).

Even if you banking house has no branch where you are, it's likely (at least in reasonably important systems) that there's a local naking instituion that they can contract with to provide the service. Probably at a fee of course, but it can be done. The local bank pays for you, then forks the bill to you usual banking house with the agreed-upon markup.

Of course if your account is with an unknown banking house (or one which is known for wrongdoings or faltering fortune), odds are they won't accept unless the rogue trader is offering heavy guarantees - things like 'if they don't pay back you'll get the chart for this trade route I own as compensation'

Polaria said:

We actually know for a fact that there are noble houses operating banks in the Calixis Sector region - House Krin, described in the Dark Heresy rulebook, are the most prominent and successful of these...

The Empire of Man is a feudal world, and Rogue Traders are a special class of nobility. For such people, actual coin holds little meaning, as they measure their wealth in estates, prized possessions, human resources and various favors and alliances they can call upon. It's also about your fame and repute. Upon reaching a certain level of demand, no amount of currency alone can give you what you need. Actually coughing up the money to buy a new interstellar cruiser is something even Lord Sector Hax can't do, and that's assuming the Machine Cult would name the price in Thrones in the first place. At this level, you need a mixture of political backing, favors, long term deals and overall financial fluidity that a cargo hold full of coins doesn't provide.

That said, I'm certain most Rogue Traders to have something akin to treasure vault on their ships, for those unique valuable things they find and some coin for small bribes, tips and what have you, but it's generally not going to be representative of the scale of wealth the Rogue Trader possesses, and any Rogue Trader boasting nothing but what the cargo bays of his ship hold is down on his luck indeed.

After a a few months of repairs on Footfall and some disasterous attempts to sell some exotic beasts for quick cash my players have decided to keep a large physical fund on hand to protect them from any future circumstances that might threaten to lower them to the level of common businessmen.

Snidesworth said:

Well, good luck with that, and hope the Administratum won't take their tampering with the coin too personally.

I'd imagine that rogue traders have access to a great deal of hard currency, stored in various banking establishments, merchant costers and factors strongrooms. They also probably have a vault on their ship full of readily tradable stuff such as coinage, art, gems, etc.

All this however would be only a fraction of a Rogue Traders wealth. The vast majority would be tied up in land, estates, businesses etc. Many of which the Rogue trader is probably on distantly aware of (minions handle most of it).

It would be all but impossible to buy something like a starship with coin. The amount it would require would annihilate any economy you try and use it in. Instead a rogue trader might trade a series of profitable manufactories in Hive Sibellus on Scintilla, a country estate on Lacusta, trading rights along three trade routes in the malfian sub sector and the moon of Samson III with its valuable mineral deposits and small mining operation. That kind of thing.

In addition, all this is only part of a rogue traders profit factor. the rest consists of favours owed, friends in high places, blackmail of certain officials, etc. So in the case above of buying a ship, maybe the RT is also using blackmail on the owner of the valuator that assesses the value of the vessel he is selling to push up its worth, while also using his friendship with the liege of footfall to get the sellers docking fee tabs called in and cashing in a few favours to get the sellers gambling debts called in, creating a demand for ready cash to pay his debts.

In many cases PF can measure sheer fame and awesomeness. Rogue traders are entitled to demand rather a lot of free stuff by their warrants but actually enforcing this right becomes a lot more likely when you are famed across the entire segmentum as a ruthless adventurer, conqueror of worlds and general badass.

example. A rogue trader visits a borderline imperial world in the expanse and demands free resupply and crew to replenish losses from the planets governor. Who gets the free stuff more easily, someone like Kobras Acquaire, or a relatively unknown guy whos family have mostly been doing trade runs and mining ops for the last millenia? Kobras Acquaire of course.

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

Incidentally, this is also a good reason to keep your treasuries full of actual coin and other items of wealth. A storage room filled with gold, jewels and rare artifacts is a much better story fodder than a scroll listing your possessions and endeavors.

Hmmm . . . how well would a "macro-currency" work? By this I mean hard money, but with denominations in the million+ range.Obviously, these would be extraordinarily rare and likely restricted to major trading cartels, but as conducting interstellar finance transactions via astropath is inefficient and unreliable, this may well be the next best thing. No idea who would be the issuing authority, though. Perhaps the High Lords of Terra?

It should be noted that trying to counterfeit such a currency would likely merit a fate worse than death . . .

-Kirov

Note: the idea of a macro-currency isn't mine. Actually, the merchant castes of the Clans used such a currency in addition to wire transfers in the Battletech universe.

In a lot of more primitive places, a Throne is litteraly worth its wight in gold. (eg, its a gold coin). In those cases, you just start stocking gold bars instead of loose coins. Above that, a Macrocurrancy is only as good as people honoring it, making it akin to bank transfers or other large instatutional exchanges. It might work Hive-world to Hive-world, but in areas where you need hard currancy, it's unlikely to be much more useful then a credit card.

Of course, suddenly showing up on a random planet with a million Thrones in gold to spend may have truly apocalyptic effects on the world's economy. A mutual exchange of goods and services is much safer in such circumstances.

I find this thread to be facinating, as much because of the ideas that are different than my own as much as those that I agree with.

I use PF as a combination of holdings, raw valuables, Favors owed, Reputation, and contracts for goods/services. Note that a failed aquisition may not allways indicate a lack of resources, just a lack of the resources that the seller wants. If your seller wants only gemstones of great value, and you have recently spent those out on other things it may take some time to obtain more. Sellers may be more limited in the mediums of exchange they can accept, or just unwilling to go through the effort required to deal with what the RT has available. There is always the possibility that the purchase fell through because of your reputation or some other bias.

Holdings include real property and businesses the players own. My group owns a number munitiatoriums and mining operations inside the Calaxis Sector that make up some of their initial PF. They have added promethium refineries, salvage operations, archeotech mining facilities and ships to this PF as they have played. I keep a log of their endeavors and the PF they provide, as well as the PF 'value' of thier ships, so that I can estimate the loss should those properties be sold/lost.

Raw Valuables include liquid currencies (those used on the major worlds they trade with), Precious Metals, gems, art, archeotech and xeno trinkets, spices and other luxury goods, and raw rare materials. My players have a major brewery on their ship (Component with 1 power and 1 space), they often trade its output as well (This is covered by their PF, and is mostly flavor text). Also of note, the players keep a stockpile of unusual items that they use as bribes or as trade. If they kill a raiding party of Dark Eldar, they loot the bodies and set aside those items that they aren't going to use or hand over to the inquisition (for particularly vile objects) as possible trade for other RTs and the Cold Trade brokers. I use a slightly modified version of the Black Crusade trade rules to handle such transactions.

Favors are often traded at the highest levels of Imperial society. These can be verbal (usually for those they deal with often) or made with a small note and a genestamp to 'remind' the party of their promise. When you start dealing with planetary govenors or senior adeptas, these can be worth mountains of coin.

Reputation will often get a man things that coin will not. Need astropaths to replace those assigned to your colony? A RT renowned for his defence of an Imperial world who travels with a famous and well liked Transubstantial Initiate can have replacements assigned with very little coin passing hands. His need for them to continue his good works in the Emperor's name trumps some untrustworthy RTs own coin. Some things can not be purchased for any cost. You aren't going to get the Ecclesiastiary to let you take holy relics (which happen to be sacred weapons, useful in fighting daemon incursions) for any ammount of coin. While you might try bribes or hiring theives to steal it, a pious Missionary can probably justify to his superiors his need much easier.

Contracts for goods and services to be rendered in the future play off you reputation, but represent real goods. Often these are for transport of goods or for goods themselves. If you are well known for your trade stations in central areas of the Expanse, a contract to allow refueling and provisioning at those stations can be worth a great deal. This includes letters of credit issued by major trade houses. They are extremely difficult to forge, and often include arcane genemarks or encrypted data hidden in the wax seals. Anyone who manages to forge one may get away with it, but may find bountyhunters and assassins dogging his steps and his own holdings seized.