I am wondering if a ship base that, at closest point, is outside my firing arc at range 1, but part of the base is within my firing arc at range 2. Since the card reads "you may perform cannon secondary weapon attacks against ships outside of your firing arc." Does the word "may" mean that I can choose to fire at range 2 inside my firing arc?

No, because range is based on closest point to closest point. So if any part of a ship's base is in range 1, then the ship is at range 1.

When determining if a ship is or isn't in arc then it gets a bit more complex.

"May" in the Outrider text means that you don't have to attack ships outside your firing arc--you can still attack them if they're in your arc.

But as VanorDM says, there's only one way to measure range to a given target; you can't choose to use the most convenient range measurement.

So if I am firing at a ship through a normal printed firing arc. I would measure the range based on the closest point even if that closest point is outside of the firing arc?

I would measure the range based on the closest point even if that closest point is outside of the firing arc?

You can't measure outside the printed arc, unless you have a turret weapon. So for ships that can only fire in their arc, you measure to the closest point inside the printed arc.

If you're using a turret weapon the range is always measured closest point to closest point, and you ignore the printed arc.

So if I am firing at a ship through a normal printed firing arc. I would measure the range based on the closest point even if that closest point is outside of the firing arc?

If you're attacking with (say) an X-wing, then you make two determinations:

(1) Is the ship in my firing arc?

(2) What is my range to the ship?

In that case, you can't attack outside your firing arc, so the answer to question #1 is very important, and you measure to the closest point that's within your arc.

When attacking with the Outrider, you make the same determinations:

(1) Is the ship in my firing arc?

(2) What is the range to the ship?

But the answers to the two questions are no longer linked. The ship is inside your firing arc or not, which may matter to you (if you have Tactician, for example) and may matter to your target (maybe it has Autothrusters)--but it doesn't affect whether or not you can attack. So when you measure range to the ship, you measure to the closest point period, rather than the closest point in your firing arc.

I made this document that explains how checking firing arc and range works (click for full size).

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Edit: Darn it, just found another typo...

Klutz your document was a contributing factor to the discussion we had in our local group. I still find myself interpreting the word "may" to mean that it is an option to fire the canon outside of the firing arc. With turrets it uses the wording "even a ship outside your firing arc" which seems pretty cut an dry.

Klutz your document was a contributing factor to the discussion we had in our local group. I still find myself interpreting the word "may" to mean that it is an option to fire the canon outside of the firing arc. With turrets it uses the wording "even a ship outside your firing arc" which seems pretty cut an dry.

The word may in that case should be read as "can". There is no choice involved.

Example:

I have an injured Wedge in arc, at range 1 of my Mangler-Outrider. I even have a TL on him and a Focus token!

I obviously want to blow the crap out of his X-Wing.

Unfortunately, Biggs is at range one of Wedge, outside of my firing arc at range 2.

I cannot decide to ignore the "may [...] outside of your firing arc", therefore being unable to fire at Biggs, and kill Wedge. I am obliged to fire at Biggs.

That isn't the best example as Biggs reads "Other friendly ships at range 1 cannot be targeted by attacks if the attacker could target you instead" the use of the word "could" implies possibility, which would mean that Outrider title gives you that possibility and you therefore have to target Biggs.

I get that.

That isn't the best example as Biggs reads "Other friendly ships at range 1 cannot be targeted by attacks if the attacker could target you instead" the use of the word "could" implies possibility, which would mean that Outrider title gives you that possibility and you therefore have to target Biggs.

I get that.

Yeah, I guess that was a poor example...

But you get my point

Are you saying my interpretation of the word "may" should be read as "can" or are you saying that the card should have replaced the word "may" with "can" to fit the turret range rule?

I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I look at it this way. ACD reads "After you perform an attack, you may perform a free cloak action." the word "may" used here means that it is your option to perform the cloak action and that the cloak action does not automatically happen.

I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I look at it this way. ACD reads "After you perform an attack, you may perform a free cloak action." the word "may" used here means that it is your option to perform the cloak action and that the cloak action does not automatically happen.

Yes, generally "may" does indicate a choice.

Not so for the Outrider title.

I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I look at it this way. ACD reads "After you perform an attack, you may perform a free cloak action." the word "may" used here means that it is your option to perform the cloak action and that the cloak action does not automatically happen.

Yes, generally "may" does indicate a choice.

Not so for the Outrider title.

But it IS a choice. Without the outrider, you are limited to targets within your firing arc. With it, you may now attack ships outside your firing arc. But, they don't HAVE to be outside your arc.

The complete text:

" While you have a Upgrade card equipped, you cannot perform primary weapon attacks and you may perform secondary weapon attacks against ships outside your firing arc."

I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I look at it this way. ACD reads "After you perform an attack, you may perform a free cloak action." the word "may" used here means that it is your option to perform the cloak action and that the cloak action does not automatically happen.

Yes, generally "may" does indicate a choice.

Not so for the Outrider title.

FFG seems like far too tight of a company to have a double standard for the word "may".

In my e-mail response thread I asked frank specifically about this issue. I have been trying to copy/paste it into this thread but my work parameters aren't allowing me to do it.

Search for "Response thread", that I put up back in October of last year.

The FAQ has this litle bit of information hidden under the entry for Tactician:

Ships attacking with turret weapons must measure from closest point to closest point when determining range.

Now the Outrider doesn't explicitly tell you to treat your cannon upgrade as a "turret", but it uses the same wording as turret weapons (compare with ion cannon turret f.ex.). So it seems safe to assume that the same rules apply to outrider.

So you MAY target a ship if it is outside your arc, but you don't have to, you can still target a ship inside the arc. What ever target you pick though, range is meassured closest point to closest point, regardles of arc.

So the may referes to target selection, not range measurement.

The rules are quite clear on how you determine range. If you are using a weapon that is limited to the printed arc then you check closest point to closest point within the arc.

In this case if the ship is turned such a way that part of it is outside your arc, but is closer than the part that is inside your arc, it doesn't matter.

If you are using a turret weapon or more accurately a weapon that can fire outside the printed arc, then you check closest point to closest point.

Using the Outrider card is not optional, because the card itself says you cannot use the primary weapon, you can only use the secondary weapon to attack, and it can fire outside it's arc. So all rules for attacks for weapons like that apply.

You never have the option of using your primary or treating your secondary weapon as if it were limited to the printed arc.

The FAQ has this litle bit of information hidden under the entry for Tactician:

Ships attacking with turret weapons must measure from closest point to closest point when determining range.

Now the Outrider doesn't explicitly tell you to treat your cannon upgrade as a "turret", but it uses the same wording as turret weapons (compare with ion cannon turret f.ex.). So it seems safe to assume that the same rules apply to outrider.

So you MAY target a ship if it is outside your arc, but you don't have to, you can still target a ship inside the arc. What ever target you pick though, range is meassured closest point to closest point, regardles of arc.

So the may referes to target selection, not range measurement.

The Outrider title does not use the same wording as the turrets, that's why I ask the question. Turrets say "Attack: Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc)" outrider says "while you have a Cannon upgrade card equipped, you cannot perform primary weapon attacks and you may perform cannon secondary weapon attacks against ships outside of your firing arc."

I put the question to FFG and received the following response "When you have the Outrider title equipped, you may perform cannon attacks inside or outside your firing arc." So it seems like you can do one OR the other.

If you can find a post or a ruling, from FFG, that says the Outrider title turns Cannons into Turrets I will accept the turret ruling for finding range, but without that or with out further explanation from FFG I would have to assume that you can choose whether to fire at a ship inside or outside the firing arc. Look at it this way. I cannot shoot HLC at range 1 so I cannot shoot at the ship with that cannon outside of the firing arc, but if it's base is in the Firing arc at range 2 I can fire at it because HLC fires at range 2-3.

The FAQ has this litle bit of information hidden under the entry for Tactician:

Ships attacking with turret weapons must measure from closest point to closest point when determining range.

Now the Outrider doesn't explicitly tell you to treat your cannon upgrade as a "turret", but it uses the same wording as turret weapons (compare with ion cannon turret f.ex.). So it seems safe to assume that the same rules apply to outrider.

So you MAY target a ship if it is outside your arc, but you don't have to, you can still target a ship inside the arc. What ever target you pick though, range is meassured closest point to closest point, regardles of arc.

So the may referes to target selection, not range measurement.

The Outrider title does not use the same wording as the turrets, that's why I ask the question. Turrets say "Attack: Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc)" outrider says "while you have a Cannon upgrade card equipped, you cannot perform primary weapon attacks and you may perform cannon secondary weapon attacks against ships outside of your firing arc."

I put the question to FFG and received the following response "When you have the Outrider title equipped, you may perform cannon attacks inside or outside your firing arc." So it seems like you can do one OR the other.

If you can find a post or a ruling, from FFG, that says the Outrider title turns Cannons into Turrets I will accept the turret ruling for finding range, but without that or with out further explanation from FFG I would have to assume that you can choose whether to fire at a ship inside or outside the firing arc. Look at it this way. I cannot shoot HLC at range 1 so I cannot shoot at the ship with that cannon outside of the firing arc, but if it's base is in the Firing arc at range 2 then I can fire at it because HLC fires at range 2-3.

Hello,

The question is regarding the Outrider title for the YT-2400.

There is a FAQ entry concerning range measurement with a turret that states the following:

"When attacking with a turret weapon (including a 360-degree primary turret), range is always measured from the closest point to the closest point."

Does this ruling also apply to a YT-2400 equipped with the Outrider title?

Hi Kevin,

Yes, it does. A YT-2400 with the Outrider title and a cannon equipped is considered to have a turret weapon for the purposes of measurement and must measure closest point to closest point.

Cheers,

Alex Davy

Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

Alright I got some clarification from FFG.

Outrider title follows the turret rules.

Thank you for all your input.

Hello Sergovan,

In response to your rules question:

Rule Question:

Turreted ships have the "may" clause when it comes to their ability. For card abilities that require an in-arc check, could the player choose to not fire outside of his firing arc and follow all the rules that pertain to a normal firing arc shot?

No. This is due to a common confusion around the use of “may.” In the core rules of X-Wing, sometimes the word “may” is used instead of the more clear “can” which usually function the same, but are subtly different. “Can” means roughly “you have the capacity to do so” while “may” means more like “you have the choice to do so.” In this case, both work, but “may” seems to imply that there is something you can gain by choosing to not target a ship not inside your firing arc; this is not the case.

The relevant part of the rules is specifically:

“When attacking with a turret primary weapon, a ship may target an enemy ship inside or outside its firing arc.”

This does not actually say that you can choose to fire inside or outside of your firing arc, but specifically that the target of your attack can exist either inside or outside of your firing arc. When measuring range, it is measured from closest point to closest point (more specifically on pg 10 of the core rulebook):

“To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the range ruler so that it touches the closest part of the attacker’s base. Then point the rulers towards the closest part of the target ship’s base that is inside the attacker’s firing arc."

These rules were written specifically for ships that can only target ships that are inside of the their firing arc (which is most ships). In order for Ion Cannon Turret, Blaster Turret, and turret primary weapons to function as intended, the last part of the phrase “closest part of the target ship’s base that is inside the attacker’s firing arc” must be ignored, otherwise a ship with a turret weapon could not actual attack a ship outside of its firing arc.

So, instead of these effects not working, merely whenever a ship attacks with a turret weapon, it is always measured from closest point to closest point. Whether a ship is inside of your arc (or not), is simply a property that can be checked as needed.

Thanks for asking!

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

For further clarification.

I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I look at it this way. ACD reads "After you perform an attack, you may perform a free cloak action." the word "may" used here means that it is your option to perform the cloak action and that the cloak action does not automatically happen.

Yes, generally "may" does indicate a choice.

Not so for the Outrider title.

FFG seems like far too tight of a company to have a double standard for the word "may".

BWAAAHAAAAHAAAA HAAAAAAA!

<ahem> Sorry. Please carry on.