You also have to consider that with the mats, some places get them from their distribution group. That group will raise prices above msrp so that they can get a cut.

Back on topic. I buy from the two main FLGS's here in Portland OR. I love the shops and those that work there. The only time I consider going online is if they don't have something in stock or can't order it. Now mind you one of these stores is IMMENSE, we are talking huge area for well over 40 white folding tables that LGS's love using, and they still have a backroom for those of us that are 21 and older (meaning beer and cider). The only time they charge for a space that I know of is if you are reserving such a space. Other than that, I have walked in, asked of they had am open area and in 5 minutes had a table ready to go.

They prioritized customer service and customer care over everything. That makes me want to buy from them. Well that and they have a section that artists like myself (i make chain maille jewelry and such) can sell things.

Now some things they don't sell, Secret Weapon Miniature washes, bitz, eta. Those are acquired online.

Portland is awesome. If I didn't live here I'd live there. Or the great state of colorado.

This leaves people with the following good responses:

• Purchase at online stores and do not play at FLGS
• Purchase at FLGS and play at FLGS
• Purchase at FLGS and play elsewhere (somewhat odd, but not wrong...still supporting community business)

Poor responses:

• Purchase at online store and play at FLGS

I can see what you are saying but I don't believe it is as clear cut as play always equals pay as you seem to suggest

I know analogies/metaphors aren't perfect but sometimes that is the only way one can convey their experience and point of view. Please bear with me as I try to convey my thoughts below with a story.

Recently a local non-franchise restaurant opened practically next door to my house. Me and my wife were excited, we love food and find the area obsession with generic franchise food unappetizing at times. We had the highest hopes for this place so as soon as it opened we were one of the first patrons through the door. To say the experience was disappointing would be a gross understatement. The flavor of the food was mediocre at best, the portions small and the price outrageous (we paid over $50 dollars for what was basically a burger and fries). We gave a 2 star review on Yelp, tried to give constructive criticism and planned to check in every once in awhile to see if there has any improvement as we want nothing more than to have a great restaurant within walking distance of where we lived. As we tracked the reviews over Yelp (most were 2 to 3 stars) we would notice the occasional 5 star, upon further investigation we found that the accounts were brand new and only had that restaurant reviewed, they were posting false reviews to get business. Instead of improving food and service they resort to gimmicks, false advertising and even raised prices on food to try and compensate for low attendance.

You are probably wondering where I am going with this? In the case of the restaurant the solution is simple, don't go back. My argument is that with LGSs, it isn't that simple. I would say for the average player of a game like Armada, to get the most of their (substantial) investment in the game, they have to attend the store where people who play the game. I don't see why I should have to pay exorbitant amount of money (according to some people buying a snack is not enough) to play in a store. Why should anyone have to pay $149 (price of an Armada core set at some stores here) to play it at their store and then continue paying more every week to continue to play there? When does it stop? I realize not all stores are guilty of this and it is an extreme example but this is where I see things going. They use your premise of "play always equals pay" as an excuse to not compete, to not adapt and in the end that is their downfall to the benefit of none.

That is my point of view, I don't expect anyone to adopt it but hope it broadens your view. Again thank you if you followed me on this.

I am very lucky to live in San Diego (weather and real Mexican food everywhere) as we have 4+ large gaming stores in town.

Because we are a large military town as well, they all offer 10% discounts to active (and sometimes retired, as I am) Military.

My personal policy is to buy some things from the local stores. By doing so I'm not only supporting local businesses but also my state (taxes).

I will make large purchases online as a savings of $30-$50 is just too good to pass up. But I also hate waiting, so LGS often get my business on release day.

For Armada, I bought my first Core set from my FLGS and the second one online.

I'm happy to have 2 Core sets, and my LGS is happy to see me playing in store and also making purchases.

I played in a 40k league at a GW store last year and their buy in policy was to spend $25 at the store for the league. I think this is a great idea! The store gets some sales, and you get something new!

My FGS also offers 10% discount on any game that day that has an event. Thursday is our X-Wing/Armada night, so on Thursdays all X-Wing and Armada items are 10% off.

Get's people in the store on a specific day, and sometimes a new players to our group.

They use your premise of "play always equals pay" as an excuse to not compete, to not adapt and in the end that is their downfall to the benefit of none.

I think that's why you have to look at it from a stance of "what is the services that the LGS offers worth to you?"

In some cases the only service they may offer is that they sell the product there. This isn't really worth much if anything.

In some cases they'll offer a table for you to play on, this is worth $X per time you play there.

In some cases they'll offer a table, with a nice mat, terrain, ect.. That's worth $Y per time you play there.

In some cases they'll offer all that plus even more like leagues and tournaments, that all being worth $Z per time.

But maybe they charge $5 a day for tables, or $5 for using their terrain. Maybe they charge $2.50 a can for pop. All that is going to reduce X, Y or Z by that amount.

So it's up to each person to figure out what the services a LGS offers, and how much that is worth to them and do their best to at least pay that amount.

However the other point you bring up is good. As customers I think it's up to us to make sure that a business gives us the best deal they can. We don't owe the LGS anything really, it's not like these games would of never existed without them. And as such I think we should make sure the Good stores are rewarded for what they do, and the bad ones at least know what they're doing wrong.

It does the community a disservice to reward a LGS that is poorly run. Better for the community for that store to close so one that will be run better opens.

I think a lot of our differences will come from a few factors,

1. Regional gaming economy.

Beatty, Lyraeus, and myself (Portlanders) are pretty blessed. We even have a side conversation happening on our Armada FB group right now, which is reflecting on this discussion. That discussion probably has about as many participants as this thread does. Our mid-size city (ans suburbs) is supporting quite a few stores, and these stores are all selling at MSRP (or rounding up a penny). You don't have to pay to play. Customer service is good-to-great. So, these stores have to compete, but are not having to be cut-throat about it. Another benefit is that Oregon does not have a sales tax, so our FLGSs does not have that unfair comparative disadvantage compared to the online retailers.

2. Regional gaming culture

Let's face it, some parts of the country have stronger norms of broader community support than others do. Some people are taught to believe you should always buy for the cheapest price and take advantage of FLGS gaming tables without embarrassment, unless the store owners are friends or family. Also, some areas have different points of view about gamers in general. The greater the public disapproval of gamers, the more likely gamers are going to fit the stereotype of being young, poor, less hygienic, male, socially inept, virgin, etc. That will keep away a broader customer base on which the LGS can draw for revenue. Or the store has to diversify and keep the social deviants out by not specializing in True Gamer games.

3. Personal Economic Circumstance

I hear what Bubbles is saying. People should not be embarrassed if they contribute with activity rather than money, especially if they're having to watch their wallets, the way that so many people do. As long as this part of the community is not fitting the stereotype (above), and is actually getting more people into the game, I'm sure the store doesn't mind having them around. Just the other day I saw a guy (and his wife) looking at a couple of boxes of X-Wing. I chatted them up ("Hey, are you getting into X-Wing?") and later that night he was signed up to the FB group, and will hopefully be coming out to play with us. Also, he bought three times the amount of stuff that he had been planning to do.

The same goes for the guy who helped me get into the fold when I was starting X-Wing. He is a regular at one of my FLGSs, but doesn't typically have a lot of spare cash to spend. Nevertheless, he showed me the ropes, made me feel welcome, and I've been a loyal customer at that store ever since.

The flgs is providing the game space for several reasons (maybe the owner is a gamer and likes having the space, he wants to generate more sales, etc). Those reasons however are part of their sales attempt to get you, the customer, to buy something.

Unless the game shop states explicitly that you have to pay to play, then that game shop is assuming a risk. That risk is a part of doing business. The risk in this case is providing free gaming space in order to generate additional revenue. It's no different than when big box stores have these amazing sales but only have 10 items in stock. They are taking the risk that getting you in the building will generate other sales even by risking your anger at them not having the product in stock anymore.

The discount is applicable as to why someone should or should not shop at a store. You want to prop up a business that sells items at MSRP because you personally feel that it's helpful to do so. I argue that you are hurting not only yourself but other gamers as well by propping up this type of business model.

Why? Because you are paying more and that shop is driving away potential sales to savvy customers who realize they can get better deals online and still play at the store for free (you disliking or thinking this unethical doesn't change the fact that it happens). Thus causing themselves financial harm due to lost sales and possibly enough harm where they can no longer stay in business.

So do yourself, fellow gamers and the local economy a favor by talking to the shop owner and help them realize through your complaints and lack of purchases that if they don't find a happy medium between online discounts and msrp, they will lose sales.

This is my sentiment too. If you charge more on products because you offer a place to play, this is bad business. Charge the right price for the products and charge something for the place to play, else accept the risk.

I buy online and would not mind to pay something to be allowed to play. But do not charge everybody buying at your place extra "fee", even those not playing at your place, for those who play there.

This is my sentiment too. If you charge more on products because you offer a place to play, this is bad business. Charge the right price for the products and charge something for the place to play, else accept the risk.

I buy online and would not mind to pay something to be allowed to play. But do not charge everybody buying at your place extra "fee", even those not playing at your place, for those who play there.

Ultimately, I do think it pays for the store to factor floorspace and the other facilities into their prices at MSRP. It gives people who are not planning to go out and game an opportunity to see the game being played, so that they can gauge if they'd like the game. Also, they see that other people are having fun with that game.

Also, and this was my experience, I would not have gotten into the gaming community (or bought as much stuff as I've done) if I didn't see that there was a gaming community at these stores. Ultimately, my close friends and families didn't get into it as I did, but because there is a community playing these games at the stores, I did.

For those who have an allergic reaction to anything sounding like 'redistribution', I can see the rationale of where you're coming from, but I do believe that it's a short-sighted rationale. Ultimately, the gaming community is better off with this FLGS model of operation, because more people will get into it at large, and that allows FFG to achieve economies of scale, which makes the product better, and probably cheaper, for everyone.

Ultimately, the gaming community is better off with this FLGS model of operation, because more people will get into it at large...

That's debatable, but I tend to agree. a LGS is going to expose people to games they might not otherwise hear about. Myself I never heard of Flames of War until I saw it at my LGS. I think tabletop games could make it without the LGS model, but would tend to not do as well.

Things like facebook however is closing the gap on that. Before the only way you could meet up with tabletop gamers was at the LGS, now facebook is giving everyone a means to meet new people outside the store.

That all said I think that it's completely fair for a LGS to expect to make a profit on their table space. That having tables in the store will increase their profit margins via more sales. If they don't see an increase in sales after putting in tables, then I think there is a problem.

So I don't mind the idea of paying for that service indirectly. But I don't believe I owe the LGS an infinite amount for that service. By infinite I mean that I must spend 100% of my gaming money at that store, just because they offer a place to play.

Making up numbers here... Let's say that the table space is worth $10/session, and I play at the LGS twice a month. That means I 'owe' the store $20. So I should buy $60 worth of stuff a month there. I'm basing that on $60 MSRP = $40 online so I've paid an extra $20.

So lets say I buy $120 worth of stuff at once, that pays for 2 months of gaming.

That's again just made up numbers for the sake of an example, because how much that space is worth is going to vary from place to place.

Ultimately, the gaming community is better off with this FLGS model of operation, because more people will get into it at large...

That's debatable, but I tend to agree.

[...]

That's again just made up numbers for the sake of an example, because how much that space is worth is going to vary from place to place.

Yes, it will vary tremendously based on a lot of factors. I think us Portlanders live in the sweet spot where that is concerned, because a lot of those factors are very favorable. This is probably why we're so militant about supporting our FLGSs. The benefits (for us as players) are quite good, and the opportunity costs are relatively low. Also, we're in the cultural context where people are very community-minded.

Mikael Hasselstein forgot to mention that as Portlandians we are very "Support Local Businesses"

They use your premise of "play always equals pay" as an excuse to not compete, to not adapt and in the end that is their downfall to the benefit of none.

I think that's why you have to look at it from a stance of "what is the services that the LGS offers worth to you?"In some cases the only service they may offer is that they sell the product there. This isn't really worth much if anything.In some cases they'll offer a table for you to play on, this is worth $X per time you play there.In some cases they'll offer a table, with a nice mat, terrain, ect.. That's worth $Y per time you play there.In some cases they'll offer all that plus even more like leagues and tournaments, that all being worth $Z per time.But maybe they charge $5 a day for tables, or $5 for using their terrain. Maybe they charge $2.50 a can for pop. All that is going to reduce X, Y or Z by that amount.So it's up to each person to figure out what the services a LGS offers, and how much that is worth to them and do their best to at least pay that amount.However the other point you bring up is good. As customers I think it's up to us to make sure that a business gives us the best deal they can. We don't owe the LGS anything really, it's not like these games would of never existed without them. And as such I think we should make sure the Good stores are rewarded for what they do, and the bad ones at least know what they're doing wrong.It does the community a disservice to reward a LGS that is poorly run. Better for the community for that store to close so one that will be run better opens.

I will say also how a store owner treats you may also be dependent on how you treat his staff and his store. I know that some of the stores I am able to get preorder discounts and it is an In The Know thing that the owner does for their good customers. I know Mikael and I were both offered discounts on preorders for Armada from different stores (20% for him 30% for me) but they also know I but there regularly at full MSRP most the time. So for preorders they treat us for being Good customers.

Loyalty earns loyalty. If you walk in and act like the staff are robots that need to cater to you then you won't hear about these deals. That's how some stores handle doing business, treat those who help you with deals.

Mikael Hasselstein forgot to mention that as Portlandians we are very "Support Local Businesses"

In fact I see many of us on here too.

Ultimately, the gaming community is better off with this FLGS model of operation, because more people will get into it at large...

That's debatable, but I tend to agree.

[...]

That's again just made up numbers for the sake of an example, because how much that space is worth is going to vary from place to place.

Yes, it will vary tremendously based on a lot of factors. I think us Portlanders live in the sweet spot where that is concerned, because a lot of those factors are very favorable. This is probably why we're so militant about supporting our FLGSs. The benefits (for us as players) are quite good, and the opportunity costs are relatively low. Also, we're in the cultural context where people are very community-minded.

Fulcrum Lives!

I really like and agree with what Mik had to say about the factors. Very spot on.

Where I am from there were no real game stores, just hobby stores that ocassionally had gaming stuff and one sci-fi comics place. Certainly no table space. My intro to gaming was though "bunker gaming," which is sill the prevalent venue. There have since gotten to be some hobby/comics/game store hybrids, but not many, and even within that, the space for gaming, both table and sales space, is minimal. However, there is a strong convention program in the area. Vendors who come to the conventions get lots of support. At least thats what a vendor friend of mine says.

To help with the statistical analysis, Im 40 and from central Florida.

Mikael Hasselstein forgot to mention that as Portlandians we are very "Support Local Businesses"

I like to support my local businesses, but mostly because they often offer me a service in addition to whatever they are selling me.

***Longish story completely unrelated to Armada***

My lawnmower died last weekend, which was a problem as it was past time to get that done. I could of gone to Walmart and got one, but instead I went to the local hardware store. The prices were about comparable but at Bills Ace Hardware the guy who was helping me (and I didn't have to wait for 15+ minutes for help...) not only brought it in for me, he put some gas in and took it outside and started it. Just to make sure it was working.

To me that kind of service is worth a fair amount. So while it's kinda MSRP vs MSRP, I'd have no issue having paid $10-20 more for the extra service.

I see my FLGS the same way. I can buy cheaper online, but what services am I missing out or will be missing out on if I do that and the store closes?

But that doesn't mean I feel some sort of "moral" need to shop locally... The gas station in town doesn't do anything some other gas station does so I feel no need to stop there just because it's near me. Likewise if a LGS isn't offering much in the way of additional service, then I wouldn't feel a need to buy there as much.

Mikael Hasselstein forgot to mention that as Portlandians we are very "Support Local Businesses"

I like to support my local businesses, but mostly because they often offer me a service in addition to whatever they are selling me.

***Longish story completely unrelated to Armada***

My lawnmower died last weekend, which was a problem as it was past time to get that done. I could of gone to Walmart and got one, but instead I went to the local hardware store. The prices were about comparable but at Bills Ace Hardware the guy who was helping me (and I didn't have to wait for 15+ minutes for help...) not only brought it in for me, he put some gas in and took it outside and started it. Just to make sure it was working.

To me that kind of service is worth a fair amount. So while it's kinda MSRP vs MSRP, I'd have no issue having paid $10-20 more for the extra service.

I see my FLGS the same way. I can buy cheaper online, but what services am I missing out or will be missing out on if I do that and the store closes?

But that doesn't mean I feel some sort of "moral" need to shop locally... The gas station in town doesn't do anything some other gas station does so I feel no need to stop there just because it's near me. Likewise if a LGS isn't offering much in the way of additional service, then I wouldn't feel a need to buy there as much.

Honestly I didn't like the Word Moral attached to this conversation. Going against Morals have more to do with going against strong community norms usually attached to religious beliefs.

This is an Ethical question. And the Question here is "Are You Exploiting A LGS By Playing There Without Buying There?" The difference between Morals and Ethics is more Good Beliefs vs Good Civil Actions.

A good Moral would be "Do not steal" while good Ethics would be "I will not treat others wrongly".

I have thought of this starting with Pokemon back when my kids were little. I have come up with my own method of thinking and purchasing that both helps my pocket book and the local stores.

I purchase one set or in Armada's case one of each ship [ preorder] from an on line store saveing me a ton of money. Then of course thats not enought of what i want to play with squad wise so I buy all my other ships [ BOOSTERS ] from my local store.

Naboobo2000

I really like and agree with what Mik had to say about the factors. Very spot on.

Where I am from there were no real game stores, just hobby stores that ocassionally had gaming stuff and one sci-fi comics place. Certainly no table space. My intro to gaming was though "bunker gaming," which is sill the prevalent venue. There have since gotten to be some hobby/comics/game store hybrids, but not many, and even within that, the space for gaming, both table and sales space, is minimal. However, there is a strong convention program in the area. Vendors who come to the conventions get lots of support. At least thats what a vendor friend of mine says.

To help with the statistical analysis, Im 40 and from central Florida.

So, the question is: what threshold of the above-mentioned factors do you have to surmount in order to make the FLGS model, where people buy and play without a cover charge a self-sustaining one.

It sounds like your locale may not have it. But tell us about this Bunker Gaming. What kind of venue is it?

Honestly I didn't like the Word Moral attached to this conversation. Going against Morals have more to do with going against strong community norms usually attached to religious beliefs.

This is an Ethical question. And the Question here is "Are You Exploiting A LGS By Playing There Without Buying There?" The difference between Morals and Ethics is more Good Beliefs vs Good Civil Actions.

A good Moral would be "Do not steal" while good Ethics would be "I will not treat others wrongly".

Silly rebels, definitions are for Imps.

Ethics = "the study of morals."

Beyond the semantic (because reasonable people can disagree on the meaning of terms), I disagree that what we're talking about is not about community norms. (Let's leave aside a religion debate, because that'll get this thread shut down quite speedily - besides, I suspect that we'd agree on that.) It think it is entirely about community norms. We're talking about solidarity with the gaming store owner, who is not a friend or family, but nevertheless a part of the community. We understand that this solidarity is in our long-term best interest, but we don't calculate a cost-benefit. We simply trust that it is so, plus we feel like we (us players and them game store owners) are part of a community, and we feel norm-bound to support that community, even if it might not be a 100% return-on-investment.

Honestly I didn't like the Word Moral attached to this conversation.

Well I put it in "'s for a reason. But there are people who feel that you should shop locally, because it's the right thing to do. That location and who owns it, is more important then the level of service you get or the cost of what you're buying.

I'm not saying they're wrong, just that they put a different priority into it then I do.

Myself I shop locally because I often get better service then I would at Walmart, and that service is worth what ever the price increase may be. My local supermarket however doesn't offer any sort of real service beyond selling stuff, so I don't feel any need to shop there and pay more, unless I'm willing to pay more for the convenience of not having to drive as far.

The same goes for a LGS. I am willing to pay more at my LGS because of what it offers me, and not just because it's my LGS. Again if someone thinks they should buy at the LGS just because it's local then that's up to them. But they shouldn't be passing judgment on those who don't share that opinion.

Which you do see far to often, people being called names and attacked just because they may not feel the markup at the LGS is worth what it offers them.

We understand that this solidarity is in our long-term best interest

That's rather debatable, depending what the LGS is like. Even if it's decent that doesn't mean we should support it without considering the cost of that support, because supporting a store that is poorly run can mean that a even better store has no chance in that location.

Myself I very much consider the cost-benefit and don't simply trust that the price I'm being charged is is worth the service I'm being provided.

I won't break out a spreadsheet to run the numbers, I'll go with my gut. My gut tells me my LGS is worth a fair amount to me, but it will also tell me when it's ok to get the better deal online on a huge order.

I think we're more or less at the same spot, but don't come from it the same way.

We understand that this solidarity is in our long-term best interest

That's rather debatable, depending what the LGS is like. Even if it's decent that doesn't mean we should support it without considering the cost of that support, because supporting a store that is poorly run can mean that a even better store has no chance in that location.

Myself I very much consider the cost-benefit and don't simply trust that the price I'm being charged is is worth the service I'm being provided.

I won't break out a spreadsheet to run the numbers, I'll go with my gut. My gut tells me my LGS is worth a fair amount to me, but it will also tell me when it's ok to get the better deal online on a huge order.

I think we're more or less at the same spot, but don't come from it the same way.

I see where you're coming from, and I agree with the notion that a poorly run store should not be supported without pressure on that store to improve. Not shopping at a store is the easiest means of pressuring that store, but it may not be the most effective. I'm pretty happy with my stores, so I don't see the need to withhold my business or exert other means of exerting pressure.

But I do disagree with the foundation of your argument. This is where I think that morals/community norms come in.

I take a long view of this and consider 'my benefits' very broadly.

I think it is in my benefit and the broad benefit of the community that gamers be employed at these stores, rather than, say, a gas station or be unemployed. (I mention gas stations, because that's another peculiar Oregon institution, where you're not allowed to pump your own gas. In times of economic downturn it's a form of social insurance - bigger debate, we shouldn't get into it.) They put their passions to work, maintain work skills, and contribute to the local economy.

I also think that it's in my benefit that people have a place to game, rather than go out an engage in more (self)destructive forms of entertainment. My community is more wholesome that way.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. I'm considering my benefits much more holistically than your narrow calculus (even without a spreadsheet) seems to do. While most people may not think it all out the way that I do, I do think that many people internalize this into a norm of being one's brother's keeper. I think it is in their own enlightened best interest, but I don't think most people really feel it that way. They just want to do right by one another.

You're killing me....

Wow.

I don't care about morals, ethics or any other salacious argument.

I will spend the cash I work hard to earn were I please. I will game were I please, regardless of were I acquired the toys I use.

Most of my gaming happens at my home or a friends anyway.

With all that said, I do shop locally whenever feasible, but that has to do more with me knowing both the local FLGS owners for over 15 years.

You're killing me....

Just wait 'till the ISB catches up to you...

Wow.

I don't care about morals, ethics or any other salacious argument.

I will spend the cash I work hard to earn were I please. I will game were I please, regardless of were I acquired the toys I use.

Most of my gaming happens at my home or a friends anyway.

With all that said, I do shop locally whenever feasible, but that has to do more with me knowing both the local FLGS owners for over 15 years.

Whatever gets the job done.

But... I'm curious. Who's been making salacious arguments? I don't think anyone referred to lust or lechery, or Jabba's pet for that matter.