1. Spending 100 bucks on an item I can get for 70 is charity. Just because I get something I like doesn't change it. You can go give to nepal right now on bungie's site and get a tshirt. It's still charity. I don't say this with intent to demean the hard working LGS clerks and owners out there, who definetely provide a valuable service to the community and work hard for their living. But if I'm taking money out of my pocket to help you out, it's charity. If it helps, I do believe in giving to charity.

I guess that you have a rather broad definition of charity/donations that help you feel better about yourself. Since charity is tax deductible, do you declare it on your taxes? Last I checked FLGSs weren't 501©(3)s. Neither are the homeless people you'd give a dollar to, but they don't sell you anything in return.

2. The MSRP that most stores sell at is waaaaaay above cost. He could have cut into his margin a little for the sale if he wanted/thought to. He couls have said something like, "It's gonna cost you 70 plus whatever this guy wants for using his prime acct and you need to wait, I'll give it to you for 80 right now".

The MSRP is above the cost that (s)he pays FFG. But then there's the rent, the wages, the utilities, etc. that also need to come out of that MSRP-cost. Also, there's creating expectations. If (s)he says "I'll sell it to you for $70 now", then that customer is going to pretty much expect a 30% discount on everything, as will everyone in earshot.

I have zero respect for turning consumer awareness into an ethics discussion. There is absolutely nothing unethical about a consumer researching the product and making choices based on the best pricing available. How completely consumed in the bubble of rich white privilege do you have to be to think that some absurd sense of honour and loyalty should come before the consumer's monthly family budget. To suggest that a consumer is being unethical for making intelligent choices to ensure their monthly family budget doesn't break because of a stupid little hobby borders on the sociopathic, in my honest and earnest opinion.

Come on Bubbles, that's reducing the discussion to the absurd. Nobody on the support-your-FLGS side of the discussion here is suggesting that people should be choosing between the FLGS and their child's next meal. We're talking about the choice between the FLGS as the next cup of coffee from Starbucks.

We're also talking about a social norm of supporting the people who give you and us a place to play. Calling us sociopathic for suggesting this sounds rather ironic.

1 part hyperbole, 1 part reality of being a single mom.

I'm not in favour of going to weekly events at a store and never buying things from it.

I'm not in favour of being pressured to buy from LGS despite significantly higher prices on the premise that I've been a naughty girl if I don't do it.

If each of us were to buy 25% of our expansions at the FLGS but actively and aggressively participate in and promote the advertising and growth of your FLGS their sales would increase.

If a person elects to buy 100% at the FLGS but does absolutely nothing to promote the events they attend, brings no one else into the community, and even has a personality that encourages others to avoid the FLGS, then you have a much greater problem and that will ultimately lead to much lower sales.

There is an in between, sure. I know that's what people are going to say - but you shouldn't strive to be medium, you should strive to grande.

In conclusion: buy some but not all of your x-wing or armada or whatever from your FLGS but actively participate in the aggressive expansion of the hobby at your FLGS and the place will get more money than if you were a sack of potatoes but all your money went to them.

I am quite surprised at how many here are so supportive of destroying local markets. MSRP is not a slight to you, nor is it bad business. Both e-stores and FLGS attempt offer you something different for your purchase. e-store effectively gives you cash back. FLGS gives you a personal experience, immediate purchase (often), and a place to play. To me, the latter is well worth pay 25%-33% more. Additionally, I stimulate the LOCAL economy and give local businesses power in the community. All good things.

The problem then is those of you who play at a store and don't shop there (some could say exclusively if you play there exclusively). The only thing that someone can say the FLGS is doing wrong is allowing you to come and play.

Seeing as most of the people in this discussion seem to be in their 30-40s, how about a different RL question that most likely has come up in the past decade or two:

When you go to buy a car (once you have decided on your model/brand and desired features) do you look for the best price (or the person who throws in the most extras) at various dealerships, or do you just go to the closest FLCD (Friendly Local Car Dealer) and just pay the MSRP on that car?

Or how about another one:

When you buy an appliance (dishwasher, fridge, oven, etc), assuming it isn't an emergency situation where you NEED IT NOW, do you wait for a 4th of July/Memorial Day/Labor Day sale? Or do you just march in to your local Sears and drop full MSRP $ on it?

I know I tend to look for the best price (from a reputable dealer). There is often a convenience factor, so I may be more willing to pay a few extra $ to stay local - especially if the product is something I can haul myself.

Now, even though the price point is a different range, this is essentially the same thing a number of people are saying. It is hard to justify spending MSRP when you can get 30% off MSRP delivered right to your door. Over the course of a year or so, you have likely spent as much on the hobby as you did on that appliance. So overall it is a sizeable chunk of $$.

If the LGS was to offer some competitive pricing (even 10-15% would be enough for many) or incentives, then I think there would be less 'defection' to online shopping.

No, completely different situation. It would be the same as me buying a washer for 30% off somewhere and then expecting sears to come and do maintanance for free. The FLGS is where you play. If you don't play there, then I am all about buying online. However, if you play at an FLGS, then you should purchase there.

Your last statement may be true, but it isn't what this discussion is about. We are looking at if we SHOULD shop FLGS or not. Not what discount they could offer to keep their customers.

Two real world examples of why retailers are difficult to support.

When a retailer raises the prices of the FFG official playmats $10 above the MRSP then it's time to order online. That's exactly what happened to me. I called to confirm they had it in stock and was willing to pay full retail. Never thought to check the price since it should be $39.95. I'm in. I get there and it marked for $50. I ask if they have it priced wrong and the person at the counter says it's correct since they have higher expenses than online. Left the store with my son disappointed and empty handed. Came home and ordered it online for $32 shipped free and delivered to my door in two days.

I'm looking for other products and all the retailers I call in the area don't have it in stock. They offer to special order it for me but online it's in stock and I can get it fast and free shipping. Why bother calling them anymore? They never have anything in stock.

1. Spending 100 bucks on an item I can get for 70 is charity. Just because I get something I like doesn't change it. You can go give to nepal right now on bungie's site and get a tshirt. It's still charity. I don't say this with intent to demean the hard working LGS clerks and owners out there, who definetely provide a valuable service to the community and work hard for their living. But if I'm taking money out of my pocket to help you out, it's charity. If it helps, I do believe in giving to charity.

I guess that you have a rather broad definition of charity/donations that help you feel better about yourself. Since charity is tax deductible, do you declare it on your taxes? Last I checked FLGSs weren't 501©(3)s. Neither are the homeless people you'd give a dollar to, but they don't sell you anything in return.

2. The MSRP that most stores sell at is waaaaaay above cost. He could have cut into his margin a little for the sale if he wanted/thought to. He couls have said something like, "It's gonna cost you 70 plus whatever this guy wants for using his prime acct and you need to wait, I'll give it to you for 80 right now".

The MSRP is above the cost that (s)he pays FFG. But then there's the rent, the wages, the utilities, etc. that also need to come out of that MSRP-cost. Also, there's creating expectations. If (s)he says "I'll sell it to you for $70 now", then that customer is going to pretty much expect a 30% discount on everything, as will everyone in earshot.

I have zero respect for turning consumer awareness into an ethics discussion. There is absolutely nothing unethical about a consumer researching the product and making choices based on the best pricing available. How completely consumed in the bubble of rich white privilege do you have to be to think that some absurd sense of honour and loyalty should come before the consumer's monthly family budget. To suggest that a consumer is being unethical for making intelligent choices to ensure their monthly family budget doesn't break because of a stupid little hobby borders on the sociopathic, in my honest and earnest opinion.

Come on Bubbles, that's reducing the discussion to the absurd. Nobody on the support-your-FLGS side of the discussion here is suggesting that people should be choosing between the FLGS and their child's next meal. We're talking about the choice between the FLGS as the next cup of coffee from Starbucks.

We're also talking about a social norm of supporting the people who give you and us a place to play. Calling us sociopathic for suggesting this sounds rather ironic.

1 part hyperbole, 1 part reality of being a single mom.

I'm not in favour of going to weekly events at a store and never buying things from it.

I'm not in favour of being pressured to buy from LGS despite significantly higher prices on the premise that I've been a naughty girl if I don't do it.

If each of us were to buy 25% of our expansions at the FLGS but actively and aggressively participate in and promote the advertising and growth of your FLGS their sales would increase.

If a person elects to buy 100% at the FLGS but does absolutely nothing to promote the events they attend, brings no one else into the community, and even has a personality that encourages others to avoid the FLGS, then you have a much greater problem and that will ultimately lead to much lower sales.

There is an in between, sure. I know that's what people are going to say - but you shouldn't strive to be medium, you should strive to grande.

In conclusion: buy some but not all of your x-wing or armada or whatever from your FLGS but actively participate in the aggressive expansion of the hobby at your FLGS and the place will get more money than if you were a sack of potatoes but all your money went to them.

Why not both? Why not contribute 100% to FLGS and promote it?

See, you gave a false dichotomy.

Also, these games are a luxury item. If I can only purchase 1 a year because of prices, I should purchase only 1 a year. There is NEVER a choice of buy at FLGS or child's meal. Another false dichotomy.

In general what we are really talking about is the ability to purchase 4 ships instead of 3. Just purchase 3 at the FLGS and wait until later for that next one.

Two real world examples of why retailers are difficult to support.

When a retailer raises the prices of the FFG official playmats $10 above the MRSP then it's time to order online. That's exactly what happened to me. I called to confirm they had it in stock and was willing to pay full retail. Never thought to check the price since it should be $39.95. I'm in. I get there and it marked for $50. I ask if they have it priced wrong and the person at the counter says it's correct since they have higher expenses than online. Left the store with my son disappointed and empty handed. Came home and ordered it online for $32 shipped free and delivered to my door in two days.

I'm looking for other products and all the retailers I call in the area don't have it in stock. They offer to special order it for me but online it's in stock and I can get it fast and free shipping. Why bother calling them anymore? They never have anything in stock.

That is because on the FFG official playmats FFG sells them to retailers at MSRP. To make a profit they have to add to MSRP. So who is the real problem there? FFG or FLGS?

Finally, they would have more in stock if they didn't lose money to the estores. Just saying, it is a circle.

On the playmats, I am fine with purchasing online because of the above MSRP price (although as I said I think this is FFG being the problem).

Edit: I was incorrect, it is VERY SLIGHTLY below MSRP that the stores get the mats.

1. Spending 100 bucks on an item I can get for 70 is charity. Just because I get something I like doesn't change it. You can go give to nepal right now on bungie's site and get a tshirt. It's still charity. I don't say this with intent to demean the hard working LGS clerks and owners out there, who definetely provide a valuable service to the community and work hard for their living. But if I'm taking money out of my pocket to help you out, it's charity. If it helps, I do believe in giving to charity.

I guess that you have a rather broad definition of charity/donations that help you feel better about yourself. Since charity is tax deductible, do you declare it on your taxes? Last I checked FLGSs weren't 501©(3)s. Neither are the homeless people you'd give a dollar to, but they don't sell you anything in return.

2. The MSRP that most stores sell at is waaaaaay above cost. He could have cut into his margin a little for the sale if he wanted/thought to. He couls have said something like, "It's gonna cost you 70 plus whatever this guy wants for using his prime acct and you need to wait, I'll give it to you for 80 right now".

The MSRP is above the cost that (s)he pays FFG. But then there's the rent, the wages, the utilities, etc. that also need to come out of that MSRP-cost. Also, there's creating expectations. If (s)he says "I'll sell it to you for $70 now", then that customer is going to pretty much expect a 30% discount on everything, as will everyone in earshot.

I have zero respect for turning consumer awareness into an ethics discussion. There is absolutely nothing unethical about a consumer researching the product and making choices based on the best pricing available. How completely consumed in the bubble of rich white privilege do you have to be to think that some absurd sense of honour and loyalty should come before the consumer's monthly family budget. To suggest that a consumer is being unethical for making intelligent choices to ensure their monthly family budget doesn't break because of a stupid little hobby borders on the sociopathic, in my honest and earnest opinion.

Come on Bubbles, that's reducing the discussion to the absurd. Nobody on the support-your-FLGS side of the discussion here is suggesting that people should be choosing between the FLGS and their child's next meal. We're talking about the choice between the FLGS as the next cup of coffee from Starbucks.

We're also talking about a social norm of supporting the people who give you and us a place to play. Calling us sociopathic for suggesting this sounds rather ironic.

1 part hyperbole, 1 part reality of being a single mom.

I'm not in favour of going to weekly events at a store and never buying things from it.

I'm not in favour of being pressured to buy from LGS despite significantly higher prices on the premise that I've been a naughty girl if I don't do it.

If each of us were to buy 25% of our expansions at the FLGS but actively and aggressively participate in and promote the advertising and growth of your FLGS their sales would increase.

If a person elects to buy 100% at the FLGS but does absolutely nothing to promote the events they attend, brings no one else into the community, and even has a personality that encourages others to avoid the FLGS, then you have a much greater problem and that will ultimately lead to much lower sales.

There is an in between, sure. I know that's what people are going to say - but you shouldn't strive to be medium, you should strive to grande.

In conclusion: buy some but not all of your x-wing or armada or whatever from your FLGS but actively participate in the aggressive expansion of the hobby at your FLGS and the place will get more money than if you were a sack of potatoes but all your money went to them.

Why not both? Why not contribute 100% to FLGS and promote it?

See, you gave a false dichotomy.

Also, these games are a luxury item. If I can only purchase 1 a year because of prices, I should purchase only 1 a year. There is NEVER a choice of buy at FLGS or child's meal. Another false dichotomy.

In general what we are really talking about is the ability to purchase 4 ships instead of 3. Just purchase 3 at the FLGS and wait until later for that next one.

You ignored most of my message and you don't make any sense. You go ahead and do whatever you want but I'm not engaging you in discussion until you show evidence that you actively promote events at your FLGS. It sounds like you think you're stimulating the local economy just by buying stuff. Haha, maybe, but don't wag your finger at me for doing more than you when you cannot wrap your head around it.

1 part hyperbole, 1 part reality of being a single mom.

I'm not in favour of going to weekly events at a store and never buying things from it.

I'm not in favour of being pressured to buy from LGS despite significantly higher prices on the premise that I've been a naughty girl if I don't do it.

If each of us were to buy 25% of our expansions at the FLGS but actively and aggressively participate in and promote the advertising and growth of your FLGS their sales would increase.

If a person elects to buy 100% at the FLGS but does absolutely nothing to promote the events they attend, brings no one else into the community, and even has a personality that encourages others to avoid the FLGS, then you have a much greater problem and that will ultimately lead to much lower sales.

There is an in between, sure. I know that's what people are going to say - but you shouldn't strive to be medium, you should strive to grande.

In conclusion: buy some but not all of your x-wing or armada or whatever from your FLGS but actively participate in the aggressive expansion of the hobby at your FLGS and the place will get more money than if you were a sack of potatoes but all your money went to them.

Why not both? Why not contribute 100% to FLGS and promote it?

See, you gave a false dichotomy.

Also, these games are a luxury item. If I can only purchase 1 a year because of prices, I should purchase only 1 a year. There is NEVER a choice of buy at FLGS or child's meal. Another false dichotomy.

In general what we are really talking about is the ability to purchase 4 ships instead of 3. Just purchase 3 at the FLGS and wait until later for that next one.

You ignored most of my message and you don't make any sense. You go ahead and do whatever you want but I'm not engaging you in discussion until you show evidence that you actively promote events at your FLGS. It sounds like you think you're stimulating the local economy just by buying stuff. Haha, maybe, but don't wag your finger at me for doing more than you when you cannot wrap your head around it.

You not agreeing with me doesn't mean I ignored what you said. I disagreed with what you said.

You argued that buying 100% is not as helpful as buying 25% and actively promoting events.

This argument is, simply put, a contrived attempt at alleviating guilt from breaking what is, in effect, a social contract with your FLGS.

Now, I do not know your FLGS owner, but I know my own. If I asked him if he preferred me to promote his store (and purchase 25%) or purchase 100% he would choose 100%. Why? Because he can, and does, have employees to promote. Now, if you talk to your FLGS owner and he prefers the other, more power to you. However, I am guessing that you haven't asked, you have assumed. Hence, the social contract, that you purchase in store in return for the open play space, is broken.

Now, regarding my statement that you purchase 100% and actively support. This is what someone who cares about playing with more people and growing the community does.

You can doubt whether or not I do this or not, it doesn't make it false. I can make a moral statement and not live up to it. Honestly your statement that

I'm not engaging you in discussion until you show evidence that you actively promote events at your FLGS. It sounds like you think you're stimulating the local economy just by buying stuff.

is an ad hominim and another attempt to invalidate another's opinion simply because you disagree

@Andre82. So a store is exploiting you if they sell items at MSRP? If you ever shop at a grocery story, quick mart or a gas station are they exploiting you? (Well maybe the oil company but that's a whole different ballgame.)

Honestly you sound very paranoid and angry and I don't have anymore to say to you. Your anger at small business is not justified and honestly you should stop going to LGS's is that is your real feelings about them.

Try not to think about yourself as a victim all the time and you might realize that those guys behind the counter are actually good guys who want to help you with your hobby.

Try to have fun.

What?

He didn't appear 'angry or paranoid' at all in his post.

I love how you discount his concerns at MSRP being exploitation but throw in the good 'ole left wing talking point "those darn oil companies!!11!"... The analogy is the same, a closed market with little real competition that brings about a price point to a consumer that takes advantage of that closed market. When the shop owner was presented with an opportunity of making a sale through negotiation, he chose to do nothing and instead sat on his laurels while a customer made a sale.

That's a single example of what this shop owner has done and as such is nowhere near enough of an information sample for the rest of us to be able to infer poor business acumen of said shop owner. However, this may be a single representative example of a larger set of instances that andre could have pulled from.... Until I see evidence to discount andre, I'll accept what he posts at face value and give his understanding of that shop owner the benefit of the doubt.

But his larger point is that folks who argue that one should shop when possible at the LGS (not saying this is you or mik, but there are those in this thread who have argued this) regardless of price is allowing the shop owner to take advantage of this misplaced loyalty ie exploitation. Now strictly speaking, it's not exploitation as no one has to go to the store to buy anything.

From his position right off the bat where he feels LGS's are exploiting their customers for charging MSRP it sound very conspiracy theory like and not based on facts you will find. What about other retailers that sell at MRSP, like the 96% of stores around the world? Are they Exploiting customers?

He coming from a very extreme position and from his posts he sounds very angry at LGS's. And I also can come up with extreme examples about the dangers of shopping online with identity theft, viruses on your computer and Internet scams, but I am not going to bring those outlier examples in to this conversation because I don't feel those are relevant examples.

No disrespect to you beatty, but it sounds no different to me then your union or oil company conspiracy theory stuff... If it's good for the goose (you) its good for the gander (andre)

I guess I don't see anger in his posts. One of the problems with printed communication is that its much harder to identify emotion when it isn't clearly spelled out. I see his posts more as providing examples of poor showing by a particular game store owner to which is he attributing that to other game shops in general. While not the best way to prove a point, I do think this is forgivable as I think it's natural to ascribe a position from our personal experiences to others.

No disrespect to you beatty, but it sounds no different to me then your union or oil company conspiracy theory stuff... If it's good for the goose (you) its good for the gander (andre)

I guess I don't see anger in his posts. One of the problems with printed communication is that its much harder to identify emotion when it isn't clearly spelled out. I see his posts more as providing examples of poor showing by a particular game store owner to which is he attributing that to other game shops in general. While not the best way to prove a point, I do think this is forgivable as I think it's natural to ascribe a position from our personal experiences to others.

^^^This

I don't see anger in the posts. Maybe anger at a, in his opinion, poorly run FLGS.

I also agree that personal experience is valid, but it is tough to use as evidence when making statements of national or even global scale. Additionally, if you are going to use personal experience as a ethical, moral, legal argument, you have the problem of allowing others to use personal experience contrary to your own.

Seeing as most of the people in this discussion seem to be in their 30-40s, how about a different RL question that most likely has come up in the past decade or two:

When you go to buy a car (once you have decided on your model/brand and desired features) do you look for the best price (or the person who throws in the most extras) at various dealerships, or do you just go to the closest FLCD (Friendly Local Car Dealer) and just pay the MSRP on that car?

Or how about another one:

When you buy an appliance (dishwasher, fridge, oven, etc), assuming it isn't an emergency situation where you NEED IT NOW, do you wait for a 4th of July/Memorial Day/Labor Day sale? Or do you just march in to your local Sears and drop full MSRP $ on it?

I know I tend to look for the best price (from a reputable dealer). There is often a convenience factor, so I may be more willing to pay a few extra $ to stay local - especially if the product is something I can haul myself.

Now, even though the price point is a different range, this is essentially the same thing a number of people are saying. It is hard to justify spending MSRP when you can get 30% off MSRP delivered right to your door. Over the course of a year or so, you have likely spent as much on the hobby as you did on that appliance. So overall it is a sizeable chunk of $$.

If the LGS was to offer some competitive pricing (even 10-15% would be enough for many) or incentives, then I think there would be less 'defection' to online shopping.

This is mostly where I'm coming from...

I don't want to prop up a business model (msrp) in order to have a place to play when I've seen first hand through personal small business ownership that it isn't required to still pay all the required overhead and still make a profit. I'm not saying there is a universal one size fits all solution, but I will argue that there are in almost all cases a solution to the msrp sales model to stay in business concept.

I think many would buy from a local game shop instead of online if they met the consumer part way towards a lower price but not one so low as to try to directly compete with an online business. Each business would need to find that "sweet spot" that is the point where a local shopper would go ahead and pay more than the online sale because the convenience and desire to support the store outweighs that lower online price and wait time.

Where that sweet spot is would vary by business location, local competition and so on....

Seeing as most of the people in this discussion seem to be in their 30-40s, how about a different RL question that most likely has come up in the past decade or two:

When you go to buy a car (once you have decided on your model/brand and desired features) do you look for the best price (or the person who throws in the most extras) at various dealerships, or do you just go to the closest FLCD (Friendly Local Car Dealer) and just pay the MSRP on that car?

Or how about another one:

When you buy an appliance (dishwasher, fridge, oven, etc), assuming it isn't an emergency situation where you NEED IT NOW, do you wait for a 4th of July/Memorial Day/Labor Day sale? Or do you just march in to your local Sears and drop full MSRP $ on it?

I know I tend to look for the best price (from a reputable dealer). There is often a convenience factor, so I may be more willing to pay a few extra $ to stay local - especially if the product is something I can haul myself.

Now, even though the price point is a different range, this is essentially the same thing a number of people are saying. It is hard to justify spending MSRP when you can get 30% off MSRP delivered right to your door. Over the course of a year or so, you have likely spent as much on the hobby as you did on that appliance. So overall it is a sizeable chunk of $$.

If the LGS was to offer some competitive pricing (even 10-15% would be enough for many) or incentives, then I think there would be less 'defection' to online shopping.

No, completely different situation. It would be the same as me buying a washer for 30% off somewhere and then expecting sears to come and do maintanance for free. The FLGS is where you play. If you don't play there, then I am all about buying online. However, if you play at an FLGS, then you should purchase there.

Your last statement may be true, but it isn't what this discussion is about. We are looking at if we SHOULD shop FLGS or not. Not what discount they could offer to keep their customers.

The flgs is providing the game space for several reasons (maybe the owner is a gamer and likes having the space, he wants to generate more sales, etc). Those reasons however are part of their sales attempt to get you, the customer, to buy something.

Unless the game shop states explicitly that you have to pay to play, then that game shop is assuming a risk. That risk is a part of doing business. The risk in this case is providing free gaming space in order to generate additional revenue. It's no different than when big box stores have these amazing sales but only have 10 items in stock. They are taking the risk that getting you in the building will generate other sales even by risking your anger at them not having the product in stock anymore.

The discount is applicable as to why someone should or should not shop at a store. You want to prop up a business that sells items at MSRP because you personally feel that it's helpful to do so. I argue that you are hurting not only yourself but other gamers as well by propping up this type of business model.

Why? Because you are paying more and that shop is driving away potential sales to savvy customers who realize they can get better deals online and still play at the store for free (you disliking or thinking this unethical doesn't change the fact that it happens). Thus causing themselves financial harm due to lost sales and possibly enough harm where they can no longer stay in business.

So do yourself, fellow gamers and the local economy a favor by talking to the shop owner and help them realize through your complaints and lack of purchases that if they don't find a happy medium between online discounts and msrp, they will lose sales.

Two real world examples of why retailers are difficult to support.

When a retailer raises the prices of the FFG official playmats $10 above the MRSP then it's time to order online. That's exactly what happened to me. I called to confirm they had it in stock and was willing to pay full retail. Never thought to check the price since it should be $39.95. I'm in. I get there and it marked for $50. I ask if they have it priced wrong and the person at the counter says it's correct since they have higher expenses than online. Left the store with my son disappointed and empty handed. Came home and ordered it online for $32 shipped free and delivered to my door in two days.

I'm looking for other products and all the retailers I call in the area don't have it in stock. They offer to special order it for me but online it's in stock and I can get it fast and free shipping. Why bother calling them anymore? They never have anything in stock.

That is because on the FFG official playmats FFG sells them to retailers at MSRP. To make a profit they have to add to MSRP. So who is the real problem there? FFG or FLGS?

Finally, they would have more in stock if they didn't lose money to the estores. Just saying, it is a circle.

On the playmats, I am fine with purchasing online because of the above MSRP price (although as I said I think this is FFG being the problem).

"That is because on the FFG official playmats FFG sells them to retailers at MSRP. To make a profit they have to add to MSRP. So who is the real problem there? FFG or FLGS?"

There's no way that is true.

1 part hyperbole, 1 part reality of being a single mom.

I'm not in favour of going to weekly events at a store and never buying things from it.

I'm not in favour of being pressured to buy from LGS despite significantly higher prices on the premise that I've been a naughty girl if I don't do it.

If each of us were to buy 25% of our expansions at the FLGS but actively and aggressively participate in and promote the advertising and growth of your FLGS their sales would increase.

If a person elects to buy 100% at the FLGS but does absolutely nothing to promote the events they attend, brings no one else into the community, and even has a personality that encourages others to avoid the FLGS, then you have a much greater problem and that will ultimately lead to much lower sales.

There is an in between, sure. I know that's what people are going to say - but you shouldn't strive to be medium, you should strive to grande.

In conclusion: buy some but not all of your x-wing or armada or whatever from your FLGS but actively participate in the aggressive expansion of the hobby at your FLGS and the place will get more money than if you were a sack of potatoes but all your money went to them.

Why not both? Why not contribute 100% to FLGS and promote it?

See, you gave a false dichotomy.

Also, these games are a luxury item. If I can only purchase 1 a year because of prices, I should purchase only 1 a year. There is NEVER a choice of buy at FLGS or child's meal. Another false dichotomy.

In general what we are really talking about is the ability to purchase 4 ships instead of 3. Just purchase 3 at the FLGS and wait until later for that next one.

You ignored most of my message and you don't make any sense. You go ahead and do whatever you want but I'm not engaging you in discussion until you show evidence that you actively promote events at your FLGS. It sounds like you think you're stimulating the local economy just by buying stuff. Haha, maybe, but don't wag your finger at me for doing more than you when you cannot wrap your head around it.

You not agreeing with me doesn't mean I ignored what you said. I disagreed with what you said.

You argued that buying 100% is not as helpful as buying 25% and actively promoting events.

This argument is, simply put, a contrived attempt at alleviating guilt from breaking what is, in effect, a social contract with your FLGS.

Now, I do not know your FLGS owner, but I know my own. If I asked him if he preferred me to promote his store (and purchase 25%) or purchase 100% he would choose 100%. Why? Because he can, and does, have employees to promote. Now, if you talk to your FLGS owner and he prefers the other, more power to you. However, I am guessing that you haven't asked, you have assumed. Hence, the social contract, that you purchase in store in return for the open play space, is broken.

Now, regarding my statement that you purchase 100% and actively support. This is what someone who cares about playing with more people and growing the community does.

You can doubt whether or not I do this or not, it doesn't make it false. I can make a moral statement and not live up to it. Honestly your statement that

I'm not engaging you in discussion until you show evidence that you actively promote events at your FLGS. It sounds like you think you're stimulating the local economy just by buying stuff.

is an ad hominim and another attempt to invalidate another's opinion simply because you disagree

That's right precious, your argument is invalid because I disagree.

You are making unfounded assumptions that are incorrect.

Basically, I do not respect you and I'm done with this nonsensical and completely useless internet conversation. I'm going to go back to being more valuable to my community than you are to yours.

From the sounds of it It feels like once again people are arguing about weather you should go for a cheaper price while leaving out the fact you use another source for gaming for free if you do so.

So let's get it back on subject. That's what we are discussing, not weather weather buying online is a smarter choice. That's not the main issue.

I think part of the problem stems from the fact that there's this assumption that everyone (or a majority) plays at their FLGS (or at any GS).

That's an odd analogy since you generally don't intend to use your nearest car dealer as a hobby center where you stop by every other week to socialize with others into the same hobbies.

My 2 cents on this discussion: If, like me, you don't really participate in using your local gamestore as a 'clubhouse' or social center, but instead only collect the miniatures and/or only play with friends at home etc. then you should absolutely buy the stuff online for the cheapest price possible. Otherwise you are a thief of your own wallet, or indeed it is a form of charity to pay more to support a gamestore you rarely/never visit.

However if you do plan to be in your local gamestore regularly and it holds (social) meaning to you (in the same way many people have a local bar they use as a social center that they are willing to support even though they can buy their drinks in a supermarket for 1/3rd of the price), then you should absolutely be buying at that store for the higher price, in which case you are not only paying for the product and the owners salary like you would online, but also the rent of the building, the insurance, the electrical bills, the employees salaries, etc..etc.. Essentially you are paying for your hobby center to be there.

But we don't necessarily expect them to provide the service for free.

If I buy a washer at Lowes and I call Sears to service it, I pay for the service call. Heck, even when I buy it from Sears, there is usually a service fee involved unless it is a factory defect situation. And in a factory defect situation, a lot of game stores tell you to contact the manufacturer anyway, so it isn't like they provide that service (plug for FFG's excellent customer service, who just sent me 3 tiny TIE fighters when I reported 1 folded in wing on a TIE from 1 of 2 Armada box sets I bought).

A number of the Game Shops I play at charge for table space - either a flat fee, or a receipt that you bought something at the shop that day (not all of them, but more than half).

Every Game Shop that I have gone to for Organized Play charged an event fee.

Devil's advocate here, but if I am paying for the service, why am I also expected to purchase my product from them? If I go to a pool hall, I rent a pool table, but I may bring my own pool cue (that I purchased elsewhere). If I go bowling, I rent the lane, but they don't force me to rent a ball or shoes if I have my own.

@Andre82. So a store is exploiting you if they sell items at MSRP? If you ever shop at a grocery story, quick mart or a gas station are they exploiting you? (Well maybe the oil company but that's a whole different ballgame.)

Honestly you sound very paranoid and angry and I don't have anymore to say to you. Your anger at small business is not justified and honestly you should stop going to LGS's is that is your real feelings about them.

Try not to think about yourself as a victim all the time and you might realize that those guys behind the counter are actually good guys who want to help you with your hobby.

Try to have fun.

What?

He didn't appear 'angry or paranoid' at all in his post.

I love how you discount his concerns at MSRP being exploitation but throw in the good 'ole left wing talking point "those darn oil companies!!11!"... The analogy is the same, a closed market with little real competition that brings about a price point to a consumer that takes advantage of that closed market. When the shop owner was presented with an opportunity of making a sale through negotiation, he chose to do nothing and instead sat on his laurels while a customer made a sale.

That's a single example of what this shop owner has done and as such is nowhere near enough of an information sample for the rest of us to be able to infer poor business acumen of said shop owner. However, this may be a single representative example of a larger set of instances that andre could have pulled from.... Until I see evidence to discount andre, I'll accept what he posts at face value and give his understanding of that shop owner the benefit of the doubt.

But his larger point is that folks who argue that one should shop when possible at the LGS (not saying this is you or mik, but there are those in this thread who have argued this) regardless of price is allowing the shop owner to take advantage of this misplaced loyalty ie exploitation. Now strictly speaking, it's not exploitation as no one has to go to the store to buy anything.

From his position right off the bat where he feels LGS's are exploiting their customers for charging MSRP it sound very conspiracy theory like and not based on facts you will find. What about other retailers that sell at MRSP, like the 96% of stores around the world? Are they Exploiting customers?

He coming from a very extreme position and from his posts he sounds very angry at LGS's. And I also can come up with extreme examples about the dangers of shopping online with identity theft, viruses on your computer and Internet scams, but I am not going to bring those outlier examples in to this conversation because I don't feel those are relevant examples.

No disrespect to you beatty, but it sounds no different to me then your union or oil company conspiracy theory stuff... If it's good for the goose (you) its good for the gander (andre)

I guess I don't see anger in his posts. One of the problems with printed communication is that its much harder to identify emotion when it isn't clearly spelled out. I see his posts more as providing examples of poor showing by a particular game store owner to which is he attributing that to other game shops in general. While not the best way to prove a point, I do think this is forgivable as I think it's natural to ascribe a position from our personal experiences to others.

Should have explained it more before but as I said that is a whole different story that many may not remember.

1 part hyperbole, 1 part reality of being a single mom.

I'm not in favour of going to weekly events at a store and never buying things from it.

I'm not in favour of being pressured to buy from LGS despite significantly higher prices on the premise that I've been a naughty girl if I don't do it.

If each of us were to buy 25% of our expansions at the FLGS but actively and aggressively participate in and promote the advertising and growth of your FLGS their sales would increase.

If a person elects to buy 100% at the FLGS but does absolutely nothing to promote the events they attend, brings no one else into the community, and even has a personality that encourages others to avoid the FLGS, then you have a much greater problem and that will ultimately lead to much lower sales.

There is an in between, sure. I know that's what people are going to say - but you shouldn't strive to be medium, you should strive to grande.

In conclusion: buy some but not all of your x-wing or armada or whatever from your FLGS but actively participate in the aggressive expansion of the hobby at your FLGS and the place will get more money than if you were a sack of potatoes but all your money went to them.

Why not both? Why not contribute 100% to FLGS and promote it?

See, you gave a false dichotomy.

Also, these games are a luxury item. If I can only purchase 1 a year because of prices, I should purchase only 1 a year. There is NEVER a choice of buy at FLGS or child's meal. Another false dichotomy.

In general what we are really talking about is the ability to purchase 4 ships instead of 3. Just purchase 3 at the FLGS and wait until later for that next one.

You ignored most of my message and you don't make any sense. You go ahead and do whatever you want but I'm not engaging you in discussion until you show evidence that you actively promote events at your FLGS. It sounds like you think you're stimulating the local economy just by buying stuff. Haha, maybe, but don't wag your finger at me for doing more than you when you cannot wrap your head around it.

You not agreeing with me doesn't mean I ignored what you said. I disagreed with what you said.

You argued that buying 100% is not as helpful as buying 25% and actively promoting events.

This argument is, simply put, a contrived attempt at alleviating guilt from breaking what is, in effect, a social contract with your FLGS.

Now, I do not know your FLGS owner, but I know my own. If I asked him if he preferred me to promote his store (and purchase 25%) or purchase 100% he would choose 100%. Why? Because he can, and does, have employees to promote. Now, if you talk to your FLGS owner and he prefers the other, more power to you. However, I am guessing that you haven't asked, you have assumed. Hence, the social contract, that you purchase in store in return for the open play space, is broken.

Now, regarding my statement that you purchase 100% and actively support. This is what someone who cares about playing with more people and growing the community does.

You can doubt whether or not I do this or not, it doesn't make it false. I can make a moral statement and not live up to it. Honestly your statement that

I'm not engaging you in discussion until you show evidence that you actively promote events at your FLGS. It sounds like you think you're stimulating the local economy just by buying stuff.

is an ad hominim and another attempt to invalidate another's opinion simply because you disagree

That's right precious, your argument is invalid because I disagree.

You are making unfounded assumptions that are incorrect.

Basically, I do not respect you and I'm done with this nonsensical and completely useless internet conversation. I'm going to go back to being more valuable to my community than you are to yours.

So I certainly don't want you to think that I am attacking you, so I am going to express my position. Perhaps it will help alleviate some of your anger at me.

Let's start by giving the scenario in which I am working. I am speaking to a situation in which a person plays at a FLGS. If someone plays at home or whatnot, then by all means, please purchase online.

In a situation where a persons primary play is at an FLGS, then they SHOULD purchase from that store. Coming up with an exact amount is difficult, but I would suggest that the percentage spent at the store should be At LEAST roughly equal to the percentage of your physical (non-vassal since you don't need the models for that) play that occurs at that store.

I believe this because the store is giving certain benefit to the community that an estore does not. I am then paying the difference in price for the use of the store.

This leaves people with the following good responses:

• Purchase at online stores and do not play at FLGS
• Purchase at FLGS and play at FLGS
• Purchase at FLGS and play elsewhere (somewhat odd, but not wrong...still supporting community business)

Poor responses:

• Purchase at online store and play at FLGS

There will obviously be varying percentages and opinions; however, it would be IMO wrong to err on the side of "save me money no matter the impact on others" rather than on the side of local business that is actively supporting me by giving me a place to play and meet others with whom I can play.

To claim that I have no responsibility to support a business that provides me a service is quite questionable.

Two real world examples of why retailers are difficult to support.

When a retailer raises the prices of the FFG official playmats $10 above the MRSP then it's time to order online. That's exactly what happened to me. I called to confirm they had it in stock and was willing to pay full retail. Never thought to check the price since it should be $39.95. I'm in. I get there and it marked for $50. I ask if they have it priced wrong and the person at the counter says it's correct since they have higher expenses than online. Left the store with my son disappointed and empty handed. Came home and ordered it online for $32 shipped free and delivered to my door in two days.

I'm looking for other products and all the retailers I call in the area don't have it in stock. They offer to special order it for me but online it's in stock and I can get it fast and free shipping. Why bother calling them anymore? They never have anything in stock.

That is because on the FFG official playmats FFG sells them to retailers at MSRP. To make a profit they have to add to MSRP. So who is the real problem there? FFG or FLGS?

Finally, they would have more in stock if they didn't lose money to the estores. Just saying, it is a circle.

On the playmats, I am fine with purchasing online because of the above MSRP price (although as I said I think this is FFG being the problem).

"That is because on the FFG official playmats FFG sells them to retailers at MSRP. To make a profit they have to add to MSRP. So who is the real problem there? FFG or FLGS?"

There's no way that is true.

Actually, it is true.

Even if I didn't have information that it is true, do you really think that all the FLGSs got together and said, "Let's mark up this one FFG item above MSRP. Leave all the others as they are, but this one we price up."

Edit: You are correct, it is VERY SLIGHTLY below MSRP that the stores get the mats. I apologize for the mistake.

No, completely different situation. It would be the same as me buying a washer for 30% off somewhere and then expecting sears to come and do maintanance for free. The FLGS is where you play. If you don't play there, then I am all about buying online. However, if you play at an FLGS, then you should purchase there.

But we don't necessarily expect them to provide the service for free.

If I buy a washer at Lowes and I call Sears to service it, I pay for the service call. Heck, even when I buy it from Sears, there is usually a service fee involved unless it is a factory defect situation. And in a factory defect situation, a lot of game stores tell you to contact the manufacturer anyway, so it isn't like they provide that service (plug for FFG's excellent customer service, who just sent me 3 tiny TIE fighters when I reported 1 folded in wing on a TIE from 1 of 2 Armada box sets I bought).

A number of the Game Shops I play at charge for table space - either a flat fee, or a receipt that you bought something at the shop that day (not all of them, but more than half).

Every Game Shop that I have gone to for Organized Play charged an event fee.

Devil's advocate here, but if I am paying for the service, why am I also expected to purchase my product from them? If I go to a pool hall, I rent a pool table, but I may bring my own pool cue (that I purchased elsewhere). If I go bowling, I rent the lane, but they don't force me to rent a ball or shoes if I have my own.

I would say that in the case of a Game Shop that charges for table space you would have less of a responsibility to purchase at the store because they have made clear what their price for tables is. However, there may be other things at play. They may have 2 tables and they are always full. Paying may be their method of limiting table time (I would suggest it isn't the best or most ethical solution). They may also be attempting to lure a more affluent clientele. Nevertheless, I do think it alleviates the responsibility, but haven't thought as much about it since my FLGS doesn't do this.

Good points about the bowling alley. I think that the situation is different. A FLGS that has a pay per table situation is EXACTLY like the bowling alley. However, one that doesn't is a different situation. The problem with analogies is that they tend to break down and are imperfect.

Good points about the bowling alley. I think that the situation is different. A FLGS that has a pay per table situation is EXACTLY like the bowling alley. However, one that doesn't is a different situation. The problem with analogies is that they tend to break down and are imperfect.

Fair enough, and we are generalizing in our statements - obviously even comparing 1 FLGS to another will have differences,

To claim that I have no responsibility to support a business that provides me a service is quite questionable.

This assumes the store is providing a service. That's always been my issue with many of the posts in other threads, where people come down on someone for buying stuff online. They assume that the LGS provides a service to that person. Which isn't always true. Even if that store has tablespace, how much of a service it may be is going to vary. That leads to this idea that someone is taking advantage of the LGS by being provided a service they haven't paid for.

In theory a store could offer table space, but still not provide a useful service. What if they expected X-Wing or Armada players to clear out when people shows up with a MtG deck and there's no other tables open? What if they expect you to stop in the middle of the game and pack up? Or just pack up after you finish. That's not much of a service.

What if the store only offers bare tables and nothing else? Compare that to my LGS that has a lot of terrain you can use when you play. How much is the service of terrain worth?

For a X-Wing or Armada player next to nothing really, for a 40k or Warmahordes player quite a lot.

I have no issue with buying stuff at my FLGS, but I will only buy enough to pay for the service the store offers. I also think that since I'm running a X-Wing league there, and have brought in new customers, that also earns me some 'online credit'.

My issue is that it's far too often treated as black and white issue, either you buy from the LGS or you don't. There's no allowance for buying some stuff one place and other stuff someplace else. There's no allowance for community building as a way to support the LGS. There's far too often the assumption that a LGS actually provides a service the person wants.

I guess I could sum it up with. As long as you're buying enough stuff at your LGS to pay for whatever services it offers, you're doing the most that should be expected of you.

FWIW...

If I were to open a game store, I'd do it like the FFG event center does. They offer boardgames you can rent, they also rent terrain as well as some really sweet custom model tables they made. they also sell food and drinks.

You want to just come in and play, they don't seem to care, but they offer a lot of additional things that you can rent, which helps pay for the table space. I think that's something LGS' need to consider, alternate revenue streams if simple sales isn't enough.

Two real world examples of why retailers are difficult to support.

When a retailer raises the prices of the FFG official playmats $10 above the MRSP then it's time to order online. That's exactly what happened to me. I called to confirm they had it in stock and was willing to pay full retail. Never thought to check the price since it should be $39.95. I'm in. I get there and it marked for $50. I ask if they have it priced wrong and the person at the counter says it's correct since they have higher expenses than online. Left the store with my son disappointed and empty handed. Came home and ordered it online for $32 shipped free and delivered to my door in two days.

I'm looking for other products and all the retailers I call in the area don't have it in stock. They offer to special order it for me but online it's in stock and I can get it fast and free shipping. Why bother calling them anymore? They never have anything in stock.

That is because on the FFG official playmats FFG sells them to retailers at MSRP. To make a profit they have to add to MSRP. So who is the real problem there? FFG or FLGS?

Finally, they would have more in stock if they didn't lose money to the estores. Just saying, it is a circle.

On the playmats, I am fine with purchasing online because of the above MSRP price (although as I said I think this is FFG being the problem).

"That is because on the FFG official playmats FFG sells them to retailers at MSRP. To make a profit they have to add to MSRP. So who is the real problem there? FFG or FLGS?"

There's no way that is true.

Actually, it is true.

Even if I didn't have information that it is true, do you really think that all the FLGSs got together and said, "Let's mark up this one FFG item above MSRP. Leave all the others as they are, but this one we price up."

Strange the 2 LGS I go to charge MSRP. The one I'm in now just told me he does not get them for MSRP but the profit margin on them is not as high. So I'm finding this a bit hard to believe.

To claim that I have no responsibility to support a business that provides me a service is quite questionable.

This assumes the store is providing a service. That's always been my issue with many of the posts in other threads, where people come down on someone for buying stuff online. They assume that the LGS provides a service to that person. Which isn't always true. Even if that store has tablespace, how much of a service it may be is going to vary. That leads to this idea that someone is taking advantage of the LGS by being provided a service they haven't paid for.

In theory a store could offer table space, but still not provide a useful service. What if they expected X-Wing or Armada players to clear out when people shows up with a MtG deck and there's no other tables open? What if they expect you to stop in the middle of the game and pack up? Or just pack up after you finish. That's not much of a service.

What if the store only offers bare tables and nothing else? Compare that to my LGS that has a lot of terrain you can use when you play. How much is the service of terrain worth?

For a X-Wing or Armada player next to nothing really, for a 40k or Warmahordes player quite a lot.

I have no issue with buying stuff at my FLGS, but I will only buy enough to pay for the service the store offers. I also think that since I'm running a X-Wing league there, and have brought in new customers, that also earns me some 'online credit'.

My issue is that it's far too often treated as black and white issue, either you buy from the LGS or you don't. There's no allowance for buying some stuff one place and other stuff someplace else. There's no allowance for community building as a way to support the LGS. There's far too often the assumption that a LGS actually provides a service the person wants.

I guess I could sum it up with. As long as you're buying enough stuff at your LGS to pay for whatever services it offers, you're doing the most that should be expected of you.

FWIW...

If I were to open a game store, I'd do it like the FFG event center does. They offer boardgames you can rent, they also rent terrain as well as some really sweet custom model tables they made. they also sell food and drinks.

You want to just come in and play, they don't seem to care, but they offer a lot of additional things that you can rent, which helps pay for the table space. I think that's something LGS' need to consider, alternate revenue streams if simple sales isn't enough.

Interesting thoughts. I am certainly basing my thoughts off of my FLGS.

They provide bare tables and some terrain. They will only kick you off of a table (never had it actually happen) if there is an advertised event, in which case they notify you that you may lose the table. They try hard to avoid it.

I also think that they provide more than just a table when I go there. They provide community, advice, people with whom to play (some of their employees are available to play when there is a lack of other people).

There is also a tendency for people to say that they support the store some and then also buy online. However, when it comes down to it, the buying in store becomes an afterthought or is done VERY occasionally. I would prefer (note that this is not a moral judgement) to err on the side of helping the people I know.

Two real world examples of why retailers are difficult to support.

When a retailer raises the prices of the FFG official playmats $10 above the MRSP then it's time to order online. That's exactly what happened to me. I called to confirm they had it in stock and was willing to pay full retail. Never thought to check the price since it should be $39.95. I'm in. I get there and it marked for $50. I ask if they have it priced wrong and the person at the counter says it's correct since they have higher expenses than online. Left the store with my son disappointed and empty handed. Came home and ordered it online for $32 shipped free and delivered to my door in two days.

I'm looking for other products and all the retailers I call in the area don't have it in stock. They offer to special order it for me but online it's in stock and I can get it fast and free shipping. Why bother calling them anymore? They never have anything in stock.

That is because on the FFG official playmats FFG sells them to retailers at MSRP. To make a profit they have to add to MSRP. So who is the real problem there? FFG or FLGS?

Finally, they would have more in stock if they didn't lose money to the estores. Just saying, it is a circle.

On the playmats, I am fine with purchasing online because of the above MSRP price (although as I said I think this is FFG being the problem).

"That is because on the FFG official playmats FFG sells them to retailers at MSRP. To make a profit they have to add to MSRP. So who is the real problem there? FFG or FLGS?"

There's no way that is true.

Actually, it is true.

Even if I didn't have information that it is true, do you really think that all the FLGSs got together and said, "Let's mark up this one FFG item above MSRP. Leave all the others as they are, but this one we price up."

Strange the 2 LGS I go to charge MSRP. The one I'm in now just told me he does not get them for MSRP but the profit margin on them is not as high. So I'm finding this a bit hard to believe.

I could be remembering wrong. It might be slightly below MSRP and a very low profit margin. I apologize if this is the case.

Edit: You are correct, it is VERY SLIGHTLY below MSRP that the stores get the mats.