Someone should really tell them they have "overhead" and "bills" and can't afford to charge Armada for $79.I found this LGS using Google maps. It sounds amazing!http://www.toledogameroom.com
Somehow they are able to offer below-MSRP pricing for everyone (Armada core $79 for example), offer free shipping on orders over $75, they provide a free place to play, as well as hosting organized events.
They have been in business since 1987.
Apparently, it is not impossible. They seem to be fairly successful.
Funny they even undercut my suggested price of $79 when you preorder.
To LGS or not to LGS? That is the question.
There are any number of reasons that overhead could be reduced. We'vr been over that. It could be that the Game Store owner owns the property. That they make a lot off of online sales. That they work alone for a ton of hours a week to cut costs. That the city subsidizes their business. That doesn't change the reality of what most businesses face. Look at the average not the exception.
Someone should really tell them they have "overhead" and "bills" and can't afford to charge Armada for $79.I found this LGS using Google maps. It sounds amazing!http://www.toledogameroom.com
Somehow they are able to offer below-MSRP pricing for everyone (Armada core $79 for example), offer free shipping on orders over $75, they provide a free place to play, as well as hosting organized events.
They have been in business since 1987.
Apparently, it is not impossible. They seem to be fairly successful.
Funny they even undercut my suggested price of $79 when you preorder.
Very true.
And I could just as easily argue that maybe they are trying harder, understand the market better, and are simply better at business.
Look at what works, not what fails.
If thry have been in business since '87 then they likely own the property, have cheap remaining overhead, and rely on online sales to stay in business
If thry have been in business since '87 then they likely own the property, have cheap remaining overhead, and rely on online sales to stay in business
Maybe... Or maybe the building was last sold for $235,000 on January 25, 2011.
Oh Andre, if there is one thing we can count on, it's you providing nothing useful.
Hmmmm. . . Just from their online reviews I see why they are trying to compete because they need to do Loss Leader sales.
Here is the difference between a well run shop like Guardian who does not need to compete online vs one that is not being run well.
Oh Andre, if there is one thing we can count on, it's you providing nothing useful.
Hmmmm. . . Just from their online reviews I see why they are trying to compete because they need to do Loss Leader sales.
I might actually be being dense here. Could you better explain what you mean by "trying to compete"?
This shop has changed hands. It is no longer the biggest shop in town and so it needs to bring in more traphic. To do this, it's gaming prices have to compete with online sources because they dontbhave a loyal base.
You want to know who buys Armada more often? People who play X-Wing. Those that play X-Wing are more likely to buy an Armada core set.
Do you know roughly how much FFG charges for their products? Roughly 55% of MSRP. So an Armada core set costs up to $55 and if they sell it for $76 that is $21ish for expenses before any actual profit.
Now a good gaming company with their finances done right gets about 36% of what is left after they pay for the MSRP.
So of the rough $21, they actually get about $7.50 in actual profit. The other $14ish goes towards expenses. Onlinebretailers get about 45% or better Per sale.
Let's see for a full price core set, that is $45 after MSRP, a store would get about $16.20 in actual profits.
So in reality, selling 1 full price Armada box is better than competing with online prices.
This shop has changed hands. It is no longer the biggest shop in town and so it needs to bring in more traphic. To do this, it's gaming prices have to compete with online sources because they dontbhave a loyal base.
So to paraphrase. This store NEEDS to compete with online stores like amazon to make a profit. It has done this by lowering it's prices. It must do this because it is lacking a loyal base willing to be charged more.
I know you guys like bulling me but even the most willfully blind of all of you have to see the irony here....
Do you know roughly how much FFG charges for their products? Roughly 55% of MSRP. So an Armada core set costs up to $55 and if they sell it for $76 that is $21ish for expenses before any actual profit.
Yeh making $21 for a $55 investment is still pretty good considering you would have to sell 2 $60 X-box games to make that kinda money.
That's exactly it! The lack of people wanting to buy there means they have no choice. That is usually due to bad management or workers, lack of events, etc.
TsT he irony is that there are what, 5 to 7 stores here in Portland Oregon that don't need to do that. They can get away with full price because they have a great set of loyal customers who are willing to pay full price because they know it gets used to build the community.
The $21 is not profit though. That's the money needed to pay employ, to give oneself a wage, to pay rent, electricity, expanding stock, etc. Remember they get roughly 36% of that $21. Here is where i am getting my data
http://dsgcw.blogspot.com/2015_04_01_archive.html
They actually make more money selling at full price. It is not likely that a core set will stick on a shelf for long considering
1) it is star wars
2) it is FFG
3) the game is REALLY good.
So full price is the better way to go.
Andre, I don't like bullying you. In fact I try not to but you have a tendency to ignore important points. There is more to things than the Gross Pay.
They get away with it because too many are fooled into thinking that msrp=community and that without one you can't have the other.
They get away with it because too many are fooled into thinking that msrp=community and that without one you can't have the other.
I'm not sure anyone actually thinks that.
I'm willing to pay MSRP at my LGS because the services I get from it are worth paying more than I would online. If he charged more than MSRP, I may still pay it, depending on how much over it was, and how much was offered there. Charging less the MSRP wouldn't mean the community would suffer, directly. Unless the owner couldn't keep the store open when charging the lower price.
Most of us simply recognize that a store charges what the store charges and we shop there if we feel we're getting a good value for our money.
I honestly don't know why this is even a debate. If you don't feel you get enough value from a LGS to make paying MSRP worth it, then don't. But if you consume services at your LGS you should be willing to pay for it.
It's really as simple as that, this whole thing about MSRP being fair or not is a bit of a straman. The question has nothing to do with MSRP, it has everything to do with what your LGS is charging, and if it's worth it or not.
Edited by VanorDMThat's exactly it! The lack of people wanting to buy there means they have no choice. That is usually due to bad management or workers, lack of events, etc.
TsT he irony is that there are what, 5 to 7 stores here in Portland Oregon that don't need to do that. They can get away with full price because they have a great set of loyal customers who are willing to pay full price because they know it gets used to build the community.
The $21 is not profit though. That's the money needed to pay employ, to give oneself a wage, to pay rent, electricity, expanding stock, etc. Remember they get roughly 36% of that $21. Here is where i am getting my data
http://dsgcw.blogspot.com/2015_04_01_archive.html
They actually make more money selling at full price. It is not likely that a core set will stick on a shelf for long considering
1) it is star wars
2) it is FFG
3) the game is REALLY good.
So full price is the better way to go.
Andre, I don't like bullying you. In fact I try not to but you have a tendency to ignore important points. There is more to things than the Gross Pay.
Not to argue any point in particular, I do want to point out Portland is a pretty unique place and what works there is not necessarily gonna work anywhere else. I don't mean that in a bad way either, I'm already on record that I love Portland.
That's exactly it! The lack of people wanting to buy there means they have no choice. That is usually due to bad management or workers, lack of events, etc.
Usually maybe. However other factors could also effect sales like the MSRP being so high that even loyal customers can't justify buying from you.
The $21 is not profit though. That's the money needed to pay employ, to give oneself a wage, to pay rent, electricity, expanding stock, etc.
Same would also be true of those $60 X-Box games. The retailer only gets about $12 gross from selling a brand new non discounted game. That $12 is also needed to pay employs, to give oneself a wage, to pay rent, electricity, expanding stock, etc.
They actually make more money selling at full price. It is not likely that a core set will stick on a shelf for long considering
1) it is star wars
2) it is FFG
3) the game is REALLY good.
So full price is the better way to go.
Yes full price is the way to go... if it moves. If it is not selling you are not making any money to pay employs, to give oneself a wage, to pay rent, electricity, expanding stock, etc.
Your argument hinges on how likely it is to sell at full price as opposed to losing the sale to amazon.
Remember my shop has not soled a single core set and even lost a sale to Bob in the back with a Amazon Prime account. Now you can blame this on poor management, a disloyal customer base or whatever, but if you are not selling any and you know people want them... maybe you should consider other options.
Also amusingly my LGS sold 80% of all the wave one ships same day, but can't sell a starter set.
Andre, I don't like bullying you. In fact I try not to but you have a tendency to ignore important points. There is more to things than the Gross Pay.
For the most part I am not ignoring points. I am disagreeing. When I do decide to not respond to a "point" it tends to be because it would be derailing.
Not selling something gets you farther in the red, Selling something, even at only $25 profit will get you more out of the red then not selling it.
They get away with it because too many are fooled into thinking that msrp=community and that without one you can't have the other.
Yah msrp is not the same as community, A well run shop that is stable and friendly however helps with community. Sometimes keeping that shop well run and stable means you charge msrp. I am cool with that. But when that msrp is $30 more then what you pay on amazon it looks more like community = exploitation of your costumer base or at lest bad management imo.
Sometimes keeping that shop well run and stable means you charge msrp. I am cool with that.
How much more MSRP is them amazon is completely pointless to if a store should or should not charge MSRP. None of us can really say what any given store needs to charge in order to stay open, so trying to put an upper limit on how much over Amazon is fair, is complete and utter nonsense.
If you don't think what a store is charging for any given product, be it the Armada core set, or a bunch of bananas is fair, then don't buy it. But if you chose not to do that, then you will have to live with whatever consequences that choice may bring.
Look, I could get everything I need I line for cheaper than in a store, anyone can. One can buy food, clothes, entertainment, etc online. So why don't people do just that?
The issue is You are considering MSRP as a rip off, its not. MSRP is what people should sell things for to make the most profits in a brick-and mortar environment.
Here is a great link that explains the difference between online vs brick and motar.
http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1111/comparing-online-and-in-store-prices.aspx
One of my favorite quotes from that article I just links
"Online merchandise doesn't have to be displayed in an expensive storefront and often doesn't need to be held in a warehouse - it can be shipped directly from the manufacturer to the customer."
Do remember that I am not condemning people for buying online, I am just defending their right to sell at MSRP and why they do such
A final thought...
Something a lot of people aren't accounting for is traffic and sales volume.
Walmart for example can sell for less at least in part because of the volume of sales it makes. The FFG event center could maybe get by with charing under MSRP because it seems have a lot of traffic. Every time I've been there, there's been 20+ people at the place.
But my LGS is busy if he has 4 or 5 people in there at the same time. For him, reducing the price isn't going to increase sales by much if any, because there just aren't that many customers in the area.
No one is going to buy a 3rd Assault Frigate or 4th ISD just because it's 10-15% under MSRP. They're going to buy how many they want and be done with it. So for some, maybe many LGS's selling under MSRP may not actually be a net increase in profit, because the volume of sales isn't going to go up by enough to make up the lower profit per item.
Edited by VanorDMI tend to buy most of my games at my FLGS because the people there are awesome. They also freely offer tables, terrain and mats to play our favorite miniature games anytime we want. They even let us play past the closing hour if one of the employee stays with us, which happen at least 3 evenings a week.
So yeah, to thank them I buy a lot there, even bought the entire Armada Wave 1 from them.
But, I don't feel bad about ordering online, not bad at all. I must spend around $1500 a year in games and maybe $1000 is spent at my FLGS. They don't like to hear it but they don't mind when you at least thank them with some purchases.
My FLGS gave me a 20% discount on all my Wave 1 stuff.
Yea Portland is special. Guardian is slow where there are only 10ish people in the store. Having been there at the Theros pre-release, where they had about 60+ of the 6' white folding tables out, yea. . . It can get super busy
Edited by LyraeusLuckily for me, Cool Stuff IS my FLGS, so I get 30 percent off msrp and buy where I play. Win-Win. The other shops in the area simply can't compete - neither on price, nor quality customer service, nor support.
Look, I could get everything I need I line for cheaper than in a store, anyone can. One can buy food, clothes, entertainment, etc online. So why don't people do just that?
The issue is You are considering MSRP as a rip off, its not. MSRP is what people should sell things for to make the most profits in a brick-and mortar environment.
Here is a great link that explains the difference between online vs brick and motar.
http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1111/comparing-online-and-in-store-prices.aspx
One of my favorite quotes from that article I just links
"Online merchandise doesn't have to be displayed in an expensive storefront and often doesn't need to be held in a warehouse - it can be shipped directly from the manufacturer to the customer."
Do remember that I am not condemning people for buying online, I am just defending their right to sell at MSRP and why they do such
Actually, I do find MSRP to be a rip off in most cases...
MSRP is nothing more than the company deciding how it values it's own products. Now if you're comfortable with what a company decides the value of what it makes should be, then that's fine. I'm not as willing to accept that they value their items (any company, not just ffg) at 100 to 200% over the price they sell to distributors.
Also, MSRP is absolutely not designed to make the most profits in a brick and mortar environment. It limits what a brick and mortar environment can do.... Anytime a store wants to go over that MSRP, it does so at the risk of alienating customers because they can see what the product "should" sell for according to the company that manufactured it. Thus brick and mortar stores get squeezed between what the distributor (sometimes the company sometimes a middleman) sells to the store at and what they can charge at the upper end.
Also, MSRP is absolutely not designed to make the most profits in a brick and mortar environment. It limits what a brick and mortar environment can do.... Anytime a store wants to go over that MSRP, it does so at the risk of alienating customers because they can see what the product "should" sell for according to the company that manufactured it. Thus brick and mortar stores get squeezed between what the distributor (sometimes the company sometimes a middleman) sells to the store at and what they can charge at the upper end.
But this is what we have, an imperfect business structure where the vast majority of consumers have no concept of how it works. (Having a BSN I see it like the human body, you live in one your whole life but most have no idea of what makes it work, it's like magic to them.) So they are either inherently Trustful or Distrustful depending on how they where raised and their experience so the idea of what happens behind closed doors of a business is like magic to them, it just happens.
As a previous business owner I think you understand more of what happens, but your experience in you local market and nature of business left you biased as my experience left me biased , but you do also have a better understanding in the end. Even if we don't 100% agree.
Edited by Beatty
Not trying to selectively pick apart your post but I think this is part of the core problem from your and my prospective. We know that the MSRP is not perfect and at times has been an issue with certain companies. The "Idea" of a MSRP is to help the Stores stay open while protecting the customers, but no idealistic concept like this survives reality. Every store has different needs, costumer base and overheads so the One Size Fits All is impossible to nail down.Also, MSRP is absolutely not designed to make the most profits in a brick and mortar environment. It limits what a brick and mortar environment can do.... Anytime a store wants to go over that MSRP, it does so at the risk of alienating customers because they can see what the product "should" sell for according to the company that manufactured it. Thus brick and mortar stores get squeezed between what the distributor (sometimes the company sometimes a middleman) sells to the store at and what they can charge at the upper end.
But this is what we have, an imperfect business structure where the vast majority of consumers have no concept of how it works. (Having a BSN I see it like the human body, you live in one your whole life but most have no idea of what makes it work, it's like magic to them.) So they are either inherently Trustful or Distrustful depending on how they where raised and their experience so the idea of what happens behind closed doors of a business is like magic to them, it just happens.
As a previous business owner I think you understand more of what happens, but your experience in you local market and nature of business left you biased as my experience left me biased , but you do also have a better understanding in the end. Even if we don't 100% agree.
I agree with what you're saying here...
My point was to counter Lyraeus in saying that MSRP should be seen as what bricks and mortar should use to make the most profit.
Simple business concept is to the sell the mostest for the leastest cost... a built in MSRP prevents most stores from successfully charging more than MSRP, thus negating any local advantages that they may have which could allow them to sell for more.
Then going to the more complex, where selling for less can increase total sales and thus increase overall profits. All of which are dependent on local modifiers such population per square mile, average age and mean income within certain distances from the store, amount of local competition, etc etc ad nauseum. However, just going from generics which is all we can really do without a specific analysis of each locale, trusting in MSRP to be the way to make the most profit for a store isn't actually true.
Not trying to selectively pick apart your post but I think this is part of the core problem from your and my prospective. We know that the MSRP is not perfect and at times has been an issue with certain companies. The "Idea" of a MSRP is to help the Stores stay open while protecting the customers, but no idealistic concept like this survives reality. Every store has different needs, costumer base and overheads so the One Size Fits All is impossible to nail down.Also, MSRP is absolutely not designed to make the most profits in a brick and mortar environment. It limits what a brick and mortar environment can do.... Anytime a store wants to go over that MSRP, it does so at the risk of alienating customers because they can see what the product "should" sell for according to the company that manufactured it. Thus brick and mortar stores get squeezed between what the distributor (sometimes the company sometimes a middleman) sells to the store at and what they can charge at the upper end.
But this is what we have, an imperfect business structure where the vast majority of consumers have no concept of how it works. (Having a BSN I see it like the human body, you live in one your whole life but most have no idea of what makes it work, it's like magic to them.) So they are either inherently Trustful or Distrustful depending on how they where raised and their experience so the idea of what happens behind closed doors of a business is like magic to them, it just happens.
As a previous business owner I think you understand more of what happens, but your experience in you local market and nature of business left you biased as my experience left me biased , but you do also have a better understanding in the end. Even if we don't 100% agree.
I agree with what you're saying here...
My point was to counter Lyraeus in saying that MSRP should be seen as what bricks and mortar should use to make the most profit.
Simple business concept is to the sell the mostest for the leastest cost... a built in MSRP prevents most stores from successfully charging more than MSRP, thus negating any local advantages that they may have which could allow them to sell for more.
Then going to the more complex, where selling for less can increase total sales and thus increase overall profits. All of which are dependent on local modifiers such population per square mile, average age and mean income within certain distances from the store, amount of local competition, etc etc ad nauseum. However, just going from generics which is all we can really do without a specific analysis of each locale, trusting in MSRP to be the way to make the most profit for a store isn't actually true.
And you and I know how well that works out. But that's what we got for now.
(How do we go from here in an economic way I do not know, but we still have to be smart shoppers and look at what information we have to make a good decision based on our beliefs.)