"You see that toy that other store is selling at 15$? I can sell you one too at 15$ and I will even lets you use my tables (so other customers can see it played and kinda gives me free advertising), but only if you first buy 10 of them at 20$. Sound like a deal right?"

Table space isn't free. You pay for square footage. If a store is dedicating space for playing tables, they are giving up space that could be used to merchandise other products that directly make money instead of hoping that the space will generate sales.

[buying local argument]

Yes and no... Let's remember that said shop owner is probably, like the rest of us, going to shop at walmart, at target, at an international gas station, at a movie theater subsidizing out of state movie production, etc etc...

In addition, I'd even argue that its likely that the warehouse workers might even make a smidge more per hour than the flgs store clerk.

While I'm not saying that spending local is useless, I think a bit too much if made of it in these days when the majority of the products we buy are sold by international corporations and made overseas. I'm also not sure the trade imbalance between states is significant enough to merit a damaging effect on one state over another unlike what's going on with the trade imbalance between the US and china for example. I do agree that what goes out isn't guaranteed to come back. But I also don't care if it does and it wasn't my point. (I hope that doesn't come off as sarcastic, it's not meant to be by any means)... My point was more to argue against this protectionist notion that economy suffers if one doesn't "buy local".... that it's much more complex than that and isn't really a good argument to say, "shop at your local flgs because it supports the local economy!"

Yes, the local shop owner may buy at Walmart, but only after he pays his local taxes, his local employees, his rent, etc. Also, that local Walmart has to hire people locally, etc. So, while 'buying local' isn't an hermetically sealed process, it does slow the distance the dollar moves.

For my part, I'm an internationalist by virtue of my occupation. I don't believe in protectionism, I believe in the idea that balances are best. (Except when it comes to Empire vs. Rebel. See link in sig for details.) If Germany and China weren't running such trade surpluses, Greece and the US wouldn't have such problems. (The single or pegs in the currency don't help with this either.) I do think that this is also true at the domestic level, especially because you don't have different floating currencies within the country. We just mask it by a lack of explicit data and and federal transfers.

I'm a bit selfish in that I do want my locality to flourish, and in terms of gaming, I have many reasons to be happy. I do think that the Portlandian "buy local" ethos that you see in the arguments we've been having here help maintain that positive gaming community.

On another note:

I have netflix and have heard of a show called Portlandia. I'd never watched it before for whatever reason and none in particular. However, after talking with you, beatty and lyraeus here, I decided to give it a watch to see what it was like. Quite amusing, but probably not going to keep watching it as the format just isn't my thing. I often wondered if you guys saw it and were also a bit "different" in ways they are spoofing. The first episode had the 2 at a local restaurant where the waitress had a "file" on the chicken they were about to order...where it was raised, it's name, what it was fed and how 'organice' it was... lol! . Got a kick out of the first episode and what the shows creators were spoofing and yet it's clear they also like those aspects about Portland. The girl, 1 of the shows creators, carrie brownstein, even lives there.

Have you watched it and while clearly satire, are there things in the show that speak truth to what it's like there?

Yes, we've all watched it! I also once saw them being interviewed at a local theater.

Yes, they're spoofing it, but - as you can tell - not in terms of negative ridicule. While it's not that extreme, there's definitely truth in the fiction. I've lived a fair amount of places in my life, and I arrived here the year that Portlandia first aired (4 years ago). Comparing Portland to other places, I have to say - with just a little exaggeration - that this place is like a real-world Shangri-La. It's absolutely awesome and I never want to move away.

In terms of gaming, this place also has it going on. As we've been saying, our FLGSs are awesome and are worthy of our "buy local" zeal. It's not just that we feel good about buying local, these stores also sustain our community and give us a place to gather and play our games.

We've got an awesome Organized Play scene thanks to these stores. In terms of X-Wing, our 4 Store Championships would each have rivaled any of the ones happening in New York City last year, and 2 of them (each alone) had more participants than all of the Store Championships on NYC combined. I get this from a participant in those, who also recently moved here. He tells me that gaming in Portland is so much more than the NYC and Connecticut where he recently came from. In terms of Armada, we've already had two store-sponsored tournaments this month, and will probably have another before the month is over.

So, I do attribute all this to Portlandia culture, and "buy local" is a big part of that.

The most we can do is buy there or not, and deal with the effect that decision has, if any. Because if your LGS closed because no one is shopping there, then that is as much your fault as anyone else's. It's a bit like voting... If you don't vote you don't get to complain about the government.

However that doesn't mean every or even many stores that do close have done so because of selfish people buying online, they may close because the customer base in that area is too small to support the store, it is after all a niche market. Or maybe the owner just doesn't have a clue, in which case maybe someone who does will open one up.

I can't like this post enough. Bravo, sir. Stephen Colbert approves!

"You see that toy that other store is selling at 15$? I can sell you one too at 15$ and I will even lets you use my tables (so other customers can see it played and kinda gives me free advertising), but only if you first buy 10 of them at 20$. Sound like a deal right?"

Table space isn't free. You pay for square footage. If a store is dedicating space for playing tables, they are giving up space that could be used to merchandise other products that directly make money instead of hoping that the space will generate sales.

Than charge for these table spaces. Allowing something for free in hope people will give you money is very bad business. Just like if a themed park were giving free access to rollercoasters while hoping people would buy enough drink and pop-corns to make up for the cost of rollercoasters. Good luck.

Well I did let Andre push me some but he is bordering on full Troll here and that is why I will not engage him or read his posts. He is purposely turning this discussion into an argument by taking the most extreme examples as his base then selectivity taking other posts out of context. On top of this he does not directly answer any questions others give to him and instead deflects them by again taking what you said and twisting it.

He is not interested in adding anything to the full discussion and just wants to Win and is doing way more than playing Devils Advocate. His usage of charged words is also used to provoke raw emotions in others that do not need to be used.

Now I am not perfect at all and can let some get to me and I may fall into their trap of escalating the war of words. So I admit I did go too far in some of my posts as a retort to his aggressive style of argument.

You are way more diplomatic then him Reiryc and I respect that but I have no interest in engaging in someone like him.

I get what you're feeling brother beatty... I think there is another poster earlier in this thread who was like that. I used to be much less diplomatic when I would post on forums. I had been on political forums for over a decade. Point, counter point, frame the argument in ways that fly below the moderators/boards rules but clearly trading insults with other posters and so on. It was a game of "gotcha" and dueling google posts between one side and the other. Who could google up the most supportive news articles or studies from a reasonably respected news source and so on would get temporary 'wins'.

Then my mom passed away unexpectedly and I had a good look at what I was and wasn't doing in my life. In the online world, I gave up such posting and haven't looked back for going on 6 years now. I'm happier, less frustrated, if less informed than I used to be. I still read news articles with that critical eye, but I don't let these things get to me like they once did.

I board game more than I used to and expanded my interests. I learned how to sail last fall/late summer. Great experience and will try to continue with that. Anyways, point is, try not to let the posts get to you. You don't have to ignore threads or posters, just looking at something like it is less personal or a grudge match and more like, "what evah!" It's helped me a lot.

Well I deal do deal with issue I do not post here in my real life but I am going to try harder not to let people get to me. As you were saying, it's not worth it.

On the note of Portland when I moved here I thought I was very left leaning because where I moved from was Very conservative. Well after getting here I realized I am more centralist than Left Wing and find Portlandia funny because I do see people like them. Spoofed, yes but not as much as you would expect. But at least those people are more funny and ridiculous than threatening.

I would suspect if you came to out local game stores you will fall in love with the Geek Community out here. It's pretty large and the vast majority of players are great guys.

I bet I'd love to play some armada or imperial assault with you guys out there... would be pretty fun!

Sounds like you guys have a good group of gamers. There is a good group here too, but a little less extroverted I think than what I had seen in other places I've lived. It's not bad, just different.

I find it amusing that you ended up confirming my suspicions about portland based on Portlandia. Definitely tongue in cheek show, but not as much as one might thing... too funny!

I currently work for a great local grocery store, even though I have my BS (I know, but I will correct that. Life you know. But because of my store's fantastic Health Insurance I saved over $75,000 last year on my son's surgery on his ear. It has paid off.), but If I hear one more pseudoscience explanation about Gluten I am going to scream. I am really hating people who think they are an expert when they read one article even though I went through Years of college that touched on that very topic.

But I just smile and give them good service anyways.

Wait, so you're saying I shouldn't be gluten free all the time!!!!???11!?

*gasp*

Son's ear ok now or are there permanent problems? Hope he is doing well. I'd imagine that had to an emotional time for dad to see his kid go through such a major (assuming major due to cost) surgery.

Don't sweat where you work. I have a masters and I just work for a school district--not a teacher.

@VandorDM. Please go back and read through all my posts here. I have not always full stated my position but I have at a number of times mentioned those points. Just not all at once like I did in that last post.

I'm frankly done with this thread, I had hoped we could avoid things like name calling and the like but apparently not, and instead is veering sharply in the direction of SJW.

So once again I'll put in the bottom line for me.

The most we can do is buy there or not, and deal with the effect that decision has, if any. Because if your LGS closed because no one is shopping there, then that is as much your fault as anyone else's. It's a bit like voting... If you don't vote you don't get to complain about the government.

However that doesn't mean every or even many stores that do close have done so because of selfish people buying online, they may close because the customer base in that area is too small to support the store, it is after all a niche market. Or maybe the owner just doesn't have a clue, in which case maybe someone who does will open one up.

NOOoooo, don't leave!! It's just getting good again.

You identify something important. Not everyone lives in the gaming Shangri-La that us Portlanders do. However, as I said in my reply to Reiryc, we have this gaming Shangri-La for a reason, and I think that "buy local" ethos has a lot to do with it.

Now, I don't know how you transform an LGS wasteland into an FLGS Shangri-La, but identifying the best stores in your area/region and supporting them with your cash and helpful suggestions has to be a part of that. Obviously, there are locales where that transformation might never happen, but I think most of the people on this forum do live in places where it can happen, and if you're in an LGS wasteland because of a collective-action problem - and you don't like it - then it's on your shoulders to do something about it.

Well I did let Andre push me some but he is bordering on full Troll here and that is why I will not engage him or read his posts. He is purposely turning this discussion into an argument by taking the most extreme examples as his base then selectivity taking other posts out of context. On top of this he does not directly answer any questions others give to him and instead deflects them by again taking what you said and twisting it.

He is not interested in adding anything to the full discussion and just wants to Win and is doing way more than playing Devils Advocate. His usage of charged words is also used to provoke raw emotions in others that do not need to be used.

Now I am not perfect at all and can let some get to me and I may fall into their trap of escalating the war of words. So I admit I did go too far in some of my posts as a retort to his aggressive style of argument.

You are way more diplomatic then him Reiryc and I respect that but I have no interest in engaging in someone like him.

I get what you're feeling brother beatty... I think there is another poster earlier in this thread who was like that. I used to be much less diplomatic when I would post on forums. I had been on political forums for over a decade. Point, counter point, frame the argument in ways that fly below the moderators/boards rules but clearly trading insults with other posters and so on. It was a game of "gotcha" and dueling google posts between one side and the other. Who could google up the most supportive news articles or studies from a reasonably respected news source and so on would get temporary 'wins'.

Then my mom passed away unexpectedly and I had a good look at what I was and wasn't doing in my life. In the online world, I gave up such posting and haven't looked back for going on 6 years now. I'm happier, less frustrated, if less informed than I used to be. I still read news articles with that critical eye, but I don't let these things get to me like they once did.

I board game more than I used to and expanded my interests. I learned how to sail last fall/late summer. Great experience and will try to continue with that. Anyways, point is, try not to let the posts get to you. You don't have to ignore threads or posters, just looking at something like it is less personal or a grudge match and more like, "what evah!" It's helped me a lot.

Well I deal do deal with issue I do not post here in my real life but I am going to try harder not to let people get to me. As you were saying, it's not worth it.

On the note of Portland when I moved here I thought I was very left leaning because where I moved from was Very conservative. Well after getting here I realized I am more centralist than Left Wing and find Portlandia funny because I do see people like them. Spoofed, yes but not as much as you would expect. But at least those people are more funny and ridiculous than threatening.

I would suspect if you came to out local game stores you will fall in love with the Geek Community out here. It's pretty large and the vast majority of players are great guys.

I bet I'd love to play some armada or imperial assault with you guys out there... would be pretty fun!

Sounds like you guys have a good group of gamers. There is a good group here too, but a little less extroverted I think than what I had seen in other places I've lived. It's not bad, just different.

I find it amusing that you ended up confirming my suspicions about portland based on Portlandia. Definitely tongue in cheek show, but not as much as one might thing... too funny!

I currently work for a great local grocery store, even though I have my BS (I know, but I will correct that. Life you know. But because of my store's fantastic Health Insurance I saved over $75,000 last year on my son's surgery on his ear. It has paid off.), but If I hear one more pseudoscience explanation about Gluten I am going to scream. I am really hating people who think they are an expert when they read one article even though I went through Years of college that touched on that very topic.

But I just smile and give them good service anyways.

Wait, so you're saying I shouldn't be gluten free all the time!!!!???11!?

*gasp*

Son's ear ok now or are there permanent problems? Hope he is doing well. I'd imagine that had to an emotional time for dad to see his kid go through such a major (assuming major due to cost) surgery.

Don't sweat where you work. I have a masters and I just work for a school district--not a teacher.

He had two Surgeries and if they didn't do them he would have ended up deaf in his left ear and his left side of the face would be mostly paralyzed. But he took it like a real champ and hopefully won't have to wear his hearing aid in another year after the healing is done. I hope.

@VandorDM. Please go back and read through all my posts here. I have not always full stated my position but I have at a number of times mentioned those points. Just not all at once like I did in that last post.

I'm glad that the surgies were a success. Hopefully the healing process will go as planned and he can be hearing aid free!

Yes, the local shop owner may buy at Walmart, but only after he pays his local taxes, his local employees, his rent, etc. Also, that local Walmart has to hire people locally, etc. So, while 'buying local' isn't an hermetically sealed process, it does slow the distance the dollar moves.

For my part, I'm an internationalist by virtue of my occupation. I don't believe in protectionism, I believe in the idea that balances are best. (Except when it comes to Empire vs. Rebel. See link in sig for details.) If Germany and China weren't running such trade surpluses, Greece and the US wouldn't have such problems. (The single or pegs in the currency don't help with this either.) I do think that this is also true at the domestic level, especially because you don't have different floating currencies within the country. We just mask it by a lack of explicit data and and federal transfers.

I'm a bit selfish in that I do want my locality to flourish, and in terms of gaming, I have many reasons to be happy. I do think that the Portlandian "buy local" ethos that you see in the arguments we've been having here help maintain that positive gaming community.

I have to be honest, I could give a rat's patootie what the gubbamint gets... I'm ok if daddy doesn't get a cut of my money. With that said, on that topic I'll let you have last word as i'm going to avoid going any further down that rabbit hole.

I am curious if it's the buy local ethos or something else, such as the right mix of the right personalities at the right time that is making it such a good situation there.

Yes, we've all watched it! I also once saw them being interviewed at a local theater.

Yes, they're spoofing it, but - as you can tell - not in terms of negative ridicule. While it's not that extreme, there's definitely truth in the fiction. I've lived a fair amount of places in my life, and I arrived here the year that Portlandia first aired (4 years ago). Comparing Portland to other places, I have to say - with just a little exaggeration - that this place is like a real-world Shangri-La. It's absolutely awesome and I never want to move away.

Do you like it because the place matches your politics or something else?

i've lived in kansas for almost 9 years and am not liking it all that much. Mostly because I miss my chicago sports teams and the museums and such. I don't miss chicago politics though. Weather is a bit brutal in summer too... 95-105 with a truck ton of humidity to seal it all in. ugh!

We've got an awesome Organized Play scene thanks to these stores. In terms of X-Wing, our 4 Store Championships would each have rivaled any of the ones happening in New York City last year, and 2 of them (each alone) had more participants than all of the Store Championships on NYC combined. I get this from a participant in those, who also recently moved here. He tells me that gaming in Portland is so much more than the NYC and Connecticut where he recently came from. In terms of Armada, we've already had two store-sponsored tournaments this month, and will probably have another before the month is over.

That is amazing.... I'm not a tournament player myself, but I did go watch an xwing tournament about a month ago. The store was expecting 8 people based on facebook sign up. 20 showed up and it was a huge success... so it was nice to see that more showed up to play than they had expected. Kind of wish they would advertise and actively seek more opportunities to get people in the store and involved.

Portland politics works like this. We don't always agree, we discuss it shake our heads at each other then we find a common ground we agree on. Then we look at the rest of the country and go " Oh dear god, we are so screwed."

A left leaning area but many of the extreme left leaning policies never get through. Most tend to frown upon the extreme types.

Portland's biggest hypocrisy is that Portlanders tend to hate people who hate others for being different.

Than charge for these table spaces. Allowing something for free in hope people will give you money is very bad business. Just like if a themed park were giving free access to rollercoasters while hoping people would buy enough drink and pop-corns to make up for the cost of rollercoasters. Good luck.

Generally businesses give away the smaller things in order to make money on more expensive items, not the other way around. But I get what you are trying to say. There is a store that is struggling with this right now. He is a comic book store that had a handful of tables that he uses for Heroclix tourneys twice a week and D&D games once a week. These are literally the only two gaming products he carries because he has enough interest in them from his customers and they don't take up much space. He makes enough from those customer bases to justify it. Now he has some 40K players who want to utilize the space. The problems are 1) he doesn't stock any merch for 40K and 2) they want to run events beyond his typical operating hours (he's only open until 6 daily, except for Wednesdays). He toyed with the idea of charging them, but how much? Does he charge per player or for the group? He ended up giving them 3 weeks trial. In the end, he nixed the idea because he was paying his part-timer to be there for 3 extra hours and these players weren't buying anything.

@VandorDM. Please go back and read through all my posts here.

Maybe a miscommunication on my part. But I consider you to be one of the more level headed people in this debate. Your posts have always come off as "Here's how it is for me, but I know not everyone else is as lucky, so do what you can with what you have."

If you took what I said as a charge against you then there was a misunderstanding.

I've never seen you apply a black and white stance to this argument, you along with a few others truly seem to get that not everyone's situation is the same and we should act accordingly.

and I think that "buy local" ethos has a lot to do with it.

To be honest, I wonder if that isn't a bit of a chicken and the egg quandary. It's easy to have a "buy local" ethos when your local market is customer friendly. But on the other hand I could see that it becomes that way because people do buy local and support the good merchants.

No doubt that your situation changes your perspective. For me I'm very lucky to even have a LGS, and frankly a bit part of the reason the owner runs it is because he's a gamer and wants a place to play. So I'm pretty good about supporting it, because without that store, my options would be an hour + drive to the next nearest store, or get few if any games in at all.

But prior to that store opening, I would of bought everything online, because paying retail, plus gas for a 2 hour round trip, at a place I'd never play... I'd honestly like to see someone try and tell me I'm selfish for buying online if that was my situation.

I am curious if it's the buy local ethos or something else, such as the right mix of the right personalities at the right time that is making it such a good situation there.

The right mix of individual personalities really can't explain what we have. If it was just one awesome store, that would be one thing, but we've got four FLGSs that actively host FFG's Star Wars games. If they weren't doing so as successfully as they are, I think that some of the other FLGSs would step into the breach. I know of one located close to where I work (a university), that did host an X-Wing tournament, but it's not been regular about it, and mostly due to a fellow who now helps our central store set up tournaments.

So, in other words, it's too pervasive to ascribe to a mix of personalities at the individual level. This is structural, and while I am not generally a culturalist when it comes to social-science explanations, I do think it works in this case. I would also say that a lack of a sales tax helps, but the store just north of us in Vancouver, WA (with sales tax) is also a thriving FLGS - maybe even the most energetic of all of our FFG/SW-supporting stores.

Yes, we've all watched it! I also once saw them being interviewed at a local theater.

Yes, they're spoofing it, but - as you can tell - not in terms of negative ridicule. While it's not that extreme, there's definitely truth in the fiction. I've lived a fair amount of places in my life, and I arrived here the year that Portlandia first aired (4 years ago). Comparing Portland to other places, I have to say - with just a little exaggeration - that this place is like a real-world Shangri-La. It's absolutely awesome and I never want to move away.

Do you like it because the place matches your politics or something else?

i've lived in kansas for almost 9 years and am not liking it all that much. Mostly because I miss my chicago sports teams and the museums and such. I don't miss chicago politics though. Weather is a bit brutal in summer too... 95-105 with a truck ton of humidity to seal it all in. ugh!

Yes, that is a large part of why I like it. But, let me qualify what I am saying, because politics is a very divisive thing in our society right now. I have no qualms about living alongside people who have different political opinions than I do. My (divorced) parents are an extreme pair. My father is a Christian-esque anarchist and my mother is a communist. (They divorced long before they became political, long story, not worth it). So, I've grown up on different sides of our social-political divide, and I understand where people are coming from. In the middle of this, I developed into a fairly mainstream social democrat. (No, not a socialist)

I like Portland not so much because it includes people who believe as I do, but because it seems to be a society that works. Beatty probably is better at explaining it, because I've stayed out of local politics out of self-defense. (I used to be very politically active and it nearly ruined my life.) But it looks to me like the major political divide is between lefter-than-thou utopians and your standard blue-collar democrats. At the same time, I can throw a rock in two directions and hit a bible school. There are also some very conservative people in our gaming community, and politics is not something that comes up in our conversations.

Regarding Chicago, I've obviously heard stories about the machine politics there. I've operated in a political community (San Antonio, TX) where the machine was presumed, but it wasn't as powerful as it was thought, and the politics within the Democratic party were hopelessly fractured (circular firing-squad style). At the time, I was envious of machine politics, but Chicago reportedly has too much.

We've got an awesome Organized Play scene thanks to these stores. In terms of X-Wing, our 4 Store Championships would each have rivaled any of the ones happening in New York City last year, and 2 of them (each alone) had more participants than all of the Store Championships on NYC combined. I get this from a participant in those, who also recently moved here. He tells me that gaming in Portland is so much more than the NYC and Connecticut where he recently came from. In terms of Armada, we've already had two store-sponsored tournaments this month, and will probably have another before the month is over.

That is amazing.... I'm not a tournament player myself, but I did go watch an xwing tournament about a month ago. The store was expecting 8 people based on facebook sign up. 20 showed up and it was a huge success... so it was nice to see that more showed up to play than they had expected. Kind of wish they would advertise and actively seek more opportunities to get people in the store and involved.

It's probably the case that your location has much more potential than is currently being exploited. Maybe you should open an FLGS and show 'em how it's done.

and I think that "buy local" ethos has a lot to do with it.

To be honest, I wonder if that isn't a bit of a chicken and the egg quandary. It's easy to have a "buy local" ethos when your local market is customer friendly. But on the other hand I could see that it becomes that way because people do buy local and support the good merchants.

No doubt that your situation changes your perspective. For me I'm very lucky to even have a LGS, and frankly a bit part of the reason the owner runs it is because he's a gamer and wants a place to play. So I'm pretty good about supporting it, because without that store, my options would be an hour + drive to the next nearest store, or get few if any games in at all.

But prior to that store opening, I would of bought everything online, because paying retail, plus gas for a 2 hour round trip, at a place I'd never play... I'd honestly like to see someone try and tell me I'm selfish for buying online if that was my situation.

Yes, it is absolutely a chicken-and-egg system, but at some point someone takes leadership and introduces either an egg or a chicken into the system. Lewis and Clark didn't arrive here in November of 1806 and stop in at Guardian Games to pick up an ironic copy Settlers of Catan from the Multnomah indians who lived here.

It sounds like the owner of your LGS has taken that leadership. Is he a good businessman? Has he turned the corner from being an LGS into an FLGS? What might it take to turn that corner if he hasn't?

In short, how do you create a supportive community, if not by spreading the buy-local/support-your-FLGS ethos that we're talking about here?

To be honest, I wonder if that isn't a bit of a chicken and the egg quandary. It's easy to have a "buy local" ethos when your local market is customer friendly. But on the other hand I could see that it becomes that way because people do buy local and support the good merchants.

No doubt that your situation changes your perspective. For me I'm very lucky to even have a LGS, and frankly a bit part of the reason the owner runs it is because he's a gamer and wants a place to play. So I'm pretty good about supporting it, because without that store, my options would be an hour + drive to the next nearest store, or get few if any games in at all.

But prior to that store opening, I would of bought everything online, because paying retail, plus gas for a 2 hour round trip, at a place I'd never play... I'd honestly like to see someone try and tell me I'm selfish for buying online if that was my situation.

Everyone's situation is absolutely different, and sometimes circumstances dictate our actions. I am a huge believer in supporting local businesses that, and here's the kicker, show me the value in buying from them. I am luck to have several LGS in my area to choose from. With that said, the bulk of my Armada purchases for wave 1 are from Cool Stuff Inc. I sold a huge chunk of my Heroclix collection to them and they give you a bonus 25% to any money that you leave with them as store credit. The combination of their already lower price combined with the bonus 25% meant that I was essentially getting 50% off. That is a deal too good to pass up. I love my FLGS, but they can't match that and I couldn't ask them to. With that said, I did still buy a starter from them at full retail because I have had to wait until today for shipping of my CSI order. And I will supplement my initial purchase with them as well. And each time I go into play there (usually once a week) I buy something else- another X-Wing ship, extra dice, custom tokens- he even got me to try out Legendary Encounters and I ended up dropping $60 on the spot because it is an AMAZING game!

I hope to stick around too, because you, sir, get it. Online isn't evil, but if you have a store locally that you like and want to see succeed because they give you a little something more, be willing to spend a few extra dollars there.

This is structural, and while I am not generally a culturalist when it comes to social-science explanations, I do think it works in this case. I would also say that a lack of a sales tax helps, but the store just north of us in Vancouver, WA (with sales tax) is also a thriving FLGS - maybe even the most energetic of all of our FFG/SW-supporting stores.

Structural how?

I can't say I haven't lived in a town where the mantra isn't "buy local"... I don't see something like that as unique to portland, do you?

and I think that "buy local" ethos has a lot to do with it.

To be honest, I wonder if that isn't a bit of a chicken and the egg quandary. It's easy to have a "buy local" ethos when your local market is customer friendly. But on the other hand I could see that it becomes that way because people do buy local and support the good merchants.

No doubt that your situation changes your perspective. For me I'm very lucky to even have a LGS, and frankly a bit part of the reason the owner runs it is because he's a gamer and wants a place to play. So I'm pretty good about supporting it, because without that store, my options would be an hour + drive to the next nearest store, or get few if any games in at all.

But prior to that store opening, I would of bought everything online, because paying retail, plus gas for a 2 hour round trip, at a place I'd never play... I'd honestly like to see someone try and tell me I'm selfish for buying online if that was my situation.

Yes, it is absolutely a chicken-and-egg system, but at some point someone takes leadership and introduces either an egg or a chicken into the system. Lewis and Clark didn't arrive here in November of 1806 and stop in at Guardian Games to pick up an ironic copy Settlers of Catan from the Multnomah indians who lived here.

It sounds like the owner of your LGS has taken that leadership. Is he a good businessman? Has he turned the corner from being an LGS into an FLGS? What might it take to turn that corner if he hasn't?

In short, how do you create a supportive community, if not by spreading the buy-local/support-your-FLGS ethos that we're talking about here?

Well i'd assume that there would need to be a large enough interest for that FLGS to be able to build something.

I can assure you, regardless of a socialist did to try to get me to 'hang out' and build community by going to socialist events, I have zero interest in socialism, so I wouldn't go. Point I am making? Without an initial interest in the topic at hand, whether it's xwing or socialism R Us fun day, without said interest, few will come regardless of how well it's promoted.

I know serveral people who enjoy gaming, but don't want to do it at any of the local stores. The reasons they have given have been: don't have to pack things up and haul them around, can eat at home, not dependent on store hours, more comfortable at home. So in cases like these, I'm not sure that without that individual personality type that is willing to go to the store to play or has interest in what the store is offering as far as game support goes, will make much difference to these people.

I know serveral people who enjoy gaming, but don't want to do it at any of the local stores. The reasons they have given have been: don't have to pack things up and haul them around, can eat at home, not dependent on store hours, more comfortable at home. So in cases like these, I'm not sure that without that individual personality type that is willing to go to the store to play or has interest in what the store is offering as far as game support goes, will make much difference to these people.

For these types, absolutely go online. My POV is that if you are going to attend game nights, tournaments and such at local venues, you should buy from those local venues. They are putting forth an effort to earn your business by giving you more options to play those games against new people. If all you are getting out of your purchase is the product, find the best price.

To give everyone a bit of background on Guardian Games (my favorite FLGS hands down) here is a link to their About Us page for their website. http://www.ggportland.com/community/about-us/

Now my only issue with this discussion is that people are not reading posts that have significant information on what it takes to really run a gaming store (or collectible store in Sir Not's position). This is important to know. That information gives you a good perspective of what it really takes

This is structural, and while I am not generally a culturalist when it comes to social-science explanations, I do think it works in this case. I would also say that a lack of a sales tax helps, but the store just north of us in Vancouver, WA (with sales tax) is also a thriving FLGS - maybe even the most energetic of all of our FFG/SW-supporting stores.

Structural how?

I can't say I haven't lived in a town where the mantra isn't "buy local"... I don't see something like that as unique to portland, do you?

By structural, I mean that it's not just due to the ephemera of individual personalities.

Mantra and culture aren't the same. Some groups of people may say one thing and do another. I also say cultural as opposed to economic. It's not like Portland is particularly wealthy. Many of our gamers are young people who live paycheck-to-paycheck like anywhere else. Here at the FLGS they have a place to hang out, and they probably feel a bit of pressure to spend part of their paycheck at the local store, rather than buying online, even if this could save them money. It might also work in reverse: online is great for the bulk purchases that these kids can't afford, because they can't get over the free-shipping threshold.

But, still, I do think it's more than economic imperative.

There's also probably more to it than just people acting on their stated preferences. I suspect (and maybe my fellow Portlanders can shed light on it), but there's probably also something in the local codes and ordinances that make it harder for chain stores to open up here. It's not just the mom&pop FLGS that does well. It's also evident in the restaurants and other stores. It's not that we don't have the standard strip malls that other parts of America have, but they're much less prevalent here.

So, I suspect that it's about customers in action, but also about those preferences being instituted in local commercial rules.

But I would say that our local politics appease our local cultural preference for what seems to us to be a more wholesome pattern of commerce (ie. mom&pop vs. chain-store strip malls).

To give everyone a bit of background on Guardian Games (my favorite FLGS hands down) here is a link to their About Us page for their website. http://www.ggportland.com/community/about-us/

Now my only issue with this discussion is that people are not reading posts that have significant information on what it takes to really run a gaming store (or collectible store in Sir Not's position). This is important to know. That information gives you a good perspective of what it really takes

Seems like an awesome place! I like that they serve beer and wine too, plus video games! I'm a computer gamer, but appreciate that angel can see that game stores should sell all kinds of games if possible, not just card and board

Well i'd assume that there would need to be a large enough interest for that FLGS to be able to build something.

I can assure you, regardless of a socialist did to try to get me to 'hang out' and build community by going to socialist events, I have zero interest in socialism, so I wouldn't go. Point I am making? Without an initial interest in the topic at hand, whether it's xwing or socialism R Us fun day, without said interest, few will come regardless of how well it's promoted.

I know serveral people who enjoy gaming, but don't want to do it at any of the local stores. The reasons they have given have been: don't have to pack things up and haul them around, can eat at home, not dependent on store hours, more comfortable at home. So in cases like these, I'm not sure that without that individual personality type that is willing to go to the store to play or has interest in what the store is offering as far as game support goes, will make much difference to these people.

Yes, I see what you're saying. I don't think we're meaning something different, we're just at odds over the words used. What you call "mix of personalities" I call "culture".

When I think mix of personalities, I think of the unbiased variation of individuals' unique personalities. Every group of people is going to have its share of crazies and "normals". There's probably also an average gamers-per-1000 people. I call it culture when a local group has a belief system and set of habits that make it deviate from the country-wide or global average as a group.

The thing about culture is that it's expressed in learned and mimicked behavior. People become gamers if they see other people playing games and having fun with it. The more gamers you have, the greater share of the population is probably going to also feel attracted to gaming. The same goes for values of buying local, being socialist, or going to church, etc.

I am pretty much said what I am going to say on this topic so I'll leave with this. I can see the extremes of both sides of this and nether of them are good.

On one extreme we have the "you must buy everything here to play here", he makes it hostile towards the "selfish ingrates" (what he may call the people that play at his store) thus driving away potential new business thus being a detriment to his own cause.

On the other side you have the "stingy penny pincher" who actually goes to the store and finds it his mission to brag about the best deal, again another kind of hostile everyone is "idiots for paying MSRP", this also causes lost business (much to this a holes glee).

Most people in this thread are not any of these (thankfully) but they do exist and as long as we "agree to disagree" on some of the finer points and don't become one of the above, I think it will all be ok. Thank you and good gaming!

This is structural, and while I am not generally a culturalist when it comes to social-science explanations, I do think it works in this case. I would also say that a lack of a sales tax helps, but the store just north of us in Vancouver, WA (with sales tax) is also a thriving FLGS - maybe even the most energetic of all of our FFG/SW-supporting stores.

Structural how?

I can't say I haven't lived in a town where the mantra isn't "buy local"... I don't see something like that as unique to portland, do you?

By structural, I mean that it's not just due to the ephemera of individual personalities.

Mantra and culture aren't the same. Some groups of people may say one thing and do another. I also say cultural as opposed to economic. It's not like Portland is particularly wealthy. Many of our gamers are young people who live paycheck-to-paycheck like anywhere else. Here at the FLGS they have a place to hang out, and they probably feel a bit of pressure to spend part of their paycheck at the local store, rather than buying online, even if this could save them money. It might also work in reverse: online is great for the bulk purchases that these kids can't afford, because they can't get over the free-shipping threshold.

But, still, I do think it's more than economic imperative.

There's also probably more to it than just people acting on their stated preferences. I suspect (and maybe my fellow Portlanders can shed light on it), but there's probably also something in the local codes and ordinances that make it harder for chain stores to open up here. It's not just the mom&pop FLGS that does well. It's also evident in the restaurants and other stores. It's not that we don't have the standard strip malls that other parts of America have, but they're much less prevalent here.

So, I suspect that it's about customers in action, but also about those preferences being instituted in local commercial rules.

But I would say that our local politics appease our local cultural preference for what seems to us to be a more wholesome pattern of commerce (ie. mom&pop vs. chain-store strip malls).

Makes sense....

Can't say I'm a fan of 'semi forced wholesomeness', but glad it's working for you guys.

That guardian games place looks really nice.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hero-Complex-Games-and-Entertainment/147406635324060

The store that I occasionally go to for odds and ends is there. If you scroll down to April 11 and look at a picture of imperial assault being played by someone with a grey and black shirt, that's me and my double chin (where the heck did that come from??).

As far as I know, all they have is a Facebook page and no regular website.

Buying online to save a few bucks when you could be supporting a local community is selfish. If you're ok with that deal with it.

If it actually were just a few bucks, that would be one thing. But we're talking 30% here. That's paying almost 50% more for things.

And?

We all make thousands of dollars a year. Generally tens of thousands.

That leaves a few hundred a month to spend on passtimes for those of us that are employed full time and have disposable income.

Saving 30% by sending that money to a retailer somewhere else cuts money from other places. (And you can call it 50% more if you want. That's just twisting statistics.)

Call it twisting statistics if you want, but it's true. If something is priced at $99, and you buy it for $66, that's a 33% discount. It also means that you spending $66 at one place and spending $99 at another is a 50% increase. I know it sounds crazy, but that's how math works.

Your $100 order to miniatures market is a drop in the bucket. Your $100 dollars at the game store gives you less physical product, but everyone else more.

My $200 order to MM is a drop in their bucket, true. And if, instead, I spent $300 at LGS to get the exact same thing, they'd certainly be happy. However, I'm out an extra $100 for nothing. I can take my whole family to dinner and a movie for $100. That goes to my community also. If you have that kind of cash to throw away, more power to you, but I'd rather make my wife and kids happy instead of some people I don't know.

Net benefit the game store is better, the community within is better, and you get to make people smile. And you're making it so you have a place to play your games.

I don't understand how my purchasing games for full price at the LGS pays my mortgage, or the mortgage of my friends. Because that's where I play my games. I own a table. It keeps things off the floor. It's nice.

I don't understand why I am supposed to spend a 50% premium on my games because other people don't own a table of their own.

If other people want to pay that kind of premium for their games to support other people that don't own tables, or perhaps they don't own one, that's their business.

Makes sense....

Can't say I'm a fan of 'semi forced wholesomeness', but glad it's working for you guys.

That guardian games place looks really nice.

But here it is - it isn't forced at all. You can go into our stores and play with your online-purchased core/expansions and no one will be the wiser. The store owner probably doesn't have the time/attention to keep track of who bought what where. She's just happy to see people in her store, and happier when people buy stuff. The fact that people who come in with their online-bought material feel a little guilty about it is because they've bought into the local Kool-Aid (the way that Beatty, Lyraeus, and I have).

Sure, we nudge that guilt a little bit, by mentioning how we're proud to buy at the store, and giving off a hint of disapproval when someone mentions that they've bought something online, but it's purely passive aggressive.

And, yes, Guardian Games is a really awesome place. I go there a lot - usually on Monday evenings. Occasionally, I'll buy paints and sleeves, and less occasionally a miniature. Mostly, my expenditures are in snacks and drinks. My slightly more favorite haunt is Red Castle Games. It's smaller, somewhat closer to me, and has pre-order and loyalty discount programs, and is open 'till midnight. It also has nicer miniature-gaming tables. It it overall better than Guardian Games? No, but Guardian Games has a larger clientele, is more accessible on public transit, and probably doesn't need me as much as Red Castle does.