If I was running a store I don't think I would charge to use tables. The traffic and community it generates would probably make me more money then charging for the table in the long run.
I would probably also only charge $79-85 for the Armada core set. At that price I am competing with amazon, making money, and it is a investment as I will have a easier time selling the expansions if I have more players.

Let it go, let it go...

Let it go, let it go...

You are right. After all I am sure the price my LGS is charging is no doubt working just fine for them. After all they have already sold ZERO of them as of today.

They could very well blame the selfish people willing to use amazon... but that is not changing that number from a big fat ZERO.

We need a "beating a dead horse" icon.

A little insight- I spent a year running a mom and pop collectibles store. The store had been around for 3 years prior to my coming on and as well as I did there- they were never more profitable- I could not overcome the financial burdens that had accumulated over the prior three years. The owner and previous managers just made too many mistakes and we had to close it down. With that said, there are some realities when it comes to pricing.

Cash flow is king to a small business. One of the biggest problem the previous regime had was they were sitting on a HUGE stockpile of very expensive merchandise (Sideshow, WETA, Gentle Giant, Master Replicas). The problem is that while big ticket items look great when they sell, they eat up a lot of capital and take time to sell. Take Sideshow, for example. A Premium Format figure has a retail cost of $299.99. My cost was $199.99. Then I had to pay for shipping on each piece- on average $25 per piece. No now I am stuck sitting on $225 in costs in order to make a $75 profit. And that piece would sit there for a while. When it did sell, if they used a credit card, there went another 3%. Now my profits were down to $66. If I had to list it on eBay or Amazon in order to move it, I had to compete price-wise, which meant knocking at least $10 off of my asking price (MSRP) then the e-tailor took their 15% cut. In the end, those types of transactions ended up netting a $26 profit off of a $225 cost. I call it profit, but it really isn’t. $26 didn’t even cover my salary for the amount of time that I’d spend getting to that point, let alone any other overhead that it would incur. The owner never saw a penny of those transactions once all costs were factored in. I still remember when I called the Sideshow rep when I took over and found out that we had bought 13 of the T-800 statues but had only pre-sold 2. I cancelled 9 of them and used the $1800 to restock higher margin and less expensive items that I was able to turn over much more quickly. That $1800 ended up netting me around $1500 in profit as opposed to the $600 I would have made on the statues and it had a much faster turnaround- which meant I could restock and bring in newer items that would sell more quickly.

Overhead matters. Retail space costs almost double what warehouse space does and holds less product. Retailors have to have much more staff than a warehouse does as well, unless floor coverage means nothing to an owner. More payroll means more payroll taxes and higher insurance premiums. In the case of a gaming store, they dedicate a percentage of that floor space to allow games to be played- it is their marketing. They get little to no help from the manufacturers when it comes to external marketing. Games sell better when people can see them being played. But it is still a sunk cost- space that is paid for and has no expectation of making any money from it (the space that makes the money is where the product is merchandised). Now add in the costs of running a tournament: paying an employee to run events or compensating a volunteer to run it either in the form of product or discounts, later hours, extra utility costs, etc… All for the hope of recovering those sunk costs in the form of higher sales.

Reach means a lot. My store had a very user-friendly website and point-of-sale. It wasn’t enough. The owner paid out of his nose for this system and website so that everything was integrated. The problem was that we had to drive traffic there. That means advertising. No amount of advertising in the world would bring the level of name recognition or traffic that Amazon has. Or eBay. Or even CSI. Or Miniatures Market. You get the idea. I sold Heroclix in the store and would get people consistently asking if I could match online pricing. There was no way I could. My cost on a case was about $130 and there were ebay sales that were $140 with free shipping! Again, that slim of a margin doesn’t even cover my expenses associated with ordering/receiving. Was I willing to offer discounts? It depended. Were they a regular customer? Were they buying anything other than the one item that they were asking for a discount on? If someone came in off of the street and asked, the answer was probably no. If this was someone that has bought from me in the past and I knew was good for other sales, sure I’d provide some discount. If this was a regular customer that spent a lot of money with me, they could get a very nice discount but it was never as much as was online. I had a nut to cover. But could I drop 15-20%? Yep.

Conventions were always very curious for me as well. I used them to clear dead stock more than anything else- remember cash flow is king. I always had a pricing strategy- make enough profit to cover my show nut (Usually my costs associated with a show were around $3500), pay for the product that was moved out and make a few $$ extra to pay down some bills. Inevitably someone would ask for a break on something, despite knowing that the price I was asking was a darn good price (If it wasn’t, they wouldn’t have stopped in the first place). I’d decline a discount and they’d leave only to return an hour later to find that the item sold to someone who recognized the value. Now I did have some customers who did it right at these shows; one customer in particular bought $650 in merchandise, no questions asked. After all was said and done, he noticed a $25 item and asked if he could get a deal… I said sure and handed it to him. THAT is how you ask for a discount.

Scale matters. Amazon can afford to sell their products for less for several reasons. 1) They get a better price on their product because they can buy in volume. They have the capital to buy 100,000 copies of Armada. As a result, FFG will give them a break and instead of paying $50 + shipping, they may only pay $40. Most shops can’t afford to buy enough to get any significant break. 2) Amazon has a much more diverse portfolio of products, which leads to a wider customer demographic. Even the larger game retailers have the capital and space to stock a larger array of products. This means more cash flow. Smaller shops don’t have that luxury. They have to carefully choose their products and quantities because… 3) Amazon can afford to sit on unsold merchandise for a lot longer than a mom and pop can. They have millions of customers and millions of products to buy. They have enough cash to be able to let items sit unsold for months in a warehouse until it sells or they liquidate it. Most local stores can’t. They need to move product to make floor space and funds for the next hotness that comes along. Many small businesses fail, not for lack of customers, but for lack of cash flow. They end up with tens of thousands of dollars in stock that just sits unsold on their walls.

With all that said, I always find it curious why we in the fan community (be it table-top gamers, comics enthusiasts, etc…) feel like haggling needs to be done? Why do we feel MSRP is such a rip-off? You don’t see video-gamers haggling at their local game-stop to drop 30% off of Arkham Knights. I’ve never seen anyone trying to haggle over the price of popcorn at a movie theater (you want to talk about a rip-off?). No one offers $5 for a $6 value meal at McDonalds. It’s only the mom-n-pop shops that have to deal with this phenomenon, and they are the ones who can least afford to take less for their product because of their scale.

With all that being said, neither side is wholly right or wrong. I have made some bulk purchases online myself, because with the size of my order, the discount adds up. All in all, however, I have spent much more money in the stores that I frequent on product over the years than I have online. But I also endeavor to buy something of value every time I go somewhere to play. I don’t just grab sleeves or a pop. I may buy a new ship, a graphic novel- something of substance. I’ve been talked into new games and bought them on the spot as well. I look at it like this: What is my entertainment worth? When I buy the game pieces, what am I buying? Am I just buying the pieces and looking to get nothing more out of them other than the experience of playing in my home or with my friends or am I looking for a more communal experience? Is the amount of time I will spend in my FLGS worth paying more for the product? Considering I just spent $11 to see The Avengers in the theater, I find that $5 per hour is fair for me (personally, not saying you should see the same value). If I pay an extra $35 for an Armada starter at my FLGS, will they give me at least 7 hours of additional entertainment? For me, the answer is yes. It won’t be the same for everyone.

TL;DR- You can’t compare your small FLGS to big box retailers, the small shops can’t compete price-wise. They are two different beasts. You have to decide for yourself what your entertainment time is worth.

here is a reasonable solution:

when you play at the store buy at the store.
I play X-wings on Thursdays at a LGS...I always buy something...even if you don't NEED anything grab a pack of sleeves or a new $20 board or card game...show the store that their existence is important to you. you can still do the heavily discounted BIG purchases online but maybe instead of getting that new booster of ships for $15 you buy it for $20 at your LGS.

if this is still a problem for you then you need to look at what your priorities are: buying ships or playing the game at a store.

Sir Not. . . For this one post. . . You are my hero.

Nostalgia is a factor. For instance, Robotech Tactics FINALLY released (I wasamkickstarter backer) but because they did it right, and it reminds me of my awe and aspirations of my youth, I will GLADLY pay the 100 for that and you get so much less than what Aramada offers. Armada is also a nostalgic thing that creates feelings of joy wonderment. To feel such things and get such a wonderful product. That alone is worth it to me.

A Premium Format figure has a retail cost of $299.99. My cost was $199.99. Then I had to pay for shipping on each piece- on average $25 per piece. No now I am stuck sitting on $225 in costs in order to make a $75 profit. And that piece would sit there for a while. When it did sell, if they used a credit card, there went another 3%. Now my profits were down to $66. If I had to list it on eBay or Amazon in order to move it, I had to compete price-wise, which meant knocking at least $10 off of my asking price (MSRP) then the e-tailor took their 15% cut. In the end, those types of transactions ended up netting a $26 profit off of a $225 cost. I call it profit, but it really isn’t. $26 didn’t even cover my salary for the amount of time that I’d spend getting to that point, let alone any other overhead that it would incur. The owner never saw a penny of those transactions once all costs were factored in. I still remember when I called the Sideshow rep when I took over and found out that we had bought 13 of the T-800 statues but had only pre-sold 2. I cancelled 9 of them and used the $1800 to restock higher margin and less expensive items that I was able to turn over much more quickly. That $1800 ended up netting me around $1500 in profit as opposed to the $600 I would have made on the statues and it had a much faster turnaround- which meant I could restock and bring in newer items that would sell more quickly.

You can’t compare your small FLGS to big box retailers, the small shops can’t compete price-wise.

So base cost of $199.99

Retail cost of $299.99

You Charge $289.99

Your profit $26

Using a little fancy math here, Amazon tends to charge about a 15% markup. They can do this thanks to volume of sales. So chances are Amazon has this same item for same for about $229.99 Do we agree on that?

Your mark up is about 50%. That is a pretty standard industry average.

If you walk in to my store and offer me 249.99 .... why the hell would I EVER say no?

I can only think of two reasons.

1) I think in time the item will move and I don't mind the loss of shelve space tell that happens.

2) I am bad at my job.

"You can’t compare your small FLGS to big box retailers, the small shops can’t compete price-wise."

If you are a FLGS you can not afford to think like this.

Your math could not be more off. First of all, standard markup in retail is about 100% of wholesale. Now that's not 100% of cost- cost includes shipping. Sideshow is an exception. Secondly, at 249.99 it is not worth stocking the item. Why would I invest $225 (cost plus shipping to the store from the distributer) to make $25? Does that make ANY sort of business sense to you? I could make $25 selling three NECA action figures and my risk is only about $35 for them.

If you really think that a mom and pop store can survive on a 15% margin, let me put it to you this way: In order for the owner to make enough money to clear $50,000 a year (not including ANY overhead- space, employees, insurance, taxes, utilities, etc...) they have to move $333,333.00 in merchandise. That means their product cost alone is $283,333.00. Once you figure in that rent on a small retail space, hiring a few employees, licensing, point of sale system, taxes... Let me put it this way- my store's nut was about $8000 a month in operational expenses. Using your math, at a 15% markup, the store now needs to sell $973,000 in merchandise in a year in order for the owner to make a living. In in this area, $50,000 isn't any kind of extravagant lifestyle. Now, who in their right mind is going to risk a million dollars to make $50,000? And that's assuming a zero sum.

And yes, Amazon can make due on a 15% markup because they sell millions of dollars in product every hour. Last year they generated $88.9B in NET sales. Not gross- net. They are able to make such a profit off of their electronics library (Kindle books, prime subscriptions, music, software) that they can take next to no profit on physical items. I can't do that. Amazon sells in 1 hour what most stores sell in 10 years.

In short, you have no clue. I hope for your sake that you never go into any sort of retail management position.

Edit to add: Amazon can also demand a lower cost than I can because they can order far more product than any mom and pop could ever dream of. My shop couldn't shell out to pay for $55 apiece for 1000 Armada starters. On the other hand, Amazon could go to FFG and offer to buy 10,000 units if FFG would lower the price to $40 each and not bat an eye. Then they could sell them at $60 each and still make more profit than I could selling them at the exact same price.

Andre, your logic is not working right. Think on it, how much do you pay your employees? Your manager? Your rent? Electricity? Your distributors? The $26 is not profit, not until it gets split among all those things and what is left is profit.

Amazon does not have all of this at the same expense. As stated by Sir Not stated they make MILLIONS of sales a day. They have distribution centers around the US if not the world. So you can't compare an FLGS who at best makes a hundred sales a day of they are lucky (the big FLGS in Portland might do that but they have sever al thousand of square feet of space)

Your math could not be more off. First of all, standard markup in retail is about 100% of wholesale. Now that's not 100% of cost- cost includes shipping. Sideshow is an exception. Secondly, at 249.99 it is not worth stocking the item. Why would I invest $225 (cost plus shipping to the store from the distributer) to make $25? Does that make ANY sort of business sense to you? I could make $25 selling three NECA action figures and my risk is only about $35 for them.

If you really think that a mom and pop store can survive on a 15% margin, let me put it to you this way: In order for the owner to make enough money to clear $50,000 a year (not including ANY overhead- space, employees, insurance, taxes, utilities, etc...) they have to move $333,333.00 in merchandise. That means their product cost alone is $283,333.00. Once you figure in that rent on a small retail space, hiring a few employees, licensing, point of sale system, taxes... Let me put it this way- my store's nut was about $8000 a month in operational expenses. Using your math, at a 15% markup, the store now needs to sell $973,000 in merchandise in a year in order for the owner to make a living. In in this area, $50,000 isn't any kind of extravagant lifestyle. Now, who in their right mind is going to risk a million dollars to make $50,000? And that's assuming a zero sum.

And yes, Amazon can make due on a 15% markup because they sell millions of dollars in product every hour. Last year they generated $88.9B in NET sales. Not gross- net. They are able to make such a profit off of their electronics library (Kindle books, prime subscriptions, music, software) that they can take next to no profit on physical items. I can't do that. Amazon sells in 1 hour what most stores sell in 10 years.

In short, you have no clue. I hope for your sake that you never go into any sort of retail management position.

I just may follow your posts more now. Even if you only have 6.

And 1/3 of them are in this thread!

I tend to be more of a lurker. This is one of those topics that I feel passionately about. I get that we all have a budget, but guess what, so does that shop owner. Just like you may decide that the LGS doesn't deserve your money because you don't get enough bang for your buck, they may well decide that they could decide the same about your game line, their gaming space or their business as a whole.

That said, I hold no malice towards those who buy online. We all have to do what we have to. I buy from many outlets- online, convention dealers, and FLGS. But I make sure that when I do go to play, I spend as much as I would on a few hours at the movies or in a local bar because they are providing me with the same level of entertainment. If you don't feel the same, so be it.

There is actually a store in the are that will not allow you to enter their Armada tournaments unless you bought a core set from them. Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but they sold a good 20 starters as a result...

No I don't think mom and pop stores should sell at 15% I said they should sell at a 50% markup with a $20 max difference or not stock the item.

Please don't misquoted me.

So you have a cost of $200 plus $25 shipping or in other words $225 bucks.... pretty much the same cost if I had just ordering it from Amazon correct?

Andre. . . You really are being dense here. You did not read my post which is the last of page 13.

There is so much more going into this then what a store buys something for and what the make out of it.

Stores actually don't net all of the mark up either. They need to pay distributors who buy the products in less bulk than Amazon so they don't get that immense discount.

Here try this. Go online to Chessex.com . Chessex is a custome dice company. They sell in bulk. Now they usually put on their custom orders what a bulk buy will look like. So buying 100 dice will be more expensive per die than if you bought a 1,000 dice

This concept is called buying in bulk. It is how amazon, costco, etc make the money they do. In the gaming world, you would need most likely to buy several Armada boxes to even get to the First tier of a discount (which they likely only do through special means since they don't want an average person reselling their products illegally.

Secondly, at 249.99 it is not worth stocking the item. Why would I invest $225 (cost plus shipping to the store from the distributer) to make $25? Does that make ANY sort of business sense to you?

lol yah it makes good business sense if you want to make $25 bucks. You said your LGS went under... wonder why =p

Listen I understand what you are saying about risk... but the damage was done remember? you had to Ebay the **** things or whatever it was you did.

So here I am. I got $250 in hand and I want your toy. Do you wan't my money or did you just really like Ebaying things?

Andre, you are purposely being obtuse. Your playing a form of devils advocate and it makes you look the fool.

So do this, stop picking bits and pieces of what you want to read and actually read. Then once you do that leave the discussion before your insults and attacks gets you banned.

Andre, you are purposely being obtuse. Your playing a form of devils advocate and it makes you look the fool.

So do this, stop picking bits and pieces of what you want to read and actually read. Then once you do that leave the discussion before your insults and attacks gets you banned.

To be honest with you, the majority of attacks I've noticed have been against Andre, not from Andre....

They have ranged from calling him dense, saying he is purposefully being obtuse, questioning his age with the intent to say he is immature, saying he is looking like a fool and saying he doesn't even have a valid viewpoint....

There are other examples, but the list there is plenty enough to make my point.

No one here needs to agree with Andre but they sure as heck could ease up on the insults, both direct and veiled towards him.

On to sirnots point about cash flow is king... I agree with that statement very much. My biggest draw into my business was a money loser, but it was what I needed to get people in the salon to sell them money makers. When he asked if it was good sense to sell at $299 product to make $25, I say heck yes! That's cash flow...and while that customer is there, it's time to up sell, create add on sales, interest them in something else, whatever... In my case, I'd imagine I was only able to up sell about 15-20% of the time...maybe even less than that considering how many high school kids used the 3 tans for 3 bucks for their whole preprom tan, but with adults who had some disposable income, getting them in the salon even on a losing sale was worth it because it generated cash flow and a chance at other sales.

Same kind of thing should be happening with flgs...can they match amazon, cool stuff, etc? Nope. Can they get closer to something between cost and msrp than sticking with msrp? Yep.

As far the community aspect...as others have mentioned community gaming existed before shops opened up space within their shops for gaming and tournaments. It was necessary then, nor is it necessary now. It is however, more convenient. So it's up to each person to decide if that convenience is worth subsidizing through higher prices. That play space is offered in an attempt to get customers to buy.

With all that said, I always find it curious why we in the fan community (be it table-top gamers, comics enthusiasts, etc…) feel like haggling needs to be done? Why do we feel MSRP is such a rip-off? You don’t see video-gamers haggling at their local game-stop to drop 30% off of Arkham Knights. I’ve never seen anyone trying to haggle over the price of popcorn at a movie theater (you want to talk about a rip-off?). No one offers $5 for a $6 value meal at McDonalds. It’s only the mom-n-pop shops that have to deal with this phenomenon, and they are the ones who can least afford to take less for their product because of their scale.

Because they do not tell me that the movie is free while charging 50$ for the popcorn to make up for the free movie and then patronize me about how I am an heartless customer that profit from them by watching a movie while not buying pop-corn.

They charge me the movie and they charge me the pop-corn. I pay for what I want to use.

So LGS should just do the same. Charge for the tables and charge for the products. People will pay for what they want to use.

With all that said, I always find it curious why we in the fan community (be it table-top gamers, comics enthusiasts, etc…) feel like haggling needs to be done? Why do we feel MSRP is such a rip-off? You don’t see video-gamers haggling at their local game-stop to drop 30% off of Arkham Knights. I’ve never seen anyone trying to haggle over the price of popcorn at a movie theater (you want to talk about a rip-off?). No one offers $5 for a $6 value meal at McDonalds. It’s only the mom-n-pop shops that have to deal with this phenomenon, and they are the ones who can least afford to take less for their product because of their scale.

Because they do not tell me that the movie is free while charging 50$ for the popcorn to make up for the free movie and then patronize me about how I am an heartless customer that profit from them by watching a movie while not buying pop-corn.

They charge me the movie and they charge me the pop-corn. I pay for what I want to use.

So LGS should just do the same. Charge for the tables and charge for the products. People will pay for what they want to use.

And if they charge for use of their tables they destroy a part of the community aspect. They damage a part of their playerbase.

How many teenagers can afford to pay for a table to play Magic at. They can barely afford the cards, and even then not to the extent the adults can. It also limits how often players come in. It makes each trip to the store something to add to the budget. And I don't know about you, but I go to the Game Store Way more often than I go to the movies. Partially because I'm not charged to use the store space.

(There are also issues with minimum payments and credit card fees which many stores have to deal with, making them have to set strange often overhigh prices for things like playspace when cards are used.)

Charging MSRP is not wrong. It is not ripping you off or being deceitful. It's what many stores have to do to stay in business.

With all that said, I always find it curious why we in the fan community (be it table-top gamers, comics enthusiasts, etc…) feel like haggling needs to be done? Why do we feel MSRP is such a rip-off? You don’t see video-gamers haggling at their local game-stop to drop 30% off of Arkham Knights. I’ve never seen anyone trying to haggle over the price of popcorn at a movie theater (you want to talk about a rip-off?). No one offers $5 for a $6 value meal at McDonalds. It’s only the mom-n-pop shops that have to deal with this phenomenon, and they are the ones who can least afford to take less for their product because of their scale.

Because they do not tell me that the movie is free while charging 50$ for the popcorn to make up for the free movie and then patronize me about how I am an heartless customer that profit from them by watching a movie while not buying pop-corn.

They charge me the movie and they charge me the pop-corn. I pay for what I want to use.

So LGS should just do the same. Charge for the tables and charge for the products. People will pay for what they want to use.

Your analogy is flawed. First off, MSRP is not set by the store. It's the suggested retail price. If they're going above that it's an issue. If they're going below it you're lucky.

And if they charge for use of their tables they destroy a part of the community aspect. They damage a part of their playerbase.

How many teenagers can afford to pay for a table to play Magic at. They can barely afford the cards, and even then not to the extent the adults can. It also limits how often players come in. It makes each trip to the store something to add to the budget. And I don't know about you, but I go to the Game Store Way more often than I go to the movies. Partially because I'm not charged to use the store space.

(There are also issues with minimum payments and credit card fees which many stores have to deal with, making them have to set strange often overhigh prices for things like playspace when cards are used.)

Charging MSRP is not wrong. It is not ripping you off or being deceitful. It's what many stores have to do to stay in business.

If a teenager can't afford a table, they certainly can't afford some of these MSRP prices.

I don't think anyone is saying that MSRP is wrong. It is however, not a very good price point to stick to with, with the advent of internet pricing.

MSRP is just a suggestion of what the product should sell for by the product creator. If a game shop sticks to that suggestion, then I would argue many will suggest they use their own wallets elsewhere. Having a community space to play games isn't dependent upon stores sticking to MSRP in this day and age of sales choice and in fact, never was needed for building and maintaining a community game space.

With all that said, I always find it curious why we in the fan community (be it table-top gamers, comics enthusiasts, etc…) feel like haggling needs to be done? Why do we feel MSRP is such a rip-off? You don’t see video-gamers haggling at their local game-stop to drop 30% off of Arkham Knights. I’ve never seen anyone trying to haggle over the price of popcorn at a movie theater (you want to talk about a rip-off?). No one offers $5 for a $6 value meal at McDonalds. It’s only the mom-n-pop shops that have to deal with this phenomenon, and they are the ones who can least afford to take less for their product because of their scale.

Because they do not tell me that the movie is free while charging 50$ for the popcorn to make up for the free movie and then patronize me about how I am an heartless customer that profit from them by watching a movie while not buying pop-corn.

They charge me the movie and they charge me the pop-corn. I pay for what I want to use.

So LGS should just do the same. Charge for the tables and charge for the products. People will pay for what they want to use.

Your analogy is flawed. First off, MSRP is not set by the store. It's the suggested retail price. If they're going above that it's an issue. If they're going below it you're lucky.

And if they charge for use of their tables they destroy a part of the community aspect. They damage a part of their playerbase.

How many teenagers can afford to pay for a table to play Magic at. They can barely afford the cards, and even then not to the extent the adults can. It also limits how often players come in. It makes each trip to the store something to add to the budget. And I don't know about you, but I go to the Game Store Way more often than I go to the movies. Partially because I'm not charged to use the store space.

(There are also issues with minimum payments and credit card fees which many stores have to deal with, making them have to set strange often overhigh prices for things like playspace when cards are used.)

Charging MSRP is not wrong. It is not ripping you off or being deceitful. It's what many stores have to do to stay in business.

If a teenager can't afford a table, they certainly can't afford some of these MSRP prices.

I don't think anyone is saying that MSRP is wrong. It is however, not a very good price point to stick to with the advent of internet pricing.

MSRP is just a suggestion of what the product should sell for by the product creator. If a game shop sticks to that suggestion, then I would argue many will suggest they use their own wallets elsewhere. Having a community space to play games isn't dependent upon stores sticking to MSRP in this day and age of sales choice and in fact, never was needed for building and maintaining community game space.

I'm betting the average pay of a game store owner is less than or around mine. And I'm not wealthy. If I had kids I'd be very poor. But as is I'm pretty frugal so I make do.

With all that said, I always find it curious why we in the fan community (be it table-top gamers, comics enthusiasts, etc…) feel like haggling needs to be done? Why do we feel MSRP is such a rip-off? You don’t see video-gamers haggling at their local game-stop to drop 30% off of Arkham Knights. I’ve never seen anyone trying to haggle over the price of popcorn at a movie theater (you want to talk about a rip-off?). No one offers $5 for a $6 value meal at McDonalds. It’s only the mom-n-pop shops that have to deal with this phenomenon, and they are the ones who can least afford to take less for their product because of their scale.

Because they do not tell me that the movie is free while charging 50$ for the popcorn to make up for the free movie and then patronize me about how I am an heartless customer that profit from them by watching a movie while not buying pop-corn.

They charge me the movie and they charge me the pop-corn. I pay for what I want to use.

So LGS should just do the same. Charge for the tables and charge for the products. People will pay for what they want to use.

Your analogy is flawed. First off, MSRP is not set by the store. It's the suggested retail price. If they're going above that it's an issue. If they're going below it you're lucky.

And if they charge for use of their tables they destroy a part of the community aspect. They damage a part of their playerbase.

How many teenagers can afford to pay for a table to play Magic at. They can barely afford the cards, and even then not to the extent the adults can. It also limits how often players come in. It makes each trip to the store something to add to the budget. And I don't know about you, but I go to the Game Store Way more often than I go to the movies. Partially because I'm not charged to use the store space.

(There are also issues with minimum payments and credit card fees which many stores have to deal with, making them have to set strange often overhigh prices for things like playspace when cards are used.)

Charging MSRP is not wrong. It is not ripping you off or being deceitful. It's what many stores have to do to stay in business.

If a teenager can't afford a table, they certainly can't afford some of these MSRP prices.

I don't think anyone is saying that MSRP is wrong. It is however, not a very good price point to stick to with the advent of internet pricing.

MSRP is just a suggestion of what the product should sell for by the product creator. If a game shop sticks to that suggestion, then I would argue many will suggest they use their own wallets elsewhere. Having a community space to play games isn't dependent upon stores sticking to MSRP in this day and age of sales choice and in fact, never was needed for building and maintaining community game space.

That entirely depends on where the store is and what they have to do to make rent, eat food, and get to live a normal life. It's their job. They shouldn't just be subsisting off of it. Every dollar they cut off the price is a sacrifice. They shouldn't have to be helping you oay for your games just because you aren't willing to support yoir local economy, and the livelihood of people who already have a hard and somewhat thankless job.(Because seriously, angry gamers are the worst.)

I'm betting the average pay of a game store owner is less than or around mine. And I'm not wealthy. If I had kids I'd be very poor. But as is I'm pretty frugal so I make do.

What do you mean "helping me pay for my games"?

Exercising choice in what a person pays is now considered help in buying that item? Seriously?

Game store shops aren't entitled to your money, my money, or anyone's money. If they are subsisting, then maybe the local economy doesn't have enough interest to support that shop, the shop itself may be poorly run, there is too much competition in that area, or they need to relocate to a part of town that is more affordable/better awareness/etc or any combination thereof.

The argument that every dollar they cut off is a sacrifice is false. Dollar you cut off can be a sacrifice if not done in a way that enhances further sales and increased sales. You don't just cut prices to cut prices. You do it as part of a sales strategy that seeks to encourage more foot traffic, increased add on sales on spot and future return sales.

With all that said, I always find it curious why we in the fan community (be it table-top gamers, comics enthusiasts, etc…) feel like haggling needs to be done? Why do we feel MSRP is such a rip-off? You don’t see video-gamers haggling at their local game-stop to drop 30% off of Arkham Knights. I’ve never seen anyone trying to haggle over the price of popcorn at a movie theater (you want to talk about a rip-off?). No one offers $5 for a $6 value meal at McDonalds. It’s only the mom-n-pop shops that have to deal with this phenomenon, and they are the ones who can least afford to take less for their product because of their scale.

Because they do not tell me that the movie is free while charging 50$ for the popcorn to make up for the free movie and then patronize me about how I am an heartless customer that profit from them by watching a movie while not buying pop-corn.

They charge me the movie and they charge me the pop-corn. I pay for what I want to use.

So LGS should just do the same. Charge for the tables and charge for the products. People will pay for what they want to use.

Your analogy is flawed. First off, MSRP is not set by the store. It's the suggested retail price. If they're going above that it's an issue. If they're going below it you're lucky.

And if they charge for use of their tables they destroy a part of the community aspect. They damage a part of their playerbase.

How many teenagers can afford to pay for a table to play Magic at. They can barely afford the cards, and even then not to the extent the adults can. It also limits how often players come in. It makes each trip to the store something to add to the budget. And I don't know about you, but I go to the Game Store Way more often than I go to the movies. Partially because I'm not charged to use the store space.

(There are also issues with minimum payments and credit card fees which many stores have to deal with, making them have to set strange often overhigh prices for things like playspace when cards are used.)

Charging MSRP is not wrong. It is not ripping you off or being deceitful. It's what many stores have to do to stay in business.

If a teenager can't afford a table, they certainly can't afford some of these MSRP prices.

I don't think anyone is saying that MSRP is wrong. It is however, not a very good price point to stick to with the advent of internet pricing.

MSRP is just a suggestion of what the product should sell for by the product creator. If a game shop sticks to that suggestion, then I would argue many will suggest they use their own wallets elsewhere. Having a community space to play games isn't dependent upon stores sticking to MSRP in this day and age of sales choice and in fact, never was needed for building and maintaining community game space.

That entirely depends on where the store is and what they have to do to make rent, eat food, and get to live a normal life. It's their job. They shouldn't just be subsisting off of it. Every dollar they cut off the price is a sacrifice. They shouldn't have to be helping you oay for your games just because you aren't willing to support yoir local economy, and the livelihood of people who already have a hard and somewhat thankless job.(Because seriously, angry gamers are the worst.)

I'm betting the average pay of a game store owner is less than or around mine. And I'm not wealthy. If I had kids I'd be very poor. But as is I'm pretty frugal so I make do.

What do you mean "helping me pay for my games"?

Exercising choice in what a person pays is now considered help in buying that item? Seriously?

Game store shops aren't entitled to your money, my money, or anyone's money. If they are subsisting, then maybe the local economy doesn't have enough interest to support that shop, the shop itself may be poorly run, there is too much competition in that area, or they need to relocate to a part of town that is more affordable/better awareness/etc or any combination thereof.

The argument that every dollar they cut off is a sacrifice is false. Dollar you cut off can be a sacrifice if not done in a way that enhances further sales and increased sales. You don't just cut prices to cut prices. You do it as part of a sales strategy that seeks to encourage more foot traffic, increased add on sales on spot and future return sales.

Point being, Each Game Store is different. Each has their own necessary price point. And if they choose to be nice and lower their prices all the better for you. But it's still them subsidizing your gaming habits.

Go look into how dollars spent in your locla economy help make your life better. Forget about game stores and look at the advantages of buying local. There are plenty. Your city makes more in taxes. Every dollar you spend flows into the municipality on some level, and the more people that do so the nicer the city. The more services the city can provide. Better bus systems. Better roads. Better sewage maintenance. While every time you buy online that money vanishes.(Which isn't to say online shopping is evil, but use it to get things you can't locally. It's helping everyone around you a little bit at a time to buy locally, starting with the LGS owners and ending with you.)

It's helping everyone around you a little bit at a time to buy locally, starting with the LGS owners and ending with you.

No it's not, not for me and not for I imagine a lot of other people.

I live on the border between Wisconsin and Minnesota, my LGS is in MN, so all the taxes go to a different state, town, county, ect... I don't see a dime of that as improvements of my town. You'd have to have a LGS within 10-15 miles of your house before you'd see any sort of return on tax dollars spent. Also sales taxes go to the State not the County or Town, so buying locally doesn't actually add anything to the town's budget, not directly. That sort of thing is paid for by property taxes or by the state giving a county and town money.

Plus, you're supposed to pay sales taxes to the state on anything you buy online, for many if not most states now.

That said, each store has to figure out what they can manage for prices. So to say MSRP is too much is no more true for any given store then saying they have to charge MSRP. Only the owner really knows their books and none of us can make any sort of reasonable comment on how much they should be charging.

The most we can do is buy there or not, and deal with the effect that decision has.

With all that said, I always find it curious why we in the fan community (be it table-top gamers, comics enthusiasts, etc…) feel like haggling needs to be done? Why do we feel MSRP is such a rip-off? You don’t see video-gamers haggling at their local game-stop to drop 30% off of Arkham Knights. I’ve never seen anyone trying to haggle over the price of popcorn at a movie theater (you want to talk about a rip-off?). No one offers $5 for a $6 value meal at McDonalds. It’s only the mom-n-pop shops that have to deal with this phenomenon, and they are the ones who can least afford to take less for their product because of their scale.

Because they do not tell me that the movie is free while charging 50$ for the popcorn to make up for the free movie and then patronize me about how I am an heartless customer that profit from them by watching a movie while not buying pop-corn.

They charge me the movie and they charge me the pop-corn. I pay for what I want to use.

So LGS should just do the same. Charge for the tables and charge for the products. People will pay for what they want to use.

Your analogy is flawed. First off, MSRP is not set by the store. It's the suggested retail price. If they're going above that it's an issue. If they're going below it you're lucky.

And if they charge for use of their tables they destroy a part of the community aspect. They damage a part of their playerbase.

How many teenagers can afford to pay for a table to play Magic at. They can barely afford the cards, and even then not to the extent the adults can. It also limits how often players come in. It makes each trip to the store something to add to the budget. And I don't know about you, but I go to the Game Store Way more often than I go to the movies. Partially because I'm not charged to use the store space.

(There are also issues with minimum payments and credit card fees which many stores have to deal with, making them have to set strange often overhigh prices for things like playspace when cards are used.)

Charging MSRP is not wrong. It is not ripping you off or being deceitful. It's what many stores have to do to stay in business.

If a teenager can't afford a table, they certainly can't afford some of these MSRP prices.

I don't think anyone is saying that MSRP is wrong. It is however, not a very good price point to stick to with the advent of internet pricing.

MSRP is just a suggestion of what the product should sell for by the product creator. If a game shop sticks to that suggestion, then I would argue many will suggest they use their own wallets elsewhere. Having a community space to play games isn't dependent upon stores sticking to MSRP in this day and age of sales choice and in fact, never was needed for building and maintaining community game space.

That entirely depends on where the store is and what they have to do to make rent, eat food, and get to live a normal life. It's their job. They shouldn't just be subsisting off of it. Every dollar they cut off the price is a sacrifice. They shouldn't have to be helping you oay for your games just because you aren't willing to support yoir local economy, and the livelihood of people who already have a hard and somewhat thankless job.(Because seriously, angry gamers are the worst.)

I'm betting the average pay of a game store owner is less than or around mine. And I'm not wealthy. If I had kids I'd be very poor. But as is I'm pretty frugal so I make do.

What do you mean "helping me pay for my games"?

Exercising choice in what a person pays is now considered help in buying that item? Seriously?

Game store shops aren't entitled to your money, my money, or anyone's money. If they are subsisting, then maybe the local economy doesn't have enough interest to support that shop, the shop itself may be poorly run, there is too much competition in that area, or they need to relocate to a part of town that is more affordable/better awareness/etc or any combination thereof.

The argument that every dollar they cut off is a sacrifice is false. Dollar you cut off can be a sacrifice if not done in a way that enhances further sales and increased sales. You don't just cut prices to cut prices. You do it as part of a sales strategy that seeks to encourage more foot traffic, increased add on sales on spot and future return sales.

And Game Store owners are smart people. They are more than capable of working out where on the supply and demand chart makes them the most money.(Note this is actually above MSRP on many games.) But most don't do that. Most Game Stores work to favor their customers.

Point being, Each Game Store is different. Each has their own necessary price point. And if they choose to be nice and lower their prices all the better for you. But it's still them subsidizing your gaming habits.

Go look into how dollars spent in your locla economy help make your life better. Forget about game stores and look at the advantages of buying local. There are plenty. Your city makes more in taxes. Every dollar you spend flows into the municipality on some level, and the more people that do so the nicer the city. The more services the city can provide. Better bus systems. Better roads. Better sewage maintenance. While every time you buy online that money vanishes.(Which isn't to say online shopping is evil, but use it to get things you can't locally. It's helping everyone around you a little bit at a time to buy locally, starting with the LGS owners and ending with you.)

How is that subsidizing my gaming habits?

Explain that logic to me, because I find it very unusual. Do you also think walmart is subsidizing your deodorant usage if you buy there instead of a full priced grocery store?

Also, explain how it is that they are "being nice" if they lower prices?

As for helping the local economy... What is often misunderstood is how economy works because what is left out of the equation is buying power. If you as a consumer, buy something from another state for a cheaper price than in state, you have increased your buying power. You may then spend your savings on something else, that would not have been purchased at all had you paid the full asking price of a local shop. What you've done then is to create more economic flow. Now that company in another state may buy its products for sale by yet another company from yet another state and they cycle continues.

So let's use a quasi-real world example:

Armada is $99 at the local shop here in kansas. I buy it for $65 from cool stuff located in florida. I just helped the economy in florida with that purchase. But coostuff got their product from ffg in Minnesota. So by making my purchase I have helped a local economy in Minnesota too. But wait, there's more! Now with the "savings" of $35 (I didn't save it, I just never had to spend it) I decide to go to mcdonalds for lunch. I just helped both my local economy with the local franchisee making some money, helped my state through the sales of cows that mcdonalds uses for burgers and helped my home state of Illinois where mcdonalds is headquartered as they receive their franchise fees and cuts from sales of food packaging. But wait, there is even more! Thanks to my purchase (among thousands of other sales), the owner of coolstuff who is an aviation enthusiast decides to buy a personal plane for his recreation. He decides to buy a Cessna which is based in Kansas. This sale helps my local economy.

The idea that money must stay local to help local is often false and misleading. The idea that local money vanishes harkens back to the days of nations imposing tariffs or out and out trade bans has been shown to historically not work and be bad for economies (as a general principle, certain instances it may help). One needs only look at napoleon's continental system or our own colonial (pre USA) trade system dictating where sugar can and can't be purchased and so on to see the failures of the ideas that money must be kept local in order succeed locally.