Okay, I'm going to create a separate thread for this topic, seeing as it's entirely hijacked the Unofficially Official; SW Armada Wave 1, May 12th thread.

Specifically, I wanted to pick up where VanorDM left off, when he replied to me as below:

Most arguing against game-store loyalty and tribute seem to be saying that they don't tend to have good gaming stores in their area, or at all.

My only issue is the kneejerk reaction someone people have to buying online, and their attempts to make it an ethical issue.

Also, in reply to my friend Beatty he said:

...as a whole and you need to realize if you do not financially support those shops they will not let you play there for long.

Sure, and as i've said I don't know how many times now, if you play at a game store you should support that game store by buying things there.

But the kneejerk reaction by some people when 'i buy it online' is that that you're a horrible person for not supporting your LGS, with no thought at all if the person even has a Friendly LGS let alone a local one.

Granted, circumstances differ, individuals and LGSs all have their individual circumstances. There are many instances when one shouldn't make someone else feel guilty for buying a game online. However, I do see that you agree that there are instances where one should buy from a store. Ultimately, I think that Beatty and I are in agreement with you, when we control for all the circumstances.

But maybe I'm wrong. Do you think there is room for peer pressure to buy from brick and mortar stores, presuming those stores are properly run?

But maybe I'm wrong. Do you think there is room for peer pressure to buy from brink and mortar stores, presuming those stores are properly run?

I agree with VanorDM. It's also very easy for peer pressure to turn into moral panic.

Thank you, sir. I actually submitted a request to lock my topic, but the discussion should not die as long as it's positive.

o7

Do you think there is room for peer pressure to buy from brink and mortar stores, presuming those stores are properly run?

Yes, as long as we are aware of what the person's situation is.

If someone comes out and says that they buy 100% of their stuff online, but still play weekly at a LGS. I'd say that applying some peer pressure to that person is completely justified. I don't think they should sell off their collection and turn around and buy everything at the LGS.

But yes they should be encouraged to start buying at least something there, if they're going to play there.

But far too often I see people post 'you should support your LGS' or even go further and start to belittle and attack the person for not doing so. Without even knowing if that person plays at a LGS or even has a Local one at all, or if the LGS is not a very nice place.

I guess my issue is a rush to judgement, of someone whom I both don't know and don't know their situation.

There's also the issue of stock. A number of times someone will want something but their LGS can't get it in, in those cases I again feel the 'support your LGS' is misguided. It's not a matter of if the person would or not, but rather that they can't.

I have made extensive efforts to support my LGS and purchase product from them. However, the store basically supports Magic only. Myself and several other X-wing/Armada/Imperial Assault/Other game players have made multiple attempts to order items through the store that they do not have on the shelves. We have yet to see any of those items. Additionally, they consistently overprice their FFG items. On one occasion it was brought to their attention and the price was just mismarked. On the other hand, they have the FFG X-wing playmats priced at $64.99 each. Approaching double the MSRP. We politely pointed this out to the store and they told us that was the price. The only tournaments they support are for Magic (for which they have something literally every day). Our X-wing playgroup is up to around 7-8 and Armada has at least 5-6 players. We are pretty much forced to buy from online stores to get our gaming products.

Having said that, I try to support them and buy my paints from them. So at this point, we basically just use their play space and rarely purchase anything because if it's not Magic, it's not important.

Thank you, sir. I actually submitted a request to lock my topic, but the discussion should not die as long as it's positive.

o7

I saw that.

Thanks for the update in your OP there.

I'd add that critical can still be positive in nature. I'm not looking to create an echo chamber of people who agree with me and you.

But maybe I'm wrong. Do you think there is room for peer pressure to buy from brink and mortar stores, presuming those stores are properly run?

I agree with VanorDM. It's also very easy for peer pressure to turn into moral panic.

Sure, but it's also easy for people to have long toes on the internet.

Do you think there is room for peer pressure to buy from brick and mortar stores, presuming those stores are properly run?

Yes, as long as we are aware of what the person's situation is.

If someone comes out and says that they buy 100% of their stuff online, but still play weekly at a LGS. I'd say that applying some peer pressure to that person is completely justified. I don't think they should sell off their collection and turn around and buy everything at the LGS.

But yes they should be encouraged to start buying at least something there, if they're going to play there.

But far too often I see people post 'you should support your LGS' or even go further and start to belittle and attack the person for not doing so. Without even knowing if that person plays at a LGS or even has a Local one at all, or if the LGS is not a very nice place.

There's also the issue of stock. A number of times someone will want something but their LGS can't get it in, in those cases I again feel the 'support your LGS' is misguided. It's not a matter of if the person would or not, but rather that they can't.

Yes, all that.

I'd say there's also another. Some people can still help an LGS by buying expansions at the margin, but get over the threshold of the big core set. I was talking to one of my FLGS owners a while back, and he thinks of cheap core sets available online or at big-box stores as a net positive for him, even if he would prefer people buy them from him.

But aside from all that, I think the norm is:

If you at all possibly can, support your FLGS.

(With 'F' meaning both friendly and competent)

I have made extensive efforts to support my LGS and purchase product from them. However, the store basically supports Magic only. Myself and several other X-wing/Armada/Imperial Assault/Other game players have make multiple attempts to order items through the store that they do not have on the shelves. We have yet to see any of those items. Additionally, they consistently overprice their FFG items. On one occasion it was brought to their attention and the price was just mismarked. On the other hand, they have the FFG X-wing playmats priced at $64.99 each. Approaching double the MSRP. We politely pointed this out to the store and they told us that was the price. The only tournaments they support are for Magic (for which they have something literally every day). Our X-wing playgroup is up to around 7-8 and Armada has at least 5-6 players. We are pretty much forced to buy from online stores to get our gaming products.

Having said that, I try to support them and buy my paints from them. So at this point, we basically just use their play space and rarely purchase anything because if it's not Magic, it's not important.

From overhearing side conversations, I also know there are a number of FLGSs who understand that their bread and butter is in MtG, but their passions are for games like ours. In essence, it might be entirely rational for a store to really specialize in MtG and mark up their prices on the other stuff, if they happen to be the monopolist in terms of being the LGS.

Still, if you're using their gaming table, I think it's on you to make it worth their while to keep the bigger gaming tables, because those do take up a lot of floor space.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I think the LGS has to evolve with the times as well. There is some give and take in all relationships.

I always buy something when I visit a game shop - even if it is just a paint bottle or card sleeves. These are things I rarely buy online, though I certainly could.

When I play in a tournament, or a game night, then I buy something relating to that game.

But I also purchase my larger bulk orders at the online shops.

Why? Well, mostly because it is hard to justify spending 20-30% more on larger purchases when I have limits to my available hobby funding

Now, if the LGS was offering a discount - even something like a 10-15% - I'd be purchasing more of my overall gaming product there rather than online.

And I do not think I am alone. This past weekend for free comic book day and May the 4th, our local comic shop had sales - 10-20% discounts on games (and of course comics and toys) and Star Wars related product. I've never seen the store more packed, and their Imperial Assault Ally/Villain expansions were all but sold out (stuff that had been sitting for weeks prior), I managed to nab a Han Solo that was in the wrong place

Yes, I could have gotten that model cheaper at CoolStuffInc, or MiniatureMarket, but I was more willing to make the unplanned purchase because of the sale. And if they would have had the other boosters in stock, I would have walked off with 1 of everything!

I was talking to one of my FLGS owners a while back, and he thinks of cheap core sets available online or at big-box stores as a net positive for him, even if he would prefer people buy them from him.

I think that ties into the idea that players can be just as good as customers, for the store. As I said in the other thread, having a LGS with no Games being played is not very attractive. It's like playing in a empty MMO, except that you can play solo in a MMO. Playing solo at a LGS will just get you funny looks.

So if someone buys Armada online for $54 or even $70 but buy a ship every other week at the LGS, it's a net gain for the store. Sure they lost out on a $100 sale, but if that person wouldn't of bought the game at retail, they'd never buy the expansions either.

Now, if the LGS was offering a discount - even something like a 10-15% - I'd be purchasing more of my overall gaming product there rather than online.

Yeah, mine offers 15% on pre-orders. I know there's another one in town that does 30%, but mine is localler than that one. I can peddle to it. There's also a (very) modest loyalty program that amounts to 4% off.

I think loyalty programs are a great thing, because they establish a relationship. Relationships are really important and they tend to defy cold rational logics.

I wonder if some of the less-friendly LGSs just don't get that, or have a customer base that doesn't respect that sort of thing. I guess the maturity of the customer base would come into question here.

In essence, it might be entirely rational for a store to really specialize in MtG and mark up their prices on the other stuff...

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't agree.

If MtG is that popular, it shouldn't need other games to be marked up to subsidize it. I'd never pay over MSRP just because the store was offering me a place to play.

That said, I can understand that they'd give MtG priority for things like tournaments and table space. If I tried to set up a X-Wing night and they had a big release tournament I can understand that they may want to bump my night.

But if I'm a paying customer, they don't do themselves any favor by pushing me out either. If I'm not much of a customer, because they won't carry what I want to buy... Then they really only have themselves to blame for that. Clearly there's a market for it, one they refuse to tap into for some reason. It's not like they have to buy $5,000 worth of GW stuff as part of their initial order.

I think it's on you to make it worth their while to keep the bigger gaming tables, because those do take up a lot of floor space.

Not sure how it's done elsewhere, but at my LGS, they have table toppers so when we play games they put those out. Otherwise you have room for 2-3 MtG games per table.

Wow, here's something you don't see every day: a heated Internet argument becoming positive and civilized.

Honestly - congratulations guys, I'm digging this community.

I haven't seen peer pressure work until someone has gone through a couple of LGS closures. (For the purpose of this discussion, it'll be assumed to be a FLGS.) Then it may start to dawn on them that as long as they are buying online and just soaking up electricity, the FLGS won't flourish as much as it can. Maybe buying online won't make a game store close, but you may wind up losing space. After all, if there are a couple of tables being taken up by miniature players who never buy anything and my card players, who buy all the time, need the space, the mini players will have to make room. Unless the mini players are willing to lay some cash down for table use, that's just how it has to go. As a store owner/manager, I know who butters my bread.

I find myself purchasing from both. Mainly because my local store has had issues with getting some stuff. But the Armada has been purchased from them only.

If I find myself playing in a tournament somewhere, then I do try to pick something up even if it's something small.

In essence, it might be entirely rational for a store to really specialize in MtG and mark up their prices on the other stuff...

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't agree.

If MtG is that popular, it shouldn't need other games to be marked up to subsidize it. I'd never pay over MSRP just because the store was offering me a place to play.

I don't know what the circumstances are of the store that Asikel mentions. I'm just trying to puzzle together what the rationale might be.

I can see it being the case that you would want to subsidize MtG if doing so would allow you to grab a greater market share of MtG players. Then you run the other stores out of business (or let them specialize in the other games), and then up your prices again.

I think it's on you to make it worth their while to keep the bigger gaming tables, because those do take up a lot of floor space.

Not sure how it's done elsewhere, but at my LGS, they have table toppers so when we play games they put those out. Otherwise you have room for 2-3 MtG games per table.

I guess it depends on the location. My local one has four big miniatures tables that are more-or-less permanent fixtures. They're heavy wood, have a grassy top, and trenches along the side to keep your minis in. Another store puts 2'x4' pieces of painted plywood out on their folding tables.

I appreciate the big heavy tables a lot. They're better height, sturdier, and have those trenches. Still, MtG is their bread and butter, for which they have other tables.

All this because I asked what FLGS was. x.x

All this because I asked what FLGS was. x.x

So it's allll your fault.

Nah, this discussion comes up every couple months normally.

Can a different model work?

What if a FLGS offered discount pricing but charged for the players to enter the gaming area.

What if a store was a blend of gaming area and coffee shop or bar, players are not permitted to bring outside food or drink into the store.

To tell the truth I will always try and buy from My FLGS first. But the trend is online gives us better deals so from what I see the future of game stores is a play area that belongs to a online store. It's a way of giving back to the local players while making money off the online market place. Again it's not perfect but it's the only way FLGS will be able to change and compete in the age of the Internet.

I've always personally subscribed to the "buy something when I play there" support model. Then again, I don't play regularly at any store, and I only recently discovered that there even was one in my area that might consider supporting armada. But when I played Mageknight, thats what I did at Neutral Ground. Everytime I went in for a tournament I bought something. However, when I wanted to make a large purchase, such as a case, I went online because I simply couldn't afford to buy in bulk like that at retail prices in high school. In the end though, I think the store won more than it lost, because if I hadn't been buying online I wouldn't have had the pieces to play competitively, and if I wasn't playing in tournaments I wouldn't have been there in the first place to buy anything.

I suppose this is a way to generate income aside from the products themselves. I think this problem has a different answer in every region. The LGS here is large, well stocked and provides plenty of free space for games (20 4'x6' tables), along with great prices. They also support their games with events and encourage local players to get involved. It is unfortunate that not all people benefit in the same way. So in my area I would encourage supporting them by buying there, but never force the issue. Our Canadian currency is finally falling in value vs the US dollar, and it is now less efficient to buy on-line, IMO. I buy everything there other then the products I can't get through them. FFG is well stocked.

Not everyone is this fortunate so I totally understand when your LGS simply does not have the size or inclination to support all the products they could potentially sell. Some gamers may face the challenge of having to go outside their area to find a good LGS. We have several out of towners that come to our location just because they know its worth the drive.

Anyway, a topic that comes up often, and always worth seeing whats going on in the community at large.

I just wish more FLGS would charge a cover charge to play in their gaming area (and maybe waive it with X dollar purchase). Then we could end the moral debate over playing at the store. I rarely play at the store, but when I do I feel guilty using my toy I bought online.

I'd like to support them for the small amount of use I get out of them, but that isn't going to mean buying everything from them. I don't always need to buy something when I do go, or them might not have what I need in stock.

The whole buy games if you play there reminds me too much of the whole annoying custom of tipping. Making people's livelihood dependent on the good nature of strangers. If all I need is space, I want to buy space.

What if a store was a blend of gaming area and coffee shop or bar, players are not permitted to bring outside food or drink into the store.

I hate how the Armada Forum is filled with more Politcal Union Banter about Delays to Personal Attacks over using FLGS than it is actually about the Game itself.

There are some really negative people on this forum that I used to enjoy coming too to getting my Armada fix when not playing it.

I just wish more FLGS would charge a cover charge to play in their gaming area (and maybe waive it with X dollar purchase). Then we could end the moral debate over playing at the store. I rarely play at the store, but when I do I feel guilty using my toy I bought online.

Good. Use your abashed feelings, boy.

Let the guilt flow through you.

The whole buy games if you play there reminds me too much of the whole annoying custom of tipping. Making people's livelihood dependent on the good nature of strangers. If all I need is space, I want to buy space.

If you were to pay for the space, how much do you think you would have to pay vs how much you would be willing to pay?

The whole buy games if you play there reminds me too much of the whole annoying custom of tipping. Making people's livelihood dependent on the good nature of strangers. If all I need is space, I want to buy space.

Then think of it as paying for the space - except you get to take home a bonus prize