BUT!

you can run Biggs with 6 Z's and 3 points of upgrades.

Bigg's not ideal with Zs. They'd want to shoot down Biggs first anyway. You want Tarn, who's harder to kill anyway, or someone like Jake who can be nuisance. If they focus on either group, the other runs free to do what they want.

BBBBZ was a good build immediately when the Z came out, but was overshadowed by chatters on forums about other ships. The same thing happened to Corran Horn. He was generally disregarded on the forums as because he was in an "over-costed" E-wing - now he's a top tier pilot. The same thing happened to Roark - a good hard counter to the phantom, but he was in one of those "bad, overcosted" HWKs.

Some people refuse to believe it, but list popularity and forum chatter has a strong effect on the meta.

I think that people who think low PS swarms of any sort are dull to fly have not flown many low PS swarms. They are nerve-wracking for the swarm player because they depend on formation flying and anticipating opponent movement. As a primarily Imperial player, keeping a swarm of TIEs in formation with actions is like herding cats. You really have to be aware of obstacles and ship spacing so you don't play bumper-cars with your ships. An actionless TIE is a dead TIE.

Maybe it's nerve-wracking for your Tie Fighters.

As a Z-95 swarmer though, I do like to keep in formation too to keep the firepower, but I don't have to keep in formation. And I don't give a crap about flying through obstacles to keep my guns on the enemy. Shields ftw!

You also don't have the option of Howlrunner, who gives every TIE in range 1 a ghetto Target Lock.

Yeah that's true. I wish they got something similar to that. Ethan may have intended to boost them, but he costs too much.

Battles are won by the unsung soldiers, sailors and airmen. Its the lucky few who get to bask in the glory. But the aces and heroes wouldnt be there in the first place if it werent for their less photogenic comrades.

I fly generic lists regularly as I prefer using solid tactics and planning rather than relying on mechanics or pilot abilities. That said the ace pilots are fun and add something extra to any list. I have flown 4 B lists a lot recently, amongst other lists like 4 rookie Xs with HU and R2, a 5 Z swarm (Zwarm) with Dutch and also a 5 Alpha autoceptor list.

Some of us enjoy using the no-name mooks. They arent flashy, but they are solid and if flown well are capable of a lot more than people think.

I think that people who think low PS swarms of any sort are dull to fly have not flown many low PS swarms. They are nerve-wracking for the swarm player because they depend on formation flying and anticipating opponent movement. As a primarily Imperial player, keeping a swarm of TIEs in formation with actions is like herding cats. You really have to be aware of obstacles and ship spacing so you don't play bumper-cars with your ships. An actionless TIE is a dead TIE.

Maybe it's nerve-wracking for your Tie Fighters.

As a Z-95 swarmer though, I do like to keep in formation too to keep the firepower, but I don't have to keep in formation. And I don't give a crap about flying through obstacles to keep my guns on the enemy. Shields ftw!

You also don't have the option of Howlrunner, who gives every TIE in range 1 a ghetto Target Lock.

Yeah that's true. I wish they got something similar to that. Ethan may have intended to boost them, but he costs too much.

agreed

but remember that, unlike howlie, you take E'athn for more than just his ability to support peeps

Not only is he in an excellent ship (despite crazy high cost), but his ability works on himself

it's just hard to find a good build for him.

E'athn with sensors, ptl, and r2-d2 is hilariously durable but morbidly expensive at 42

At 39 swapping down to the generic r2, it's more tolerable and he does fun things with V.I "the kraken" and 3 talas

StMack, does your ranker use a big enough sample of tourneys atm? Looking at your list it sure does look like BBBZ is King atm ...

Has 211 tournaments in the last 90 days entered. Can up the date range at the bottom of the page if you want more. 289 tournaments in the last 6 months have been entered (fall was pretty slow). 366 in the last year.

I will say one reason it shows up so high is that because there are no room for upgrades there basically isn't any alternative variations of the list so it shows up quite a bit higher than everything else. Meanwhile if you go to the Ships page you'll see the YT-1300 pretty much tied with the B-wing with some other ships not too far behind.

BUT!

you can run Biggs with 6 Z's and 3 points of upgrades.

Bigg's not ideal with Zs. They'd want to shoot down Biggs first anyway. You want Tarn, who's harder to kill anyway, or someone like Jake who can be nuisance. If they focus on either group, the other runs free to do what they want.

Biggs is perfect for Z's, are you insane? for the exact same reason you attack howlrunner first, only with Biggs, it's a game mechanic.

BUT!

you can run Biggs with 6 Z's and 3 points of upgrades.

Bigg's not ideal with Zs. They'd want to shoot down Biggs first anyway. You want Tarn, who's harder to kill anyway, or someone like Jake who can be nuisance. If they focus on either group, the other runs free to do what they want.

Biggs is perfect for Z's, are you insane? for the exact same reason you attack howlrunner first, only with Biggs, it's a game mechanic.

Not really. Any X-Wing is a bigger threat than a Z. You shoot at Biggs first because it makes sense, just like Howlrunner.

It destroys any Fat Turret list, which were extremely popular for a while. It's a wall of HP that a list with only 2 or 3 guns will have a hard time overcoming, and it has extremely high firepower as long as they can their target in arc, which is what the Z is for (blocking escape routes).

I'm not convinced Etahn is that bad, tbh

Naked EBBZZ tosses only one less die, with up to 5 guaranteed crits, which is a huge multiplier. Think of it like paying 10pts for 3.3 Manglers as opposed to ~13

Yes, it lynchpins on Etahn so he's going to be focused, but he doesn't have to close to be effective, and you can run the BBZZ block to screen him pretty well

As a side note I do like BBBB with accuracy correctors instead of the Z

Allows you to fully concentrate on positioning & use actions in that regards, knowing you will always get a minimum of two hits per ship regardless of dice results

Only problem I have with AC bs is FCS Bs...two of them with int agent

Or one with c3po if you're so charismatically void that you cause people of faith to doubt the existence of the human soul

BBBBZ is easy to play, very powerful and tears apart two-ship lists, but boy is it dull.

For more and more people, that part is not important. Coming out of the tournament with a first place is more important than using a list they love and know will have fun all day.

That being said, some players love flying generics and B-Wing, so, I would not say that BBBBZ is automatically a dull list to play. It might not be to your liking, but I'm sure some players have a really good time flying a list like it. And it is not that easy to play, B-Wings can still go down pretty fast if you're not careful.

2.) Generics aren't super ships, so they're fun to fly. It's like I'm actually playing X Wing and not, "My ship has an HLC turret and can large ship boost and barrel roll onto and over asteroids with no consequence" Wing. There is X Wing and then there is super X Wing, I enjoy playing X Wing.

3.) You want boring? Play HLC Super Dash. A ship where maneuvering well does not matter at all, and range bonuses don't matter at all because cannons. At least when swarms dominated maneuvering mattered.

4.) People will play boring lists all day just for some dumb ugly pastel green focus tokens. How anyone can have fun flying a double turret list is beyond me, especially when their opponent is also flying 2 turrets. Why even setup the ships at that point? Just roll dice at each other in pilot skill order until one player wins. What, as if your turrets don't have shots on anything? XD

BBBBZ is easy to play, very powerful and tears apart two-ship lists, but boy is it dull.

For more and more people, that part is not important. Coming out of the tournament with a first place is more important than using a list they love and know will have fun all day.

That being said, some players love flying generics and B-Wing, so, I would not say that BBBBZ is automatically a dull list to play. It might not be to your liking, but I'm sure some players have a really good time flying a list like it. And it is not that easy to play, B-Wings can still go down pretty fast if you're not careful.

1.) I love to fly generics. There is more of an everyman feel thematically to flying them. Not every space battle has Vader and Luke and Chewbacca in it. Also, the more ships that are on the table of the same type, the more beautiful this game looks. Go ahead, put 5 Interceptors into formation. Now put a pancake and a single fighter on the table, boring crap.

2.) Generics aren't super ships, so they're fun to fly. It's like I'm actually playing X Wing and not, "My ship has an HLC turret and can large ship boost and barrel roll onto and over asteroids with no consequence" Wing. There is X Wing and then there is super X Wing, I enjoy playing X Wing.

3.) You want boring? Play HLC Super Dash. A ship where maneuvering well does not matter at all, and range bonuses don't matter at all because cannons. At least when swarms dominated maneuvering mattered.

4.) People will play boring lists all day just for some dumb ugly pastel green focus tokens. How anyone can have fun flying a double turret list is beyond me, especially when their opponent is also flying 2 turrets. Why even setup the ships at that point? Just roll dice at each other in pilot skill order until one player wins. What, as if your turrets don't have shots on anything? XD

BBBBZ is easy to play, very powerful and tears apart two-ship lists, but boy is it dull.

For more and more people, that part is not important. Coming out of the tournament with a first place is more important than using a list they love and know will have fun all day.

That being said, some players love flying generics and B-Wing, so, I would not say that BBBBZ is automatically a dull list to play. It might not be to your liking, but I'm sure some players have a really good time flying a list like it. And it is not that easy to play, B-Wings can still go down pretty fast if you're not careful.

1.) I love to fly generics. There is more of an everyman feel thematically to flying them. Not every space battle has Vader and Luke and Chewbacca in it. Also, the more ships that are on the table of the same type, the more beautiful this game looks. Go ahead, put 5 Interceptors into formation. Now put a pancake and a single fighter on the table, boring crap.

2.) Generics aren't super ships, so they're fun to fly. It's like I'm actually playing X Wing and not, "My ship has an HLC turret and can large ship boost and barrel roll onto and over asteroids with no consequence" Wing. There is X Wing and then there is super X Wing, I enjoy playing X Wing.

3.) You want boring? Play HLC Super Dash. A ship where maneuvering well does not matter at all, and range bonuses don't matter at all because cannons. At least when swarms dominated maneuvering mattered.

4.) People will play boring lists all day just for some dumb ugly pastel green focus tokens. How anyone can have fun flying a double turret list is beyond me, especially when their opponent is also flying 2 turrets. Why even setup the ships at that point? Just roll dice at each other in pilot skill order until one player wins. What, as if your turrets don't have shots on anything? XD

I remember when I was naive and thought my definition of fun was everyone else's definition of fun. Also as an aside top tier level dash requires a ton of thought and maneuvering.

sadly have to agree with AFP

the YT-2400 was a bold, admirable effort on FFG's part to limit the idiocy of new turrets. Honestly, it mostly succeeded (mangler is a very sour sticking point).

Think about it:

*without title and with a crappy 2 die primary, the YT-2400 emphasizes the use of the firing arc

*with title and HLC (the optimal cannon) Dash has a doughnut hole that you can actually play around. Imagine that! An actual reason for positioning to matter in a game about maneuvering and positioning. What a shock !

*while powerful, the YT-2400 has no evades no guarantee on C3po and no means to justify c3po without losing offense (1 crew slot). It has, at best, two agility and a focus (and kyle, while great, sharply limits his maneuverability). That's almost literally infinitely better than the bull we have to put up with against Han. Hell, you can block Dash for incredible benefit since it shuts off his post-maneuvers and PTL. Block Han and you gain basically nothing except he can't evade...wooo~

Granted, for a lot of ships, Dash's speed and maneuverability means he's basically just a turret. But that's the thing, "basically" isn't anywhere near "actually." Dash can't risk getting close to your ships while bearing an HLC, which greatly affects his range of maneuvers throughout the entire game. Compared to Han or a Decimator, neither of which give the slightest **** about you, the outrider is practically an arced ship!

FFg also did try to limit the Decimator i.t.o turret stupidity and emphasize positioning. Problem is, they did it through the incredibly underwhelming torpedo slot (that new shiny, never to be used ion torp ) and a useful but rarely utilized bomb slot plus Oicuun's (sadly rare) and Chiraneau's (range 1-2 limited, but that's not a lot considering how fat and fast he is) ability.

Honestly, I rather see HLC Dashes everywhere than Fat Han or Fat Chiraneau or even mangler determination Leebo (**** that guy)

Also AFP, not everyone's opinion is equal and some people just have bad taste. I used to have a girlfriend that would listen to Nicki Minaj and Iggy Azalea non stop. I think it's safe to say that her definition of fun is lesser than most people's.

2 die primary was a step in the right direction. Eaden Vrill's ability is real interesting from a gameplay perspective.

Also AFP, not everyone's opinion is equal and some people just have bad taste. I used to have a girlfriend that would listen to Nicki Minaj and Iggy Azalea non stop. I think it's safe to say that her definition of fun is lesser than most people's.

2 die primary was a step in the right direction. Eaden Vrill's ability is real interesting from a gameplay perspective.

Innate barrel roll on a large base is an interesting variation.

Cannon slot. A large based turret ship that has an incentive to keep things in arc? No way, that's real cool.

Outrider Title. *sigh*

Dash's pilot ability. *sigh*

Yeah they almost succeeded in making a ship with interesting abilities that adds a lot to the game without breaking it. But just like cloaking and ACD, they also allowed one to break the mechanic and ignore any downsides of it right out of the gate.

Think about it:

*without title and with a crappy 2 die primary, the YT-2400 emphasizes the use of the firing arc

*with title and HLC (the optimal cannon) Dash has a doughnut hole that you can actually play around. Imagine that! An actual reason for positioning to matter in a game about maneuvering and positioning. What a shock !

This kind of presents a similar problem as the pre-nerf Phantom. If Dash moves after you, he can just see where you've moved to and move wherever the hell he wants as long as he didn't get bumped.

That doughnut hole also means absolutely nothing when you have large ship boost and barrel roll. People refer to that ship as the doughnut non-stop but they don't realize that it only ever comes into play if you've beaten it in the PS game and have post-maneuver repositioning abilities, in other words, if you're also playing the 2 super ship meta.

Lmao so please tell me the criteria for those we shall deem to have a lesser opinion? I assume the first criterion will be whether or not it agrees with yours?

Yeah, gotta say I'm with you on the turret-hate but we can't go around claiming people have lesser opinions without holding our charisma under the water until it suffocates

We can say perhaps the others' opinions are built upon less solid foundations, but without some pretty **** convincing evidence we're basically just engaging in a pissing context

Think about it:

*without title and with a crappy 2 die primary, the YT-2400 emphasizes the use of the firing arc

*with title and HLC (the optimal cannon) Dash has a doughnut hole that you can actually play around. Imagine that! An actual reason for positioning to matter in a game about maneuvering and positioning. What a shock !

This kind of presents a similar problem as the pre-nerf Phantom. If Dash moves after you, he can just see where you've moved to and move wherever the hell he wants as long as he didn't get bumped.

That doughnut hole also means absolutely nothing when you have large ship boost and barrel roll. People refer to that ship as the doughnut non-stop but they don't realize that it only ever comes into play if you've beaten it in the PS game and have post-maneuver repositioning abilities, in other words, if you're also playing the 2 super ship meta.

You wana know the difference between Dash going "wheeeeeeeeeee~~~~~~~" and the Phantom going "wheeeeeeee~~~"

Dash has a fat ass...that can be blocked

I think the other reason it took the list a bit to see play is that, by comparison to everything else in wave 4, the z was much less shiny. There were alot of fun and exciting ships to play around with and conventional tie swarm hadnt gone out of style yet. I don't remember exactly when MOV became a thing but if i recall it was wave 4, and this particular swarm iteration benefits heavily from mov.

Also AFP, not everyone's opinion is equal and some people just have bad taste. I used to have a girlfriend that would listen to Nicki Minaj and Iggy Azalea non stop. I think it's safe to say that her definition of fun is lesser than most people's.

2 die primary was a step in the right direction. Eaden Vrill's ability is real interesting from a gameplay perspective.

Innate barrel roll on a large base is an interesting variation.

Cannon slot. A large based turret ship that has an incentive to keep things in arc? No way, that's real cool.

Outrider Title. *sigh*

Dash's pilot ability. *sigh*

Yeah they almost succeeded in making a ship with interesting abilities that adds a lot to the game without breaking it. But just like cloaking and ACD, they also allowed one to break the mechanic and ignore any downsides of it right out of the gate.

Think about it:

*without title and with a crappy 2 die primary, the YT-2400 emphasizes the use of the firing arc

*with title and HLC (the optimal cannon) Dash has a doughnut hole that you can actually play around. Imagine that! An actual reason for positioning to matter in a game about maneuvering and positioning. What a shock !

This kind of presents a similar problem as the pre-nerf Phantom. If Dash moves after you, he can just see where you've moved to and move wherever the hell he wants as long as he didn't get bumped.

That doughnut hole also means absolutely nothing when you have large ship boost and barrel roll. People refer to that ship as the doughnut non-stop but they don't realize that it only ever comes into play if you've beaten it in the PS game and have post-maneuver repositioning abilities, in other words, if you're also playing the 2 super ship meta.

Lmao so please tell me the criteria for those we shall deem to have a lesser opinion? I assume the first criterion will be whether or not it agrees with yours?

I think the criteria is to prefer playing ships where maneuvering matters in a game that's otherwise based entirely upon maneuvering. Turrets strip a significant portion of the game away. Certain turret ships like Y Wings or HWKs or the ORS are interesting deviations because they actually have downsides in addition to their benefits, unlike Super Dash.

Beethoven's 6th, or a 3 year old banging a wooden spoon onto a metal pan? Isn't it safe to say that Beethoven's 6th is better music?

You wana know the difference between Dash going "wheeeeeeeeeee~~~~~~~" and the Phantom going "wheeeeeeee~~~"

Dash has a fat ass...that can be blocked

I agree, it's not as obnoxious as the pre-nerf super phantom but it's still quite obnoxious.

If turrets are so bad and surely strip such a huge significant part of the game away then why does FFG continue to use them and top level players use them? If they were as you said they were then anyone could use them and win tournaments and that's just not true.

Do I even need to address how dumb that analogy is?

not to speak for goomba, but FFG seems to be consistently moving away from fat turret-hood since the corvette

the YT-2400 plays nothing like fat turret. The Decimator tries to play nothing like it, but the non-ysanne upgrades included with it are just too weak compared to loading it up with mashed potatoes and gravy (ysanne is the gravy)

FFG has wisely refrained from releasing large turreted ships in S&V for two waves now, instead focusing on the infinitely more reasonable 2ndary weapon turrets

FFG has released a new primary weapon turret ship...with 2 dice on a small base ship that costs 23 points for only 1 more health than a B-wing, plus a new unique action that doesn't let it shoot, and a new 2ndary weapon turret that's range 2-3

pretty sure the only reason the mistake of fat turrets continue to exist is because either fixing them is too much a pain in the ass to be worth it (changing the central mechanic) or because we all know how FFG loathes fixing mistakes in post (hence all the fixes via new expansions and very rarely straight erratas ala fat ship roll)

Search your feelings fickle you know eventually scum will have its own 3 dice primary turret. If you only knew the power of the turrets side.

the power of the turrets side would be to kick me out of X-wing and further into Armada

In Armada, I get too look at fat han and go